BluMunk Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 On 1/29/2023 at 8:18 PM, David Emm said: The main thing missing in most harpsichord patches is the sound of the plectrum falling back into place after you've hit the key. Which boards are you playing? My complaint is the exact opposite! It may be authentic, but I want an improved harpsichord experience where the keys don’t make a loud grating-gaspy echo every time I take my fingers off. Oh, you thought that was the last chord? Nope, the last chord is this a-musical fart that comes out when I pick my hands up off the keys. It is exceedingly rare in my experience to find a harpsichord patch without the release sound. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricBarker Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 Agreed… what harpsichord patches DON’T have this?! I think my old QS8 had this. It’s authentic… but annoying. Quote Puck Funk! Equipment: Laptop running lots of nerdy software, some keyboards, noise makersâ¦yada yada yadaâ¦maybe a cat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyberGene Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 It's part of the real harpsichord’s sound and makes it more authentic. Next what, remove the Rhodes barking? 😀 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamuelBLupowitz Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 This is my favorite idiosyncratic pet peeve thread in awhile, Josh, thanks! Literally yesterday I was listening to Sgt. Pepper and remembering how useful it was that I had a nice harpischord patch on my Electro for a cover of Fixing a Hole I played a few years back. Out of sheer snark (but also enthusiasm), I present this killer tune by Offa Rex, a collaboration between folk performer Olivia Cheney and masters of folky quirk The Decemberists. 3 Quote Samuel B. Lupowitz Musician. Songwriter. Food Enthusiast. Bad Pun Aficionado. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uhoh7 Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 11 hours ago, BluMunk said: Which boards are you playing? My complaint is the exact opposite! It may be authentic, but I want an improved harpsichord experience where the keys don’t make a loud grating-gaspy echo every time I take my fingers off. Oh, you thought that was the last chord? Nope, the last chord is this a-musical fart that comes out when I pick my hands up off the keys. It is exceedingly rare in my experience to find a harpsichord patch without the release sound. This one is my fav: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/zell-mt-the-zell-harpsichord/id1324508792 Find the bundle on iOS, which is ET and MT, 17.99 and that includes your laptop too. Fantastic samples and you can turn off the mechanical sounds. His organs are very good too. Zell Meantone makes some delicious thirds. (In some keys, Quote RT-3/U-121/Leslie 21H and 760/Saltarelle Nuage/MOXF6/MIDIhub, SL-880/Nektar T4/Numa Cx2/Deepmind12/Virus TI 61/SL61 mk2 Stylophone R8/Behringer RD-8/Proteus 1/MP-7/Zynthian 4 MPC1k/JV1010/Unitor 8/Model D & 2600/WX-5&7/VL70m/DMP-18 Pedals Natal drums/congas etc & misc bowed/plucked/blown instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluMunk Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 9 hours ago, CyberGene said: It's part of the real harpsichord’s sound and makes it more authentic. Next what, remove the Rhodes barking? 😀 There are two issues: 1. Most (all) harpsichord patches I've played do not let you dial in the relative volume of that release sound. 2. Most (all) harpsichord parts I have to play are not written with this extra sound taken into account. Consider a final chord of a quiet piece, with all instruments decrescendoing to a p or pp volume before the release. Then imagine hearing a final punctuation of a harpsichord release. Or instruments playing a series of notes in synchronized rhythm ending in a moment of silence... everyone stops making sound at the same moment except for the harpsichord, whose key-off noise shatters the silence. Yes, maybe it's not authentic, but there are a million and one real-world use cases for harpsichord sounds where this fundamentally un-musical artifact of the instrument's design is not only unwanted, but not even considered when the parts were written in the first place. tl;dr - these days, people aren't generally writing for a harpsichord instrument, but a harpsichord-like sound. And, they are more often than not ignoring or unaware of the release noise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr -G- Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 Golden brown - The Stranglers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-GUjA67mdc By the way I have no idea how to insert the video, hopefully somebody can clarify that? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathOfInsects Posted February 1, 2023 Author Share Posted February 1, 2023 1 Quote Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material. www.joshweinstein.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathOfInsects Posted February 1, 2023 Author Share Posted February 1, 2023 Yamaha. 1 Quote Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material. www.joshweinstein.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathOfInsects Posted February 1, 2023 Author Share Posted February 1, 2023 Korg. 1 Quote Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material. www.joshweinstein.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathOfInsects Posted February 1, 2023 Author Share Posted February 1, 2023 But why, Kawai? 1 Quote Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material. www.joshweinstein.