Dark-wave/modern/EDM music creation for dummies?

[CyberGene]

I have a side little "project" with two friends of mine. We're good at drinking beer together, never failed at that since college, on a weekly basis... 🤣 Anyway, we've had this bright idea (maybe we were too drunk) to also try making some music together. Now, I'm an (intermediate amateur) classical pianist with a certain jazz/funk background, the second guy is not a musician but can sing pretty well some Depeche Mode stuff and the third guy plays bass in an amateur church band 😀 So, nothing in common after all. Besides we all love Depeche Mode. And want to make similar music: dark wave, electronica, EDM, etc.

 

Now, the expectations are mostly towards me since I'm most experienced with keys, especially synths (I can program my own analog-style patches, etc.), I know how to record some tracks in Logic Pro X. But that's about it. I tried to create some modern music but simply don't know where to start from. Tried to sequence some drum patterns in Logic but they are rather pathetic, sequenced some tracks but my mind is always working more in the traditional bass-harmony-melody way.

 

Is there any chance a (way too) traditional guy like me to learn making more modern music? What is needed as skills? Which programs to use? Or hardware? What would be the easiest way to make this paradigm shift from traditional harmonic/melodic type of music to more pattern/rhythm/sound/FX oriented one? I'm not even sure I may need my keyboard, I see some videos where some youngsters are using pads to enter notes/scales and the rest is done by the machine 🤪 Maybe I'm just too old for this sh*t after all...

 

I found some interesting suite of generative sequencer/drum/riff apps: https://audiomodern.com

Any experience with it? Any other suggestion for generative apps that can help more easily produce modern music?

[timwat]

I don't know if this will be helpful, but I'd start by really soaking your head into Cocteau Twins, Siouxie, Clan of Xymox and early Dark Wave to really drink in the ethos. 

 

I've recorded tracks for a friend's dark wave / goth project. When I was involved, it struck me that like most genres, there is the mechanical way of looking at recognizable musical components - but with some genre like punk, goth, and dark wave, that can lead traditionally experienced players like me down the wrong path. It's like listening to Elizabeth Fraser and concluding that to make Cocteau Twins you have to create a new abstract language. Or just soak everything in reverb. Those components are there, and I'm missing the point.

 

There's a mood and an ethos and a sense of exploring a side of things with equal parts shadow, light, and menace that lives inside all of this music, it seems to me. The devices, recording methods, and tools are all secondary.

 

Maybe I'm missing the point of your question entirely, and I'm sorry if I am. But over the years, I've found when I'm stepping into an unfamiliar genre, I have to understand the roots and branches before I start making music decisions. Sort of like Sonny Rollins when he said he couldn't solo on a tune if he didn't know the lyrics.

 

 

[CyberGene]

@timwatthank you for the reply. Well, maybe I didn't ask it right, I'm pretty familiar with that music as a listener. I may have listened to Depeche Mode, Massive Attack, Underworld equally as much as I listen to classical music and jazz. It's in my head and I can even imagine my own similar music to a certain degree but don't know how to actually create it and approach it. I've been too much into playing mostly classical music, or jazzy/funky stuff in a band and my mind is too stiffened thinking in chords and scales, as well as in mastering particular instrument technique, licks, etc.. I'm wondering if someone with a more traditional background has attempted approaching modern styles and what has worked for them. For instance, do you just try what's in your head, like sequence it in tracks, or do you just start messing around with drum machines, sequences, synths and leave it to chance to find something that inspires you to move it forward. And if so, what kind of software. Also, rhythms really baffle me, I'm wondering if producers really sequence them from scratch or are based on ready made ones or generative sequencers, etc. But you may be right that I am thinking it wrong that it depends on equipment and software, when it's actually more just a state of mentality?

[JamPro]

"Tried to sequence some drum patterns in Logic but they are rather pathetic,....."

 

Ummm....have you listened to much EDM?  The drum patterns are all pathetic, even on the biggest hits.

 

So your first lesson in EDM is: Kick drum on every beat - for variety it is allowed to have the Kick drum only on the first and third beats.

 

And yeah, it sounds really pathetic.

 

FYI: the vast majority of people creating EDM are not musicians playing an instrument.  They are non-musicians working on software - which is exactly why musicians listen to those drum patterns and think it sounds really pathetic.

 

Next time you and your friends get together for beer, bring a laptop, start making some EDM, and stop worrying about who is going to play what.

[JamPro]

"I'm wondering if someone with a more traditional background has attempted approaching modern styles and what has worked for them."

