Numa Player, basic but useful?

[Paul Woodward]

So, this is available for iphone, ipad and Mac:

https://www.studiologic-music.com/products/numaplayer/

 

Four basic engines but all can be layered and split as you like with insert and master effects. And its free. 

Might be ideal if you don't want a stack of apps and you want to use an i device in your setup. Sounds are pretty good. Some decent keys for your DAW there as well.

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, Paul Woodward said:

So, this is available for iphone, ipad and Mac:

https://www.studiologic-music.com/products/numaplayer/

 

Four basic engines but all can be layered and split as you like with insert and master effects. And its free. 

Might be ideal if you don't want a stack of apps and you want to use an i device in your setup. Sounds are pretty good. Some decent keys for your DAW there as well.

That’s a very nice offering as added value to their controllers! 
339mb on iOS.  

[AnotherScott]

Some earlier discussion at https://forums.musicplayer.com/topic/181443-numa-player/#comment-2886666 though the app has been updated a bit since then.

 

[D. Gauss]

been running it on my ipad since the day it was released. works great for me.  the bonehead simple interface is great. so easy to get around.

[brenner13]

Yup.

[Reezekeys]

I tried it, deleted it, and thinking they may have improved it I just tried it again - and deleted it again.

 

I know, one shouldn't complain about a free program, but I'm getting an "emperor has no clothes" vibe from the posts here. Far from me to presume what makes any iOS virtual instrument apps useful to others, but... taking price out of the equation and only comparing sound quality with other apps that offer these kinds of sounds, there are quite obvious deficiencies, to my ears at least. Most of the sounds appear to have only one velocity layer and there's no velocity curve adjustment that I saw, so softly played notes are often way too soft (imo). Again, it's free so what can you really say? If you like it, end of story!

[ElmerJFudd]

24 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

I tried it, deleted it, and thinking they may have improved it I just tried it again - and deleted it again.

 

I know, one shouldn't complain about a free program, but I'm getting an "emperor has no clothes" vibe from the posts here. Far from me to presume what makes any iOS virtual instrument apps useful to others, but... taking price out of the equation and only comparing sound quality with other apps that offer these kinds of sounds, there are quite obvious deficiencies, to my ears at least. Most of the sounds appear to have only one velocity layer and there's no velocity curve adjustment that I saw, so softly played notes are often way too soft (imo). Again, it's free so what can you really say? If you like it, end of story!

All sounds are created with about 250mb of samples.  It’s the equivalent of a ROMpler circa 1990.  
 

For comparison, Korg Module Pro has about 1gb of samples at install. 

[jejefunkyman]

Yes, I have also tried it and immediately deleted it. I didn't like the sounds at all. But you know what they say about sound preferences 😁

[Paul Woodward]

I can't see it replacing Module as my iPad choice but, if you were integrating an iPad say for rehearsals which is what I use one for, and dont want to spend any more, its decent enough for that 🙂

[drawback]

I tried it and deleted it the first time, and forgot it was even available til now. I’d say it was probably worth the price 😉

[AnotherScott]

33 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

All sounds are created with about 250mb of samples.  It’s the equivalent of a ROMpler circa 1990.  
 

For comparison, Korg Module Pro has about 1gb of samples at install. 

I think you're looking at 1990 through rose-colored glasses. ;-) Korg M1 and Emu Proteus had a whopping 4mb. Yamaha SY55 had 2 mb. :-) Kurzweil probably led the pack, the K2000 had 8mb.

 

Even earlier this century, 250 mb would have been a lot. That's a good deal more than a Motif or Motif ES, Fantom/Fantom-S/Fantom-X, the entire Triton series, Kurzweil PC3 series... you might have forgotten how recently even pretty high end boards could have, say, 64-128 mb. (Even today, I think you'll find 256 or less in a Roland Juno DS, Yamaha MX, or Korg Kross.)

[ElmerJFudd]

49 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

I think you're looking at 1990 through rose-colored glasses. 😉 Korg M1 and Emu Proteus had a whopping 4mb. Yamaha SY55 had 2 mb. 🙂 Kurzweil probably led the pack, the K2000 had 8mb.

 

Even earlier this century, 250 mb would have been a lot. That's a good deal more than a Motif or Motif ES, Fantom/Fantom-S/Fantom-X, the entire Triton series, Kurzweil PC3 series... you might have forgotten how recently even pretty high end boards could have, say, 64-128 mb. (Even today, I think you'll find 256 or less in a Roland Juno DS, Yamaha MX, or Korg Kross.)

Pitiful. It’s a wonder anyone was able to make music with those Stone Age digital instruments.
 

Actually the reason I threw 90s out there was because this app’s piano sounds a lot like my old EMU Proformance.  ROM: 2MB (15 samples at 16-bit) I believe released in 1990.  