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyberGene Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 As a huge harpsichord aficionado myself I will tell you this: Kawai has been lagging behind in harpsichord sound for years. Their harpsichord was only good enough for something like a Beatles song or whatever non-baroque music there is with harpsichord but it was mostly a joke, especially for people needing a convincing harpsichord for baroque music. Hopefully it's improved now. So, that's "why", I guess. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 MoI, other than the Nord (where it is combined with Clav), your illustrations are of digital pianos, whose focus is inherently on emulation of keyboard instruments... and I'd suggest, specifically those sounds that people would tend to be interested in playing in a solo, home environment. (Does anyone ever sit and play clavinet as a solo instrument?) So for contrast, let's look at some multi-purpose boards more geared toward ensemble or public performance, with also generally a larger variety of sounds overall... Kawai MP7/MP7SE Roland VR-09/VR-730 Roland Juno DS Roland Fantom-0 (Fantom has the same categories, but nicer buttons) Roland RD-88 Kurzweil K2700 (PC4 series are the same) Korg Kross Korg SV2 Korg Grandstage (sound selectors split to the left and right side of this image) Casio PX-5S Yamaha CP88/CP73 (3 sound selection sections) Yamaha MX series Yamaha Montage Dexibell S7 Pro 2 Quote Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathOfInsects Posted February 1, 2023 Author Share Posted February 1, 2023 "Your honor, the prosecution says there are five people who saw my client kill his wife. Well, I can show you 50 people who DIDN'T see it!" 1 6 Quote Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material. www.joshweinstein.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 49 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said: "Your honor, the prosecution says there are five people who saw my client kill his wife. Well, I can show you 50 people who DIDN'T see it!" More like, "I can show you 45 people who saw the wife, still alive after the supposed murder!" :-) Though again, I think it probably comes down mostly to a distinction between what is primarily marketed as "home" oriented boards vs. "pro/semi-pro" boards (though of course, people can use either kind of board for either purpose). From that perspective, what sound do you think these boards should have dedicated buttons for, in place of the harpsichord buttons? Again, in the context that clav is not a sound people generally play by itself or outside a full band context, which is a way it differs from harpsichord, which actually has a solo repertoire that can be drawn upon for those classically inclined. (Personally, even just for improvisational playing, I'd find harpsi more satisfying to play than clav.) Quote Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathOfInsects Posted February 1, 2023 Author Share Posted February 1, 2023 This thread is about how dumb and weird it is that that arcane sound of all things would be in the mix as a "main" sound on any board, ever, in 2023. The thread about how it should definitely be on keyboards is down the hall, next to the sackbut, the theorbo, and the jar of leeches for treating "the vapors." Don't forget to touch the head of the SK-Pro for good luck as you walk past! 4 Quote Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material. www.joshweinstein.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 3 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said: This thread is about how dumb and weird it is that that arcane sound of all things would be in the mix as a "main" sound on any board, ever, in 2023. Okay, but you seemed fine with having these and other, shall we say, less essential sounds "available in most boards, so that people who want to sound like the short time during the 60s where acid made bad ideas seem like good ones, can have their fix" - you just didn't like the idea of there being dedicated buttons for them. But as I demonstrated, on pretty much any board that isn't a "home-user" focussed board, those buttons don't exist, this looks to me like a phantom issue. I gave all those examples, but maybe I should have mentioned, I didn't "filter out" the ones that had harpsichord buttons... rather, I couldn't even find any pro/semi-pro boards (let's say, boards without built-in speakers) with hard dedicated harpsichord buttons (the closest is the shared clav button the Nord). Even with speakers, besides the RD88 I mentioned, you can look at Korg arrangers like PA700/PA1000 or Yamaha PSR-XS700/SX-900... no harpsichord buttons! As far as I can see, it doesn't really happen outside lower-end home pianos... and again from that perspective, I'd ask, what "keyboard solo playing" sounds should those pianos have instead? Or should they have fewer buttons? On the higher end, one thing I didn't look at was the touchscreen models. They don't have fixed navigation buttons... and one of the perks of the touchscreen is that there is essentially no limit on soft-buttons, so there can be tons of categories and sub-categories. I imagine you may find harpsi categories there, along with lots of other things you probably wouldn't think necessarily deserve their own category... but again, that makes it not just easier to find them if you want them, but also makes it easier for them not to be in your way when you're navigating through the sounds you do want. So I'd think you'd find it a plus there. There the categorization isn't a distraction... for you, it would be a way to keep them out of your way, I think. Anyway... Vox Continental Korg PA1000 (PA700 similar) - this board also has touchscreen with tons of sub-categorizations, but I think it's still a little weird to see trumpet given such independent prominence! Yamaha PSR-SX900 (SX700 similar) - accordion is big with this one! 1 Quote Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzpiano88 Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 Seriously? It was embarrassingly and painfully pointed out to you all of the classic tunes of the 60's that had the harpsichord featured prominently. You dismissed it as irrelevant, being 60 year old music. This argument speaks for itself. The reason it has its preset category is that there is enough volume of harpsichord work to include it for keyboardists wishing to cover these songs or play any of the period pieces. You keep doubling down.... it's not complicated. Stop digging. 