Ever had a producer use one of your bad takes???

[nadroj]

My tribute band wrote an album of originals to keep us sane over COVID and it’s finally finished. Being pressed as we speak, launch is next month.

 

I’ve been given the tracks back to listen to and while I think the producer (who has worked with some fairly well known bands here in the UK) has done an absolutely stellar job, I’ve noticed that he’s used a couple of takes of mines that were…well, not great. 
 

There’s one song where I do a sort of ethereal descending organ run over a D7 chord. It’s smothered in reverb and delay and pans from left to right. It’s just a little flourish at the end of the vocal line, but I can clearly hear where I hit an absolute clanger mid run- an Ab. It being the tri-tone it’s not exactly subtle to my trained ears, especially over a D7 arpeggio. In some ways it adds to the sound because it makes it sound more ethereal, but to my ears it’s just wrong; an obvious mistake. My wife says it’s hardly noticeable but I’ll always know it’s there.

 

There are a couple of other tracks I’ve heard where I messed up a chord or two towards the end, and a live track we did where my timing on one little ad libbed part makes me cringe. Again, hardly noticeable but I can hear it.

 

I’m not actually bothered, and the guy had a 9 piece band to mix with dozens of tracks per song so I’m not surprised it got missed (or went unnoticed). 
 

If anything it’s just nice to have a record that was a result of 8 guys toiling away with live instruments in the studio - no MIDI or piano rolls here! 

 

Anyone had occasions or have examples where their obvious mistakes made it to a finished product? 

[D. Gauss]

mistakes mean nothing if the overall vibe/take sells the song, especially if recorded live.    there's decades of popular music top-selling hits with clams all over them.

[SamuelBLupowitz]

I've learned over years of recording that sometimes I have to trust other people's ears, who hear what is, over my own, which often hear what I call "the space between what I heard in my head and what I actually played." A couple of weeks ago I played a keyboard solo live during the tracking session for a singer/songwriter project. I didn't think it was my best work ever, but l was cool with it if they were (it's their record, right?). In my mind, there was one note that just sounded plain WRONG -- I think I heard the fifth and played the sixth or something like that, very different effect on the melodic line. But the songwriters and producer/engineer loved that moment in particular!

 

I've gotten a sense how to pick my battles, I guess. I'll push harder to fix stuff I don't like in my playing if it's *my* record, but I think it's paramount to have collaborators you trust around so that you're not plagued by those little moments, whether you decide to try again, or decide that the part works. But every now and then I'll hear an old track and cringe anyway...

Hey, doesn't the story go that Keith Emerson HATED the Lucky Man solo, that it was a first take and he was just messing around? So, you never know what's going to connect with people once it leaves you.

[Dave Keys]

I produced/played/engineered on an album for an artist, the idea being not to spend time tweaking sounds, but just getting the notes down. This was on the understanding that it was all going to be re-recorded at a big London studio anyway.

Couple of years later - they used my hideous bog standard sounds! Nothing I could do. Slightly cringeworthy 🙂

[Red Ranger]

Many years ago, I was hired to write & record a jingle for an online dating site. The client asked me to add a voice-over track so he could practice the timing (he was supposed to do the actual voice-over), so I quickly knocked one out using my best "super-cheerful salesperson" voice... He loved what I did and wanted to keep it (& paid me accordingly) but it was so cringe-worthy! The ad played constantly on the local talk radio station ("traffic on the 8s," followed by me urging people to sign up for this website) and my mom thought it was hilarious. "I heard your ad 15 times today!"  Ah well... it paid for a lot of gear!

[MAJUSCULE]

Oh yes. Had to learn pretty quickly to limit myself to things I could actually play, especially for live off the floor sessions. Nothing like having your worst take be everyone else's best...

 

But as said, our own self-criticism can sometimes cloud the bigger picture.