[Reezekeys]

3 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

I can't see it replacing Module as my iPad choice but, if you were integrating an iPad say for rehearsals which is what I use one for, and dont want to spend any more, its decent enough for that

 

The non-"Pro" version of Module is free and comes with their basic acoustic piano, which impressed me enough to start a thread about it three years ago (here if you have time to kill). Much superior to the piano in this Numa Player app, imho of course.

 

I never upgraded to the Pro version, but the free Module lets you buy the add-ons so I added Scarbee Rhodes.

[Reezekeys]

2 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

I think you're looking at 1990 through rose-colored glasses. 😉 Korg M1 and Emu Proteus had a whopping 4mb. Yamaha SY55 had 2 mb. 🙂 Kurzweil probably led the pack, the K2000 had 8mb.

 

I have an original Ensoniq Mirage, from around 1984. That piano used the entire memory space of the instrument: all 128K of it! I think this Numa app might have the edge over the Mirage!

[Paul Woodward]

11 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

 

The non-"Pro" version of Module is free and comes with their basic acoustic piano, which impressed me enough to start a thread about it three years ago (here if you have time to kill). Much superior to the piano in this Numa Player app, imho of course.

 

I never upgraded to the Pro version, but the free Module lets you buy the add-ons so I added Scarbee Rhodes.

Are you still using the A800? If so, what velocity setting are you using? I have module and just cannot get the acoustic pianos to ‘respond’ quite right.

[marino]

I appreciate a free library of basic sounds, but I can only confirm that Numa Player doesn't come close to anything resembling a professional level. Harsh, compressed, no soul. I have installed it, tried all the sounds once, then never used it.

[CyberGene]

What you forget about these old romplers with 2MB memory when compared to modern instruments is the sound designers went our of their way to program a nice sound through combining a short sampled attack with multiple layers of filtered/enveloped transients, like e.g. the D50 or JD-800, etc. They had to be very creative and while ultimate realism was not achievable due to the memory constraint, they nevertheless created great sounding synth or semi-acoustic patches.

 

Nowadays they just sample the real instruments and rely on having unlimited memory. And if they are constrained by memory, would just sample one key per octave, or loop it badly and call it a day. And you end up with 256 MB full of cr*p.

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, CyberGene said:

What you forget about these old romplers with 2MB memory when compared to modern instruments is the sound designers went our of their way to program a nice sound through combining a short sampled attack with multiple layers of filtered/enveloped transients, like e.g. the D50 or JD-800, etc. They had to be very creative and while ultimate realism was not achievable due to the memory constraint, they nevertheless created great sounding synth or semi-acoustic patches.

 

Nowadays they just sample the real instruments and rely on having unlimited memory. 

What was revolutionary about the D50 was what I think you're trying to explain there... it was a sampled real attack spliced onto a synthesized sound. But nobody other than Roland did that. (I imagine they patented it.)

[Reezekeys]

10 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

Are you still using the A800? If so, what velocity setting are you using? I have module and just cannot get the acoustic pianos to ‘respond’ quite right.

 

I know what you're talking about, I've struggled occasionally with getting these settings right. Right now my A800 setting is 1 - MEDIUM (the second setting, below):

 

 

I don't use Module for acoustic piano now, but remember that for both the stock Korg acoustic piano and the Scarbee rhodes, I needed to program a velocity curve in the standalone Module that looked something like this, where my lower velocities got a little boost:

 

 

My i-device setup has evolved to where all my virtual instruments are run as AUv3 plugins in AUM, but the free version of Module didn't give me this velocity curve adjustment when run as an AUv3. What I do now is first route my A800's midi through the Midiflow app and program velocity curves there, then send the midi to AUM and my pianos. I have separate curves programmed for my acoustic piano (in Virsyn AudioLayer) and the Scarbee rhodes I use in Module. The curves are much more programmable in Midiflow than in Korg Module and I've been able to dial things in to where my pianos are feeling good to play - but it definitely took some work to get there!

[AnotherScott]

I think a lot of non-hammer actions will never play piano well, no matter how you set the velocity curves. The problem isn't on the software side.

[Reezekeys]

3 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

I think a lot of non-hammer actions will never play piano well, no matter how you set the velocity curves. The problem isn't on the software side.