1 1 Quote J a z z P i a n o 8 8 -- Yamaha C7D Montage M8x | CP300 | CP4 | SK1-73 | OB6 | Seven K8.2 | 3300 | CPSv.3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 4 hours ago, MathOfInsects said: Don't forget to touch the head of the SK-Pro for good luck as you walk past! LOL! I forgot about that one which had already been posted... and I even have one! Okay, so not a total shutout. :-) Quote Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radagast Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 On 1/29/2023 at 2:59 PM, JamPro said: Monday, Monday - Mamas and Papas Got to be There - Micheal Jackson Scarborough Fair - Simon and Garfunkel Half a World Away - R.E.M. Play with Fire - Rolling Stones Piggies - Beatles She's Leaving Home - Beatles You Little Fool - Elvis Costello Our House - CSNY Too Afraid to Love You - Black Keys Lazy Flies - Beck Triptych - Roxy Music Walk Away Renee - Left Banke Skyline Pigeon - Elton John The Fairy Feller's Master Stroke - Queen Bills Bills Bills - Destiny's Child It's definitely a niche sound. Now do what all modern studio gurus do: record some Harp and slap some weird effects on it to make it your own. Funny you should mention a song from Sgt. Pepper and leave out the intro to Fixing a Hole. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 14 minutes ago, Radagast said: Funny you should mention a song from Sgt. Pepper and leave the intro to Fixing a Hole. My pick for Beatles harpsichord song would be Because 2 Quote Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Williams Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 21 hours ago, EricBarker said: Agreed… what harpsichord patches DON’T have this?! I think my old QS8 had this. It’s authentic… but annoying. The harpsichord I played in college had the release sound, but it was probably 15dB quieter than most patches. I would say that the level of release-fart is inauthentically loud. Quote -Tom Williams {First Name} {at} AirNetworking {dot} com PC4-7, PX-5S, AX-Edge, PC361 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill5 Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 In defense of the OP I have to say wth happened to the clav...an excellent funk sound. Do millenials even know what "funk" is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoken6 Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamuelBLupowitz Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 9 hours ago, bill5 said: In defense of the OP I have to say wth happened to the clav...an excellent funk sound. Do millenials even know what "funk" is? We do know what funk is! Vulfpeck and their offshoots like Cory Wong; The Main Squeeze; and the late, great Turkuaz come to mind as far as bands made up of people from my generation who play funk-influenced music. Lettuce and some of the associated jam bands are probably more Gen X, I guess? Most of the digital multipurpose boards have a clav sound, I think, usually as prominent or more so than the harpsichord, as far as I can tell. The problem is a lot of clav samples/actions they're triggered by kinda suck, relative to the real thing. Of course, I've never cared to track down a real harpsichord, so... 3 Quote Samuel B. Lupowitz Musician. Songwriter. Food Enthusiast. Bad Pun Aficionado. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radagast Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 19 hours ago, MathOfInsects said: Why not? 19 hours ago, MathOfInsects said: Yamaha. Why not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radagast Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 19 hours ago, MathOfInsects said: Korg. Why not? 18 hours ago, MathOfInsects said: But why, Kawai? But why not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 The "why not" replies get back to my main question about the issue with DPs that have that button... what would you put there instead? Again, with the focus of these boards being solo home playing. Heck, I think even the ubiquitous Strings button is mostly there just to layer with piano (or perhaps to play a left hand chord while playing a more proper "solo keyboard-like" right hand sound). Because for solo playing, I imagine that strings alone would be played even less frequently than harpsichord! 1 Quote Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathOfInsects Posted February 2, 2023 Author Share Posted February 2, 2023 3 hours ago, Radagast said: Why not? But why not? Well, you've asked a direct question so I'll try to answer. IMO, the "why" is the "why not." Let's take the example of the Hammond Sk-Pro. There are six preset categories. Let's go at this three ways. First: for each category, what percentage of potential BUYERS would you say would NOT buy the board, if that category weren't there? Piano? I'd have to say 100%. Even though it's made of shizz, the point of this board is that has non-organ sounds onboard. E Piano? Same. It would be unthinkable to sell a professional stage DP without EPs. Clav? I'd say the LACK of a clav would cost a fair number of sales and a fair amount of value. For me personally it would be the difference between a sale and a not-sale. For others I don't know if it would be a deal-killer, but I'd bet it would cost well up into the 40 or 50% range in potential sales. Just a guess (as these all are). "Pitched Perc" is probably a lower-use scenario. I guess that's marimbas and vibes and the like? I would say it would affect maybe 10% of potential sales up front, but my "next" category