Keys layered with pad/strings - would this be difficult to mix if the outputs are not separate?

[John Salazar]

Recently my band has started trying to get all the stems from the sound guy after a gig in case there's anything useable for a live recording we could put out.  Does anyone have any experience mixing layered sounds for a recording?  Specifically a keys patch (piano, rhodes, etc.) layered with a pad or strings.  I currently have a MODX+ which only has 1 set of outputs, so I can't separate outputs of layered sounds like you can with a Nord Stage 3 for example.  My main concern is if I'm going to have to get another board to separate the outputs in the stems - I don't really touch any of the mixing in the band, so I'm not sure how much of a pain this could be if not separated.

 

On the other hand though, in terms of the actual live performance, sending one set of outputs to the engineer could prevent them from messing with your volume balance in a way you don't want, so I guess there might be a tradeoff there.

[timwat]

Don't separate for live unless you're confident the sound guy is going to deliver what you intended for the audience.

 

If you're going to try to double-duty a live performance to release as a recording, fix it in post.

[Reezekeys]

What is the sound person using to record the gig? If it’s a DAW of any kind and has midi recording capability, definitely record your midi along with the audio. After the fact, you can use that to create stems of the different sounds. Yes it could be time-consuming, but that will give you total control of the balance of the strings, pads, etc., with the added benefit of being able to fix small clams (maybe big ones too, but they tend to bleed into microphones!). Ask me how I know this!

 

Of course it’s impossible to fix the balance between different layered sounds if they’re all combined and recorded as a single stereo track. The problem I see is that you’re controlling the balance on the gig, adjusting it based on what you’re hearing on stage - and that balance may not sound right once a mix is being worked on in a studio. You might get lucky and have everything sound good with proper balance, but I wouldn’t bet on it.

 

If the sound person doesn’t use a DAW and can’t record midi, I would do it myself, then sync it with the other tracks later. More time consumed, but doable and again, the only way to go from a stereo keys mix on a stage to separate stems. I’ve done this more than a few times, not live but in studios that didn’t have midi recording capabilities.

 

Of course, a second keyboard with its own outputs could work too, but wouldn't that involve quite a lot of setup time too? I assume you have this second board handy as well - or were you gonna buy one? I'd be going with the record-my-midi idea! If you have a DAW with good plugins you can even replace some of the sounds with better ones too.

[Adam Burgess]

What @Reezekeyssaid. Do a MIDI recording along with the audio 👍

[Stokely]

I hesitate to suggest this, but there's always the option to "cheat"    Ie, do the gig with one layer and add the other layer after the fact if have the means.  I did this with Logic Pro when there were audio issues in the keyboard channels.   The trick of course if you are on video (or if you have an amp and there is bleed) is that you have to match the original part.   We also did that with a background vocal where our bassist was inexplicably WAY out of tune...I muted him and recorded his part!  

With any live mix or this re-recording, it needs to still sound "live"...so a dry pristine studio mix or single track might sound unnatural.  

There are also these days plugins that supposedly can split instrments/vocals out of a mixed source.   I haven't tried them and was super dubious but apparently these work very well, maybe not for a pristine studio recording but maybe good enough for live.  I'm not sure if they'd work on two keyboard sounds.

[harmonizer]

My questions:

(1) If everything is being sent to a multitrack recorder, how many independent tracks are available there? I ask this because if there are spare tracks there, you might be able to record extra tracks that are not directly linked to the live mix. Some multitrack recorders (like my Zoom L-20) have multiple monitor mixes, so that you could record two separate keyboard outputs as two separate tracks, but combine them as one output to go elsewhere (i.e. to a live mixing board).

(2) Is the multitrack recorder "in-line" to the live sound, meaning that its mixed output goes to the Front-of-Hall? Or does each sound (each track) get forked (somehow) into two separate paths, one for the multitrack recorder and the other for a separate live mixing board?

(3) Are the volumes for each track on the multitrack recorder controlled by you, or by the sound guy?

 

(4) If you add a second board, how are you going to monitor your sound? Do you use a (powered speaker or keyboard amp) pointed at yourself to hear what you are playing? If you add a second board would you route its sound via that same amplification device?

[ProfD]

21 hours ago, John Salazar said:

Specifically a keys patch (piano, rhodes, etc.) layered with a pad or strings.  I currently have a MODX+ which only has 1 set of outputs...

If the layered sound is coming from the same KB (MODX+), set the desired balance within the preset/performance before playing/recording it. 

 

If the recorded part is a stem and playback reveals that part of the layer needs to be louder, record another track of keys or pad or strings only.       

 

Of course, recording the part as a MIDI file and/or using a 2nd KB eliminates the problem altogether. 😎

[confidence]

I think you can get very tangled up in detail here, and at some point are going to have to accept the fundamentally different priorities of live playing (minimal stems sent to PA so you have personal control and not too much can go wrong, everything at its best on the first pass and not needing to be tweaked afterwards) and recording (maximum stems for maximum after-control, multiple passes and maximum tweaking after the fact). Keeping a record that can be turned into a live recording is a perfectly valid aim, but it's still going to be a live recording, not a studio recording. The singer's not going to sound like they would in a studio environment with perfect control of reverb etc, the guitarist is going to be limited by the effects hardwired in and coming out of their amp on the night. Why should the keys be any different? If you start going down that rabbit hole you'll inevitably have to compromise the control and stability necessary for live performance to do so.

 

But I actually think Reeze has the best idea - record the MIDI, and then you can do what you want with it.