 

In my opinion non-hammer actions don't play piano well only to the extent that a piano player can't (or won't) adjust to a non-hammer action. Whatever engine is making the piano sound, it's receiving a midi velocity number between 1 and 127 and doesn't care if the notes came from a weighted, semi-weighted or unweighted keyboard. If one can adjust one's physical addressing of the keys on a keyboard to produce the range of velocities that sound and feel good to the player, then imo, end of story. Yea, I just came up with "physical addressing", I'm sure there's a more correct term but it's escaping me right now! 🙂 

 

What I find with many plugins - not just the acoustic piano in Korg Module - is that at the lowest velocities, there's a VCA in the mix sounding notes at an unnaturally low volume - almost silent, even. In many plugins, particularly Mac/Windows VST/AUs, you have several adjustments to let you tweak things to where they feel good to play. E.g., the "tone" control in the NI's Grandeur piano which the manual says "changes the tone color or timbre from soft to hard by readjusting the sample mapping."  I find iOS plugins (at least the ones I've used) more rudimentary in this regard. For pianos, I prefer volume changes tied to velocity be at least partially baked into samples rather than using a VCA modulated by key velocity. The piano AUv3s I've played don't do this, or maybe they do it to a more limited extent than the computer-based guys. That's why I sampled my Native Instruments New York piano into the Virsyn AudioLayer app for my iPad & iPhone - I'm very used to playing this piano from my A800 Pro. I know I'm an anomaly - a piano player that plays very little "real" piano!

 

I just believe you can't say that only a weighted action keyboard is suitable to play a piano sound. IMO it's the player's skill, along with their ability to adapt to what may be a different experience, that determines whether a non-weighted action will work for playing piano. I made my peace with these actions many years ago, doing gigs in New York schlepping gear from my street parking place through service entrances of hotels. When I got the rare gig playing a real piano, 99% of the time they were crap - out of tune, poorly regulated, broken notes, etc. Anyway, way OT for this thread but there you go... apologies! Carry on...

[AnotherScott]

14 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

In my opinion non-hammer actions don't play piano well only to the extent that a piano player can't (or won't) adjust to a non-hammer action.

 

I didn't say all non-hammer actions can't play piano well, I said that a lot of them can't. :-) 

 

Yes, every key may generate a velocity between 1 and 127 as you say, but if the difference in force required to generate a 1 and a 127 is too small to have a meaningful number of different force-levels between soft and loud (within the amount of control offered by a human hand), subtle dynamic gradations thoughout that range become impossible. How much of a problem this is probably varies with the design of the particular action, though I think it's likely that they all do lag behind the amount of control one can get from a hammer action. The difference among the different non-hammer boards, though, may be a matter of degree.

 

Attentive velocity mapping can certainly help, but it will require more finesse than a simple "soft, medium, or hard." And most likely, I think you will often be trading off the amount of natural playability in one part of the dynamic range to get more at another.

[Reezekeys]

49 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Yes, every key may generate a velocity between 1 and 127 as you say, but if the difference in force required to generate a 1 and a 127 is too small to have a meaningful number of different force-levels between soft and loud (within the amount of control offered by a human hand), subtle dynamic gradations thoughout that range become impossible.

 

Very true - in which case, a pianist playing such a keyboard would immediately know, because it wouldn't feel good to the player as I mentioned in my post above yours. If it does feel good, which in my case it does, then the problem you mention is moot –for that particular piano player at least! Opinion here: while a weighted action keyboard requires more force to play than an unweighted action, I don't think that necessarily correlates to how controllable the range between 1 and 127 is. Of course, for those used to a real acoustic piano action, a weighted action may indeed be more "controllable" but that's a function of the pianist's abilities, not the mechanism that translates playing force to velocity numbers. A well-made, well-calibrated unweighted action can produce a satisfying piano-playing experience - speaking for myself, of course. For real though - am I that special, that I have some amazing talent to play a satisfying acoustic piano performance on my little A800? Or maybe I'm full of it and fooling myself? (Don't answer that!). 🙂 

 

49 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Attentive velocity mapping can certainly help, but it will require more finesse than a simple "soft, medium, or hard." And most likely, I think you will often be trading off the amount of natural playability in one part of the dynamic range to get more at another.

 

At least in my A800, those are baseline settings, meant to help better match an individual's playing force over the 1-127 range. I think some synths & controllers don't have this feature - they only let you choose from curves, a separate setting which speak more to your comment about "trading off" playability at different parts of the dynamic range. That's why I would hesitate buying a keyboard that didn't have dynamic sensitivity settings like "soft-medium-hard"; curves by themselves are at best an unsatisfying band-aid fix for a keyboard that sends >100 when you're barely touching it or can't get to the 90s without pounding on it.

[Paul Woodward]

A keyboard like the A800 will never replace a weighted keybed and I have my Korg Grandstage for when I am gigging or in the studio, but it’s fine for rehearsals and the odd small gig. I tried Module with the Yamaha YC61 and it responded better but I’m fairly sure it’s Module’s piano (or the Ivory one I bought) as I get a good dynamic range with the Rhodes and Wurli etc.