 

Just finished a record for a local band where I was unhappy with one of my solos and wanted to do some takes at home to fly in. After hearing what they did in the pre-mix (combining multiple takes at the same time with copious delay and some choice ducking), my original ideas actually came out much better than I thought. I still did more takes since I had made them wait, lol, but I at least wasn't disappointed with them using the original takes like I thought I'd be.

[MathOfInsects]

So "always" as to be Murphy's Law. But most of the people I work with, while they don't want you pouring noodles all over everything, also want the result of you being "in" the song and taking some chances. So often what we hear as a mistake (because it was!) just sounds like "a real thing happening in real time" to the producer, and they'd rather have the clam than the stiffness of inserting the perfect note or run there. 

Alas. 

[Stokely]

Not so much "bad" takes, but more tossing aside my favorite ones.

I don't play professionally but I did do a cool project with an old bandmate, reworking originals from teenage years.

I don't normally play a lot of solos anymore, it's not something I'm all that interested in, and it was a constant source of shall we say friction.  In particular, solos on instruments I don't normally play (like harpsichord).  I did many takes a few times and it's frustrating when you *finally* feel proud of how it's going only to get told it wasn't the one.  Worse is to hear things like "I know you can make a better one, try to find that inspiration!" yada yada when you feel you already *did*.

**** solos is all I have to say.  Take those out and I would have loved the project, as it was I have mixed feelings due to all the time spent on what I consider "optional" things.  I happily listen to music with few or no solos at all.

[timwat]

38 minutes ago, Stokely said:

Not so much "bad" takes, but more tossing aside my favorite ones.

 

Yes, had this happen as well, more than once. I remember one time where it wasn't just my favorite take - I had the bass and drummer (the first call battery in the Bay Area) arguing to use the take in question, making the case that it made the song, while I had the good sense to keep my mouth shut. To no avail.

 

Has happened more than once, as it has to all of us who do this kind of work, yes?

[Steve Nathan]

6 hours ago, Stokely said:

Not so much "bad" takes, but more tossing aside my favorite ones.

Happens all the time.  Some producers like a particular take no matter what, and sometimes no amount of telling them you have a better performance on take 2 or take 3 will ever convince them to consider it.  

[NewImprov]

Yeah, and in this case, I was the producer. On a recent session for my band's upcoming EP, we recorded a cover of a Fela Kuti tune. We've been playing it live for about a year, it's a great tune, and I really like our arrangement. I'm engineering and mixing the EP. After a couple takes, our tenor player suggested that I take the final solo on it, I hadn't soloed on it before, and didn't have anything prepared. I cranked the distortion on my Crumar Mojo and did some smeary pentatonic riffs, with the idea that I'd retake the solo later with my "real" A100. I spent a couple days trying to do a "better" solo, and just couldn't get the sound and feel of the first solo, though I could play stuff with more precision. My producer brain ultimately talked my player brain into accepting the original solo, and the band agrees with the choice. Thankfully, I was running the Mojo through the Ventilator, so the organ sounds great.

[AUSSIEKEYS]

10 hours ago, Red Ranger said:

Many years ago, I was hired to write & record a jingle for an online dating site.

 

"I heard your ad 15 times today!" 

 

So did you get the date?

[Steve Nathan]

24 minutes ago, NewImprov said:

Yeah, and in this case, I was the producer. On a recent session for my band's upcoming EP, we recorded a cover of a Fela Kuti tune. We've been playing it live for about a year, it's a great tune, and I really like our arrangement. I'm engineering and mixing the EP. After a couple takes, our tenor player suggested that I take the final solo on it, I hadn't soloed on it before, and didn't have anything prepared. I cranked the distortion on my Crumar Mojo and did some smeary pentatonic riffs, with the idea that I'd retake the solo later with my "real" A100. I spent a couple days trying to do a "better" solo, and just couldn't get the sound and feel of the first solo, though I could play stuff with more precision. My producer brain ultimately talked my player brain into accepting the original solo, and the band agrees with the choice. Thankfully, I was running the Mojo through the Ventilator, so the organ sounds great.