 

I recommend starting with a YouTube search "how to make EDM".  You'll find lots of videos with examples of "authentic" EDM - some will have links to samples you can download.  Start by trying to copy one of those songs on your own.  You'll pick up lots of tricks of the trade.

[CyberGene]

5 minutes ago, JamPro said:

Ummm....have you listened to much EDM?  The drum patterns are all pathetic, even on the biggest hits.

 Haha, well, you're right 😀

 

BTW, I used EDM in the title but I'm really asking more about wave, dark wave, trip-hop, industrial, etc. Some patterns there are very creative IMO, not just four on the floor.

[timwat]

Thanks for clarifying, Gene. That makes a lot of sense.

 

I remember when I laid down drums for the dark wave / goth project, I decided to go drum-by-drum, manually, and build loops that way. What really struck me was how Eno / oblique strategies type of approach yielded better results (for drums, synths, and everything else I recorded) than my typical finger-happy, more traditional music type of way - which sounds maybe similar to what your first efforts have been like.

 

Much harder to stop and commit to "enough is enough" with this kind of music. But better, I think.

[o0Ampy0o]

Why have you decided EDM is what you want to create? Just from what I gather from your posts here you don't seem to listen to it. It is pretty basic of all genres to my senses at least. You said you program patches. In the process have you ever heard something that triggered a melody in your head and explored that? I go through presets and hear potential. Of all genres it seems that everything could come out exploration and experimenting with ideas along the way. 

[ProfD]

Whenever a musician decides to get into some other style of music especially from a production standpoint...do homework.   

 

Listen to EDM tracks.  Deconstruct and put it back together.  Get a feel for the vibe of the style.

 

Every type of music has a certain flavor(s).  The key (no pun intended) is tapping into it. 😎

 

 

[CyberGene]

Just now, o0Ampy0o said:

Why have you decided EDM is what you want to create?

Yeah, on a second thought I really shouldn't have used EDM at all. While I'm also interested collaterally in EDM too, because some of the bands I mean also make EDM (for instance Underworld), it's mostly dark-wave, trip-hop, synth-wave, synth-pop, industrial that I'm interested in.

[o0Ampy0o]

Does The Chrystal Method fit into this? They have a hard driving drum presence. EDM usually is ongoing dance X rave  vibe. There are so many variations. You could just start with a patch and build on where your imagination takes you then determine the niche later. Beer may not be the best choice for anything creative worth keeping once you sober up. 🙂

[CyberGene]

6 minutes ago, o0Ampy0o said:

Does The Chrystal Method fit into this?

Ohh, yeah!!! I must admit I haven't listened to them for years and should refresh myself but there were times that I would listen to them on repeat. Of course Prodigy as well, and The Propellerheads, Chemical Brothers, etc. but I guess all that is more big-beat, if I'm not mistaken. 

 

As for EDM, there's stuff there that I like nevertheless, like Insomnia by Faithless, or Children by Robert Miles. Huge fan of Drum'n'Bass too, which is also part of EDM but I'm not sure it's good for vocals.

[Tusker]

2 hours ago, CyberGene said:

What is needed as skills?

 

I agree that the genre's aesthetic/feel is crucially important. So too are skills and workflow. New wineskins for new wine.

 

In Logic Pro X, I think the most EDM friendly tools to master are drum machine designer, step sequencer and session (clip) view. Check out Eli Krantzberg's little example below. Hopefully these workflows will help ...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[David Emm]

I think your "problem" is described perfectly by Jerry the K as "micro-genres." EDM is too many "different" things, yet a lot of them are such close cousins, its sometimes like inbreeding. Tusker's post above is an excellent start. I'm a Logic Pro X fan, so I'd say just build a mock-up from the ample supply of beats, fine-tune it with your pals and then decide if you want to enhance that as your base or start fresh. I often get good results from using a simple canned beat as a metronome and then adding things by hand. If someone can't creditably emulate Depeche Mode, they don't need a synth, they need a kazoo. If you can emulate Ozric Tentacles, you need a BIGGER synth!    

 

There's no specific piece of gear to recommend, as any two or three halfway decent synths can cover your needs easily. You wouldn't choose a MiniBrute for solo piano, but its wide open otherwise. The synth that can emit a ripping lead can also generate fluffy little clouds. Its especially true of bigger synths, such as Roland's FA-06, Serum or UVI's Falcon.   

 

Generative options don't really make music, just a) appealing alternatives to white noise and b) good starting points if you want to add your own layers or better yet, melodies. Some can be tweaked in colorful ways that will inspire you, but I think you should stick to the beat basics in Logic's libraries, at least until you hit a few AHA! moments and find your footing. Hope that helps, at least a little.    

