Lightweight but powerful active monitor for rehearsals/small gigs in UK. Know of any?

[Paul Woodward]

Last night I played my lovely Yamaha YC-61 through a borked Marshall stack in a rehearsal studio which sounded like a deranged Jimi Hendrix had fallen on a rhodes. Bloody awful. Its really hit and miss what these places have and they are all geared for guitar or vocals. So….I realise there are a few threads about amplification, but many suggestions are for US stuff.

I am UK based and have little space to store additional hardware between rehearsals so I am looking for a small, lightweight but reasonably powerful monitor. Ideally one that can double up as a monitor on stage and maybe feed the signal to the main desk or FOH. 

That may be enough of a challenge, but is there any single system that can take a stereo signal? I have lots of phasers and tremelo on the Rhodes and they sound a bit crap in mono, but I realise this is asking a bit much. I am just starting out with a new band and not sure where it will end, so don't want to spend a fortune on this, but happy to look for something preloved that I could resell if things don't work out.

So, any good recommendations to meet my needs?

For reference, I am using a YC-61 with Roland A800 pro running iPad which is routed through the USB audio so just two jack cables out at rehearsals.

For gigs I will probably switch to a Korg Grandstage and run that through the YC-61 audio in, so same two cables. I do have a small Yamaha AG-03 USB mixer if that helps my options.

[stoken6]

The only stereo monitor I can think of (that I would recommend) is the Motion Sound round, but they are potentially heavier and more expensive than you need. 

 

You might have to look into a pair of monos - the Alto TX308 are cheap, and light, but possibly not loud enough? 

 

Why don't you run keys into the rehearsal studio's PA? I do that at every rehearsal I've attended. Then use IEMs on stage for stereo bliss.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Paul Woodward]

1 hour ago, stoken6 said:

The only stereo monitor I can think of (that I would recommend) is the Motion Sound round, but they are potentially heavier and more expensive than you need. 

 

You might have to look into a pair of monos - the Alto TX308 are cheap, and light, but possibly not loud enough? 

 

Why don't you run keys into the rehearsal studio's PA? I do that at every rehearsal I've attended. Then use IEMs on stage for stereo bliss.

 

Cheers, Mike.

Thanks for the suggestions Mike. The place was so bad last night that someone had probably blown the desk so there was no output to the PA and the singer had to go into the PA speakers (active) with XLR. There was no Jack input 😞 We are looking for another (better) venue, but I would still like to have something as a backup 🙂 

Failing the stereo option, are the Alto's the best for reproducing the rich sound of Rhodes, Hammond, Wurli, grand piano etc. These all have a real distinct sound and, when you can't feel those nuances, I just struggle to 'connect' when playing.

For IEM's I need to look into these but no idea where to start and, again, they might be no use to me if I decided not to continue with this band.

[stoken6]

Altos seem to be a common recommendation on this board. The TX I mentioned are recognised for: 1. Reasonable sound quality / 2. Cheap / 3. Light - perhaps not desperately loud, but might be OK as close monitors/quieter gigs.

 

You mention "Rhodes, Hammond, Wurli" and "grand piano" which brings us to an interesting discussion:

 

Acoustic piano benefits from clear, uncoloured reproduction. You basically want your speakers to do nothing to the sound. The Altos are designed for that.

 

EP and Hammond work well with amps that colour the sound in a complimentary way. (Think JC120 for Rhodes, and Leslie obviously with that massive midrange hole). Modern keyboards typically incorporate that colouring into their samples/processing (onboard amp simulation for example), and output a signal intended for clean speakers like the Alto.

 

What keyboards are in your rig? You're not bringing a real Rhodes and Hammond to rehearsal I hope?

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Paul Woodward]

36 minutes ago, stoken6 said:

Altos seem to be a common recommendation on this board. The TX I mentioned are recognised for: 1. Reasonable sound quality / 2. Cheap / 3. Light - perhaps not desperately loud, but might be OK as close monitors/quieter gigs.

 

You mention "Rhodes, Hammond, Wurli" and "grand piano" which brings us to an interesting discussion:

 

Acoustic piano benefits from clear, uncoloured reproduction. You basically want your speakers to do nothing to the sound. The Altos are designed for that.

 

EP and Hammond work well with amps that colour the sound in a complimentary way. (Think JC120 for Rhodes, and Leslie obviously with that massive midrange hole). Modern keyboards typically incorporate that colouring into their samples/processing (onboard amp simulation for example), and output a signal intended for clean speakers like the Alto.