below also says something else about this. Let's leave "Other" aside. Safe to say people would be happy to have reassurance that the sounds they see are not the only ones they are getting for their $2.5k. Now: "Harpsichord." What percentage of buyers would you say would NOT buy a Hammond SK-Pro if it did not have a full and visible bank of harpsichord sounds, the same way it has Piano and Electric Piano sounds? I'm not saying that it wouldn't have them in the "Other" bank, I'm saying, what percentage would see this panel and say, "No harpsichord button? Pass." I (former advertising guy) would put that number at 0%. Or, if it's over 0, it would be so to the exact same extent as it would ANY one person's idiosyncratic preference. Now here's another angle: Among those who buy the board, what would you say the frequency with which they push each of those buttons would be--what percentage of JOBS would you say involve using those sounds? Again, I'd guess Piano and EP to be at about 100%. Maybe some organ-only jobs would be in the mix, but you have other options for organ-only boards; the additional sounds here are the value-add, so you probably need them. Clav? Maybe 20-30% of jobs would have you hitting that button? Other? I'm going to guess SOMETHING in there gets used at a majority of gigs. I'm going to say 60%, but at any rate I'd say far more than 0%. Pitched Percussion? I think this would end up getting used to a greater extent than the buyer expected. Like, if it's there, might as well use it for a solo. So I'd say it would get used to a greater extent than it would be a deal-killer on a sale. Maybe 20% of jobs? Harpsichord? What percentage of jobs require harpsichord? For me, maybe once every couple of years, maybe longer. Or maybe if I want to start with something plucky for the "It Was a Good Day/Footsteps in the Dark" riff. But again, that's not a job I couldn't do if the sound were under "other" instead of its own category. So...5% maybe? And finally...what percentage of PLAYERS play the kinds of jobs that require each sound? Organ, piano, EP--no brainer. Clav...based on comments in this thread I guess it's less than the 100% I would have thought, but I'd still put it in the "over 50%" category. Pitched percussion? Pretty small. Harpsichord? Miniscule to inconsequential. Of all people playing keys in various projects and contexts, it's likely to be the smallest slice of the pie. It's very specialized and idiosyncratic. It doesn't mean they/you don't exist; just that it's highly likely to occupy the smallest slice of the practice. I'd almost consider it akin to playing quarter- and microtonal genres in the West. So if it doesn't sell boards, doesn't get used that much, and the percentage of people who do use it is such a small segment of the general market...why is it still an independent category? This thread has gone off into the craziest places. I'm not denying it exists as an instrument, I'm not saying someone won't need it, ever, and I'm not saying EVERY BOARD IN THE WORLD has it. I'm asking why in the world it would still be a prominent feature of ANY board. It seems completely consistent with other sounds to just stick it in the "Other" category (or each board's version of that), and let people find it if they need it. Since, statistically speaking, ain't no one actually going to need it, and having it as a whole panel of presets definitely isn't going to be the difference between a sale and a not-sale. BTW, I think the same question can be asked about pipe organ (as @Floyd Tatum says), and practically think it could be asked about transistor organs, though I think there's some cachet around that sound that might make people think they need it at a rate higher than any actual eventual use might bear out. Why is the harpsichord--exclusively the domain of the baroque era and 60's throwback bands--still a main, featured bank on digital pianos at all, regardless of intended use, and particularly on professional-grade keyboards such as the Nord and the Hammond? Saying, "except for those" is a little like saying, "Except for hydrogen, water is all oxygen!" These are not outlier products, nor are they cheap. Why would this silly sound still be a featured category on these boards, in 2023? Quote Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material. www.joshweinstein.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathOfInsects Posted February 2, 2023 Author Share Posted February 2, 2023 3 hours ago, SamuelBLupowitz said: We do know what funk is! Vulfpeck and their offshoots like Cory Wong; The Main Squeeze; and the late, great Turkuaz come to mind as far as bands made up of people from my generation who play funk-influenced music. Lettuce and some of the associated jam bands are probably more Gen X, I guess? Most of the digital multipurpose boards have a clav sound, I think, usually as prominent or more so than the harpsichord, as far as I can tell. The problem is a lot of clav samples/actions they're triggered by kinda suck, relative to the real thing. Of course, I've never cared to track down a real harpsichord, so... Yeah, if anything I'd say there's a concrete resurgence of this genre. But there's also plenty of repertoire that gets called using these sounds, even now. I've noticed that "millennial" is a stand-in for "anyone younger than Boomer." Just another way we GenXers got overlooked! But also a bit of denial around how old everyone is. Lots of Millennials are in their 40s. Much of the new music being made today is the product of GenZ. Youth is where the ideas are. It's just that each generation's ideas tend, by definition, to be the ones that most piss off the previous crop of former young people. 1 Quote Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material. www.joshweinstein.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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