[Konnector]

There's a ton of electronic music and how/to's on YouTube.  Start there. Get a handle on electronic drum production, loops, sounds, etc. as that's always a big part of it....(or else start with 3rd party loops.) Electronic music is created "in the box" for the most part these days. It's mostly programming as opposed to actual performance. A part of it is sound design which can run deep, depending on what sort of EDM you pursue. There's a lot to learn to do it well. There's a plethora of great free synths and fx plug-ins out there to download these days though to put it all together. All you really need is a good DAW, some clever ideas and a lot of time to experiment. All the extra "gear" requirements you can download. 

[AROIOS]

9 hours ago, CyberGene said:

...

Any experience with it? Any other suggestion for generative apps that can help more easily produce modern music?

EDM is all about sound design and mixing techniques.

You can:
1) watch tutorials on sound design and mixing geared towards dance.
2) check out the massive collections of canned materials on Loopmasters.com and Splice.com
3) go by feel and invent your own sub-genre

[UnderGroundGr]

3 weeks ago, my new dark synth/electro rock band released our first maxi single.

I wrote the music, programmed and mixed in Logic. I used Arturia and Logic synths. For the drums i used Reel machines(addictive drums).

 

 

My piano teacher's band(i am a keyboard assistant to them) called Incirrina, and is one of the best underground European dark wave bands. They work with Akai mpc live for drums and analog synths(minimoog, korg prlogue) for the sounds. Check them...

 

 

I believe, as everyone said above, that you can find many tools to work. You must decide what you want to play/write and to be creative...

[CyberGene]

3 hours ago, UnderGroundGr said:

My piano teacher's band(i am a keyboard assistant to them) called Incirrina, and is one of the best underground European dark wave bands. They work with Akai mpc live for drums and analog synths(minimoog, korg prlogue) for the sounds. Check them...

Thanks, both examples are excellent! I’ve never heard of Incirrina but I liked that song and will check them out for sure. It’s a bit old-school dark-wave but still within the domain I’m mostly interested in 👍🏻 Do they use the Akai to manipulate the rhythms in real-time or it’s preprogrammed and they just use it as a player? I’m wondering to what degree a laptop with Logic is better than an Akai or vice versa. I’m afraid the Akai is just a DAW in a box but might be wrong. 

[UnderGroundGr]

37 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

Thanks, both examples are excellent! I’ve never heard of Incirrina but I liked that song and will check them out for sure. It’s a bit old-school dark-wave but still within the domain I’m mostly interested in 👍🏻 Do they use the Akai to manipulate the rhythms in real-time or it’s preprogrammed and they just use it as a player? I’m wondering to what degree a laptop with Logic is better than an Akai or vice versa. I’m afraid the Akai is just a DAW in a box but might be wrong. 

Thanks for your kind words, very happy you like the songs. Incirrina use akai as a player but George do drums breaks both from akai and from 2 Roland's percussion pads. Many times take a Boss looper pedal instead of the akai(when they play abroad).

 

I set Electrinity's live shows to a macbook. I use mainstage for all synth parts, backing tracks, bass and vocal effects. A lot of work but we have a nice result. We have not play live yet so i have time to experiment...

Yes, akai is something like a DAW in a box. It's powefull and stable. It has it's learning curve. If someone do not want to work with DAWs and computers, it is an excellent alternative...

[Stokely]

I've found that if I have to look up what a genre is, I may not be qualified to write music in it   

More seriously, it's tough to break yourself out of ruts.  For example, a few times I've settled in to do some "ambient" chill music.  Inevitably a beat starts up and it starts to turn into something more like Peter Gabriel (in style, if not quality).   

[stoken6]

3 hours ago, Stokely said:

a few times I've settled in to do some "ambient" chill music.  Inevitably a beat starts up and it starts to turn into something more like Peter Gabriel (in style, if not quality).   

I'd probably call that a win.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Mighty Motif Max]

My biggest tip is to think in terms of riffs, or "hooks" when it comes to modern electronic music, although this fits more with trance/edm/house/chill etc than more alternative forms. Also think evolving textures vs verse-chorus-bridge + melody song format - this is especially true for alternative/experimental electronic music.

[KuruPrionz]

Throw down a simple loop of any type to keep time and then go all "beat box" with your buddies (that's making drum sounds with your mouth using a close up microphone). 

If you cup your hand over the back while tracking it will get very boomy. One of you be the "kick", one the "snare" and one the "weirdo-butt crazy sounds". Record it.

 

Do that for about 3-4 minutes with minor variations by all 3 and you'll have your beat. Add a simple bass synth part, one note that evolves and hits on the one. 