 

What keyboards are in your rig? You're not bringing a real Rhodes and Hammond to rehearsal I hope?

 

Cheers, Mike.

I wish..well for sound quality anyway, not the weight. No, as mentioned in the first post, its a Yamaha YC-61 and an iPad being run off a Roland A800 pro. Im using Korg Module on that but looking at maybe getting the Hammond B3-X  app when it drops from its £115 price tag!!

I really want to take the Korg Grandstage out as well (basically 30gb of Kronos sounds if you are not familiar with it), but its a bit bulky/heavy for rehearsals. Really do enjoy playing it more than a springy board like the YC though.

 

[Paul Woodward]

The Alto looks perfect in terms of size, weight and watts (350!), but it only has XLR inputs and I need jack 😞

[stoken6]

https://www.gear4music.com/Recording-and-Computers/Electrovision-XLR-Male-635mm-Stereo-Female-Adaptor/NC2

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Mr -G-]

Alto makes other models that accept both XLR and jack input (TS408, TS410). I have a pair of TS210 (now discontinued) that have both inputs. Otherwise use a DI box (they are not expensive). I do not think the adaptor above is what you need, but I have been wrong before.

[Paul Woodward]

16 minutes ago, Mr -G- said:

Alto makes other models that accept both XLR and jack input (TS408, TS410). I have a pair of TS210 (now discontinued) that have both inputs. Otherwise use a DI box (they are not expensive). I do not think the adaptor above is what you need, but I have been wrong before.

I have seen some of the 'larger' models. I think the smallest that offers a line in is 2000watt which is way more than I need, but I will keep an open mind. Thanks

 

[Mr -G-]

Those values (350W) are "peak",  the RMS (average) value should be about half of that (according to their specs).

[Paul Woodward]

Am I right in thinking that this little mixer I already own will give me the ins/outs I need and with a pair of wired earbuds, I would have a quick and dirty version of IEM's? At least in the short term so I can hear my gear properly at a rehearsal while the outputs to PA etc. will be for the benefit of the rest of the band? I realise I wont be able to fully hear the band if I wear earbuds unless they run a line into the mixer from the PA, but its got to be better than my current options. 

 

 

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, Paul Woodward said:

The Alto looks perfect in terms of size, weight and watts (350!), but it only has XLR inputs and I need jack 😞

The XLR inputs are combo jacks, they take 1/4" too. But...

 

47 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

I have seen some of the 'larger' models. I think the smallest that offers a line in is 2000watt which is way more than I need, but I will keep an open mind. Thanks

I would go with the TS408 over the TX408 because of sound quality (though I have not heard the TX personally).

 

As an aside, power per se is not an important spec in this kind of unit.  If volume is a concern, SPL is the spec to look at anyway.

 

3 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

That may be enough of a challenge, but is there any single system that can take a stereo signal? I have lots of phasers and tremelo on the Rhodes and they sound a bit crap in mono, but I realise this is asking a bit much.

There are single-box units that can do stereo (without, themselves, collapsing it to mono), but they won't meet your other specs. They will either be heavy, expensive, bad-sounding, or some combination of those things.

[PianoMan51]

You can use open backed earbuds to hear your self (through the earbuds) and the band (through the open backs). I’ve brought a pair with me to gigs for the past 12 years, and put them on whenever I want to hear myself better and in stereo. The separate volume control for the headphone jack makes this practical. 
 

I currently use FiiO FF5 earbuds, but others that sit in your ear rather than going into your ear will do.

 

A warning though, let a trusted fellow band mate know what your setup is. Because you may hear yourself beautifully while to everyone else you are apparently turned off. (How do I know that? Lol.)

 

Also, you get no volume reduction with this system so it only works with acoustic level groups. And there is a slight reduction in high frequency level from the band, but I find this a benefit.

 

Even though you will hear yourself in stereo, The mono/stereo issue remains for everyone else. My standard solution is to feed the mono PA with my right channel. Works really well for stereo acoustic piano patches (better than mono patches in my experience).

[Reezekeys]

2 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

Am I right in thinking that this little mixer I already own will give me the ins/outs I need and with a pair of wired earbuds, I would have a quick and dirty version of IEM's?

 

Yes that could work, caveats below...