Many years ago I booked a sax player for an overdub solo. He came in and I played him the solo that I'd done on synth and told him I wanted him to replace the back half.  He asked why I would give up any of what he thought was a great solo,  and I told him that the keyboard player in me wanted the whole thing, but as the producer I knew it needed to be handed off.  I was right, and he killed it.😎

[Ivan May]

There are a lot of good examples of recording mishaps in rock, or at least when a producer uses a bad take.

 

Billy Joel's first album, Cold Spring Harbor, was accidentally recorded at the wrong speed, and was eventually considered unreleasable, but eventually it came out.

[EricBarker]

Not so much bad takes, but often times I’ve extremely surprised what a producer will choose.

 

I was working on this one song for a band, very Floyd, starts out sounding like Dogs, with noodling Rhodes against a backdrop of children playing. First take I sent didn’t put a lot of thought into it. Listened back later and heard some interesting ideas playing off the children’s yells. Came up with some great inspired material… producer hated it. Was kind of shocked since the second take was more thoughtful to the backing material, and a lot more playful, but it didn’t click.

 

Not a hill I was willing to die on or anything, but was just surprised. I’ve worked with this guy for years and usually know exactly what he likes.

[Docbop]

Should anyone ever say anything about the unintended note just give them a stern looks and say "Hey man I'm into Jazz" then turn and walk away.    They'll never say anything about it again fearing people will think they aren't  hip. 

[EricBarker]

32 minutes ago, Steve Nathan said:

Many years ago I booked a sax player for an overdub solo. He came in and I played him the solo that I'd done on synth and told him I wanted him to replace the back half.  He asked why I would give up any of what he thought was a great solo,  and I told him that the keyboard player in me wanted the whole thing, but as the producer I knew it needed to be handed off.  I was right, and he killed it.😎

I’m doing the reverse of that tomorrow. I’m producing a video game cover album that a guitarist laid down a bunch of melody lines for a song. It was his baby and wanted to lead. The original has some melody handoffs, and I’ve always felt something was lacking. He finally saw the light ON HIS OWN, and realized guitar should give way to something else. I suggested I lay some Trumpet down, and he agreed. I’m a little out of practice but it’s a simple enough part.

[Paul Harrison]

'The paradox was not lost on [saxophonist Paul] Desmond that interest in [the Dave Brubeck Quartet album] Time Out had been sparked by an inferior take [on the single version] of “Take Five” that he never intended anyone to hear. In an interview published on the Artists House Music website in 2011, [producer Teo] Macero remembered Desmond calling him shortly after the release of the single to complain that “you got the wrong take.” Macero played dumb: “It can’t be, I went over there and did the editing myself,” he said, before turning the tables. “Have you been to the bank lately with the royalty statements?” Macero asked. “They’re selling like hotcakes!” Desmond responded, Macero’s cue to hang up with a cheerful “Bye, Paul!”—which implied that, although the single might not have been Paul’s take of choice, any record selling in those quantities could never be the “wrong” take.' (from "Dave Brubeck - A Life in Time" by Philip Clark)

 

While this raises questions like how to distinguish between a "bad" take and an "inferior" one, and how to weigh commercial considerations against artistic ones, I agree with Paul Desmond; the version of Take Five on the Time Out album has always been the definitive one for me, with both Desmond's sax solo and Joe Morello's drum solo being much better on the album version. 

 

[Single version:] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1NZ57Xw_fg

[Album version:] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryA6eHZNnXY

 

 

[Magpel]

Sure many times. Just all part of letting go, but it can be acutely painful, sometimes lastingly!

One time I was hired to play two or three guitar solos on a guy’s record and I thought one of them was especially good and beautiful. The artist sent me the tracks before release and I was somewhat stunned to learn that his producer had found that solo a little too pretty. He wanted something with more less traditional guitarism and more indie obfuscation. So he just reversed it. He just played it backwards. I mean, it worked aesthetically, but it also hurt. 