Change that note in one spot on the song, that's your bridge. Record all that.

 

All 3 of you write lyrics simultaneously on your own notepads. Be stupid, make up anti-social nonsense. 

Compile that and choose the best stuff for the verses and the worst stuff for the chorus and song title. It's important at this point to not be ashamed of yourselves and allow whatever comes forth. Sing a bunch of stuff, including backup vocals. Record the singing.

 

Work on a mix, if it ends up that you need more texture, flip some parts backwards, loop them and fade them in and out. 

 

Finally, add a delay. Done.

[EricBarker]

“Dark Wave” is a pretty broad genre. It has been applied to everything from completely electronic DJ’d material to “The Cure”. But the quintessential band I think of when I hear the term Dark Wave is “Ladytron”, which is kind of a hybrid of traditional band with sequencing. Lots of real live performance stuff. If you’re not familiar, check them out, they’re fantastic and work really hard.

 

If you can convince them to find a real live drummer, even if they play an electronic kit, that can make stage workflow so much more relaxed and simpler.

[KuruPrionz]

While what I spoke of above may not be the final product, it will relieve the hesitancy I'm detecting in Cyber Gene's posts and it will put all 3 friends on a even basis creatively. 

You can't get there by "thinking", there is no "there" there. 

 

 

After that, it will be easy and fun. Or, you might nail it off the get-go. 

Here is an example a friend and I made one evening when we borrowed a keyboard sampler. I wrote the "lyrics" and recited them. 

Both of us made loops then we compile (just piled?) the whole thing together and called it done. 

 

"Morning Came"

[Iconoclast]

While not really that dark, and actually really popular, another band you might listen too is Metric. Their stuff is really stripped down and simple 80s ish synthwave production, mixed with some really good songwriting. While there is some guitar, it's really sparse and simple to play.  Their earlier stuff is really simple.  Try this as one of their darker tones:  The first three of this album taken as a single piece is really excellent IMHO.
 

 

[D. Gauss]

Dark wave?  (depeche mode, NIN, Ministry, Banshees, cure etc.?)  you're gonna need a bit more than beer.  a laptop, a 49 key controller and a big bag of heroin should get you started in that vein (pun intended), but...

you probably won't have a hit right away, as your teen creative angst is long since gone, which will lead to depression, which will require more drugs to quell it, which will require pawning the laptop and keyboard, which in turn will dampen your music making abilities, which will lead to further need of more drugs, and more things to pawn like your car, your cat, etc. 

 

[mpn_user7629]

On 2/23/2023 at 11:03 PM, EricBarker said:

...the quintessential band I think of when I hear the term Dark Wave is “Ladytron...

 

think they were also called Electro-clash. 

 

 

For OP. you could look into using a hardware Groovebox? 

 

 

 

[CyberGene]

9 hours ago, mpn_user7629 said:

For OP. you could look into using a hardware Groovebox? 

Yeah, I’ve been researching MC-101/707, MPC One/Live, Digitakt/Syntakt and the just announced Roland SH-4D. Still not sure if I will be able to cope with such a workflow and whether it’s better/easier than using a computer 🧐 

 

P.S. Here’s an interesting quote from the description of the Apple Music Dark Wave Playlist:

 

Dramatic, alluring, and dangerous, darkwave represents a shadowy alliance of styles snaking through underground rock from the ‘70s onward. Born from the doleful post-punk and goth sounds of Joy Division, Bauhaus, and Siouxsie and the Banshees, darkwave established itself as a brooding counterpoint to peppier strains of early-’80s New Wave. Its particulars varied greatly at first, with wiry punk minimalism balanced by opulent synths, but thanks to The Cure and Cocteau Twins, certain standards soon emerged: minor keys, cavernous reverb, and keyboards as plush as a coffin’s red velvet lining. Eighties darkwave channeled widespread Cold War dread, but the fall of the Wall didn’t dispel the gloom. A new generation of bands, like Black Tape for a Blue Girl, explored ethereal atmospheres and theatrical inclinations, while ’00s alt-rock crossovers like She Wants Revenge carried darkwave into the charts. It’s a style as enduring as angst itself.

[Koobenot]

@CyberGene If I were you, I'd just do a cover of a song that I like in that genre and try to mimic it as close as possible. In the process of covering, you'll learn a lot about sounds and also you'll defenitelly do something a little bit more different than the original - that would be a sign of your style!  

 

Start simple - do the drums first, then the bass, then the synths etc. Just import your favourite song in Logic and start little by little - nothing can go wrong.