 

2 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

I realise I wont be able to fully hear the band if I wear earbuds unless they run a line into the mixer from the PA,

 

Hell, if the band is loud, you can consider the earbuds as earplugs that will reduce the ambient dbs to tolerable level while letting you hear yourself fine. If you do want to get a monitor feed from the PA board, you shouldn't connect your mixer to this PA, as that will create a feedback loop. Your keys should go through a DI to the PA, then to this mixer. The feed from the PA mixer goes into the XLR input of your mixer, set to line level - and phantom power off!

 

2 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

The XLR inputs are combo jacks, they take 1/4" too.

 

On the TSs yes, the TX models no. XLR-only. At least my TX308 is XLR-only.

 

3 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

The Alto looks perfect in terms of size, weight and watts (350!), but it only has XLR inputs and I need jack 😞

 

Yes it's a little bit of a drag. I'm sure you can get cables with 1/4" on one end and XLRs on the other, but as Mike pointed out, there are inexpensive adapters available. I just got these and they work fine:

 

 

Looks like your little Yam mixer has balanced (TRS) 1/4" outputs so you can maintain a balanced connection from mixer to speaker, although I've used these adapters with unbalanced cables and they work fine there as well.

 

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

I would go with the TS408 over the TX408 because of sound quality (though I have not heard the TX personally).

 

The TX408 does not exist.

 

I might be a little biased because I have the TX308s but I honestly think that for reheasals, why go crazy with watts and DBs? Makes no sense to me, but of course I'm old. Paul is talking about sound at a rehearsal studio, not a gig. My TX308s are not going to replace my K8s, but they're almost laughably light and easy to carry. I've used them on gigs with loud drummers, playing my NI acoustic piano, and they do OK if not at the level of the big boys. For rehearsals? No-brainer. Rehearsing at stage volume is ridiculous in my view, but maybe I'm in the minority. My little 308s will always have a use - rehearsals, duo gigs, cocktail hours, ceremonies, etc. Anytime you don't need eardrum-destroying decibels.

[Paul Woodward]

2 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

The XLR inputs are combo jacks, they take 1/4" too. But...

 

I would go with the TS408 over the TX408 because of sound quality (though I have not heard the TX personally).

 

As an aside, power per se is not an important spec in this kind of unit.  If volume is a concern, SPL is the spec to look at anyway.

 

There are single-box units that can do stereo (without, themselves, collapsing it to mono), but they won't meet your other specs. They will either be heavy, expensive, bad-sounding, or some combination of those things.

The TX308 mentioned are definitely only XLR, not combo:

 

[Paul Woodward]

I am thinking the TX will do the trick with an adaptor for rehearsals so I am hear by the band and, if I am using the mixer anyway, I could also pop in a set of earbuds if necessary to a. reduce the band noise (thanks for that suggestion) and b. get the lovely stereo spread that makes the playing more responsive on rich sounds such as Rhodes 🙂

 

As always, a wealth of great advice here and I am not dropping dollar just yet so any more ideas, please do keep 'em coming. 

[Paul Woodward]

@Reezekeys the issue was/is rehearsals, but I don't want to double dip on backline, so ideally wanted a solution that might also provide enough volume on stage or small gigs 🙂 Thinking the TX308 (or a larger) might fit the bill.

[Reezekeys]

As I said, I've used my 308s on what **I** consider loud gigs, but that's a relative term! 🙂 

 

I think that being stereo, having two of them putting out sound helps. I'm not gonna try to guess how loud you have to get, but if you need speakers that will cover anything beyond a medium-sized room with a band that gets loud, I would probably move up to the TS speakers or equivalents. As I mentioned, my 308s are not replacing my K8s, so I know I'm covered for any kind of gig. At $140 each (about £115 says my currency converter) they are a steal, imo.

 

[edit - wow, £168 at Thomann UK, not £115]. Ouch.

[D. Gauss]

https://www.guitarcenter.com/Harbinger/VARI-V2308-8-in-2-Way-Powered-Loudspeaker-With-Bluetooth-DSP-and-Smart-Stereo-1500000337770.gc?cntry=us&source=4WWRWXGP&gclid=CjwKCAiA0JKfBhBIEiwAPhZXD5S2BPRmLB8ifgFIQZ9vCFilALxiRBXPjSNpH26xnWM6aRNx_RxIVhoC1jsQAvD_BwE

 

[AnotherScott]

16 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

On the TSs yes, the TX models no. XLR-only. At least my TX308 is XLR-only.

Ah yes. The spec sheet said mic+line level input, so I thought it was the same combo jack as the TS. Whoops!

 

16 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

The TX408 does not exist.