[Iconoclast]

So.many.times

The standard one seems to be that we're laying down a scratch track with everyone live but all the instruments going direct to the board so you can't hear the drums in the instrument tracks. Then, primarily because we ran out of time or money, we just left one (or more) of the scratch tracks in because we never got to re-doing it and it was good enough.

Sometimes, there's a magic in the live recording that can't be re-created, but more frequently I listen to those recordings and just wish I had the time to go back and re-do a track or two.

Then certainly there's the case of comping through a solo part repeatedly and the producer uses some of your throw aways in the solo.

[Docbop]

Not much different to me than coming up with a what you think is a great part and the producer says it's not what he's wanting and having to create another you don't think works as well but the producer is happy now.    Just have learn to let go, cash the check, and wait for them to call again.   

[Mark Schmieder]

Exactly, but in a few cases, it was because of Windoze crashes (not mine; the producer's) causing data loss followed by confusion over which take was which and a mad rush towards a deadline once things were up and running again.

 

As I work primarily outside the mainstream, the biggest problem I run into is people in a studio who don't understand the genre or the music and take the worst possible approach. It pays to look at their resumes and who they've worked with; usually that takes care of such issues. But more often than not, we're served potluck, or apprentices.

 

Then again, the artist can be at fault. Paul Simon did a mostly acoustic album in the early to mid 2000's that I found unlistenable as it felt so unnatural. It was so heavily peak-limited that it was practically a square wave even though the source sounds were mostly acoustic, and at the absolute lowest possible volume, sounded loud and artificial.

 

It is hard to know if the takes were any good! Maybe they're remaster it someday, now that the "Volume Wars" are mostly over.

[Doug Robinson]

Well, most are pretty sanguine about this, I have a different opinion. You guys hired him. He works for you. Tell him exactly the note and exactly the point in the timeline where it happens. It would take him all of 20 minutes to go into your tracks, and just pull that note down to where it’s not audible and then run an automated mix down again. End of story. It’s your album, not his. I’ve left clams in my own recordings, but that was my choice. I can’t imagine surrendering that kind of control  to a producer. 

[allan_evett]

I had it happen a lot when playing on demos and albums in the 1990s. Sometimes my suggestions for a different or new take were considered, other times not.  As EricB said earlier, it's not a hill worth dying on.

 

In a strange twist from the original post, I was asked once to place a 'clam' near the end of a take.  I'd been brought in for a "Kraft Cheese Kisses" underscore, and the jingle producer requested a 'cheesy' synth organ sound. Okay, so far so good. But when that keys part was done, he still felt the track lacked something. I heard a potential piano part; he agree, so I sat down at his Yamaha grand and went to work. We recorded the part, he liked it, but... It was too 'perfect', especially the stinger right before K R A F T.  So the producer asked me to fluff the last note of the stinger, and this is what resulted.  AFAIK the product was tested in a few markets, then scrapped.  So not much $$ from that one, but some quirky fun.

[MAJUSCULE]

4 hours ago, Doug Robinson said:

Well, most are pretty sanguine about this, I have a different opinion. You guys hired him. He works for you. Tell him exactly the note and exactly the point in the timeline where it happens. It would take him all of 20 minutes to go into your tracks, and just pull that note down to where it’s not audible and then run an automated mix down again. End of story. It’s your album, not his. I’ve left clams in my own recordings, but that was my choice. I can’t imagine surrendering that kind of control  to a producer. 

Oh, yeah no, big distinction there. My previous posts in this thread were only about recordings where I’m hired to play the keys for someone else. Ultimately, the producer and artist make the calls. If I’m the artist or it’s my band, it’s a whole different ballgame. I imagine most of the other posters in the thread would agree with you there.