Oh, right, the TS308 was updated to 408 (just for bluetooth IIRC), the TX is still the same. Rough morning! ;-)

 

18 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

I might be a little biased because I have the TX308s but I honestly think that for reheasals, why go crazy with watts and DBs? Makes no sense to me

I'm not suggesting the 408 for it's extra volume, but for its reported better sound quality, since he emphasized his concern for sound quality in a couple of posts, including for piano. Not that the 408 is top of the line in sound quality either, but at least for me, it passes the "good enough" threshold. But as I said, I haven't heard the TX personally, I'm just going by other reports that said the TS sounds better (probably because it uses at least a different HF driver, and I think probably isn't bi-amped, as discussed in another thread). So if both are comfortably in budget, I'd pick the TS... which, yes, also has the additional dB headroom which would likely be useful in the event it ever needs to be used as main amplification for the keys in an electric situation that doesn't have a separate PA for you to go through.

[Ibarch]

I use a Vox VX50KB 50W Keyboard Amplifier. Has 3 jack inputs, one with mic pad and line out. I take it for practice and small gigs. 

 

Louder than you would expect from the 50W rating and very light and compact. 

 

[stoken6]

24 minutes ago, Ibarch said:

I use a Vox VX50KB 50W Keyboard Amplifier. Has 3 jack inputs, one with mic pad and line out. I take it for practice and small gigs. 

 

Louder than you would expect from the 50W rating and very light and compact. 

 

Nice recommendation - obviously need 2 for stereo, which pushes up the £££.

52 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

I'm not suggesting the 408 for it's extra volume, but for its reported better sound quality

Higher quality = higher weight (+8lbs) and higher cost (+£180 each) on the TS range. The OP is looking for "lightweight" and doesn't want to "spend a fortune" which is why I suggested TX (although both measures are subjective, I agree).

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Mr -G-]

Can somebody clarify if the signal level expected at the XLR input is the same as in an unbalanced jack input? I had the idea that they are different and that's why my comment that just an adaptor might not be way to go.

[EricBarker]

I have the Vox VX50, and love it. But then I later got a Behringer Eurolive B207 150W, and tend to prefer it. It’s smaller than the Vox but a few pounds heavier. The XLR inputs and mic pres are nice to have.

 

being a 5in speaker it’s extremely directional, which had its pros and cons. I can point it at my face and no one ever complains about my volume. It’s fantastic for one person in a moderately loud band, but it would be awful for 2 people.

[Reezekeys]

13 minutes ago, Mr -G- said:

Can somebody clarify if the signal levels in the XLR input is the same as in an unbalanced jack input? I had the idea that they are different and that's why my comment that just an adaptor might not be way to go.

 

The 1/4" to XLR adaptors mentioned in this thread are direct connections from the TRS terminals of a 1/4" jack to the three pins of an XLR. And in the case of the Alto TX speakers, there's only a single XLR input with a continuously adjustable trim from mic to line level. So yes, levels using these adapters will be the same as a direct connection to the XLR input without the adapter.

[Doug Robinson]

I just ordered a pair of TS 410s, and at about 26 lbs each, I think I'll be ok with the weight. I can use one for rehearsals and two for gigs. Combo xlr and phone jacks. paying about $775 usd for the pair new and delivered to Central Mexico--if you don't have to worry about import tax like I do, they'd be even cheaper.

[Reezekeys]

48 minutes ago, Doug Robinson said:

paying about $775 usd for the pair new and delivered to Central Mexico--if you don't have to worry about import tax like I do, they'd be even cheaper.

 

It seems the Alto 308s are more expensive in the UK than here in the USA as well, though over there it's "VAT", not specifically an import tax. And to think we in the USA were complaining when Amazon started having to charge state taxes of a few percent! I remember the pre-internet days of deliberately buying out-of-state to avoid paying sales taxes.

 

Good luck with your Altos Doug!

[Paul Woodward]

Going further down the IEM rabbit hole, could you not use some bluetooth earbuds (I have several Galaxy buds) and a jack to bluetooth adaptor to create a simple IEM type setup? Just a thought until the band decide what kind of setup they plan to use for gigs.

 

[AnotherScott]

Bluetooth audio has too much latency.

[Paul Woodward]

3 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Bluetooth audio has too much latency.

Fair point, just found a set of Sony earbuds that i dont use since my phones stopped having jacks. Comes with a ridiculously long cable too. Will put the mixer on the keyboard and I dont plan on moving around much 😉 Also found an Alto TX308 for a little over £100 (and a TX10 for less than that price) so may grab that as well 🙂