The Thumb Bar Controller

[RLFX]

 

 

 

 

 Thumb Bar Controller video         https://youtu.be/i1bsDtDARD4       

[DaveMcM]

Where is the 'head scratch' emoji?

 

[CyberGene]

That’s a really interesting idea but you’ll have to plan your fingering, so that you end up with your thumb ready to manipulate the bar which is a challenge by itself especially when doing quick runs.

[RLFX]

I find it very natural. If you think about it, most articulations of this type (bending a note or adding vibato, effects, etc.) are done when sustaining a note.

Everyone since Bach has planned fingering. 

[Zalman Stern]

Well since the Expressive-E Osmose is still nowhere to be played... 🙂

 

-Z-

 

[timwat]

RLFX - I presume this is Craig Jackson posting this.

 

Craig, nice playing in the video, I enjoyed listening to you!  With regard to the product, I understand how with some degree of getting acclimated, this bar controller could make two handed playing possible. Questions abound - do you have to modify existing keyboards to retrofit this bar, how does it mount, etc. Or is it a separate MIDI unit? Also, is it possible to make a version that is more visually "unobtrusive", or does that reduce the playability?

 

Also, I hate to be "that guy" but I'm wondering if as you are the inventor of the product, if there's is a more appropriate spot on the forum for you to be introducing this new product? Mods, I know we haven't started that sub forum yet, and Craig / RLFX isn't directly trying to sell here...but just wondering where this product post should be.

 

 

 

 

[RLFX]

I am the inventor. This is a prototype/modified Yamaha MX49. It is patched into the circuitry, replacing pitch and mod wheels.

The prototype required certain accommodations, as no parts were specifically manufactured for this version.

I envision a much smaller, sleeker version of the horizontal bar, and as far a two-handed playing, this was designed for 49 key or less keyboards.

The patent covers retrofits, as well as, a keyboard manufactured with opening slots on either side of the keyboard to accommodate

the vertical movement needed.

If there is a better place to show this, please tell me.

I am not selling, this, I am looking for feedback for licensing and manufacturing.

Other versions will make it possible for larger keyboards and two-handed playing. 

Soon, when MIDI 2.0 is more common, a cabled or wireless retrofit would be possible.

Thank you for your questions.

[RandyFF]

Hmmmmmm….. other than it being a controller for your thumb that replaces PB/MW and doesn’t require a second hand for that, I have no idea what you’re talking about.  If not a video, preferred, then at least some photos are needed to see the actual controller and how you use it.

[CyberGene]

He posted a YouTube video but it’s not embedded, only a link. And the picture in the first post doesn’t include the actual bar. It took me some time to realize what was all about until I opened the video. 

[StickMan393]

Just when you think you've seen it all.... (and I mean that in a good way). That looks pretty cool but obviously a bit ungainly. Some of us have used our feet on expression pedals to handle modulation whilst playing two 'boards...

[David Emm]

It looks a bit ungainly at first, but that demo is highly convincing. I wouldn't worry about two-handed playing so much; its sweet spot seems to be for one-handed work. You can tell if it suits your style pretty easily. I get the feeling that you can master it more readily than anything else that's appeared for a while. The nearest thing to a modern comparison I can think of is Korg's old Prophecy, one of Zawinul's favorites. It was an early VA and physical modeler with a mutant left-hand section, featuring a pitch-bend barrel with a touch strip across the middle. The Thumb Bar has a similar feel. It could also be a great show piece with some LEDs glued on it. 🤓

[RLFX]

I am sorry if the post went awry. Please refer to www.rlfx.com

I will try to fix.

Try not to think about the synth being redisigned....only the enclosure.

Any 49 key or less synth or controller manufacturer could include this controller,

if slots for vertical movement was accommodated.

[AUSSIEKEYS]

Absolutely brilliant

 

Great demo sir exactly what is needed to promote it. 

 

I assume the parts if put into a production model made by a manufacturer wouldnt add too much weight to the keyboard nor as an aftermarket using double sided tapes for mounting the end pieces. (Industrial strength thin double sided tape such as that used in the mounting of servos in radio control cars is bullet proof) most people wont want to drill into their keyboard unless its a cheapy.

[RandyFF]

4 hours ago, CyberGene said:

He posted a YouTube video but it’s not embedded, only a link. And the picture in the first post doesn’t include the actual bar. It took me some time to realize what was all about until I opened the video. 

Thanks, didn’t see that.

 

A whammy bar for keyboardists, but even better: Pitch AND Mod.  Most exclnt!

 

I’ve heard of standing players using foot pedals, but many of us are not able to stand on one foot for long periods, pedals usually take a seated player.  So maybe this would be esp useful for One-Handed standing players.

 

It seems like an involved adaptation.  Having a bar in the front- take it off when transporting? And the sturdiness of such a long appendage, seems prone to twisting/breaking-at-the-joints; on the plus side it does have 2 connection points, but still, even on a 49 key board that’s long for that flying in free space bar.

 

But logistics and practicality aside, I would definitely try one out, you never know until you’ve tried it yourself.  But then practicalities again- being a one-of-its-kind?, you never know how good the thumb bar can be until it’s been developed a few years beyond the launch- and those crazy, extension-arm vectors?  Pushing in and out through the entire arc of the pitch sweep up and down, that’d be a challenge to create something sturdy but lightweight, flexible but not mushy, clear detente points?, etc.

 

I’d be very curious to see more video photos of how it attaches to the keyboard- a bit Frankensteinish!

 

 

The controller I wish someone would build: foot pedals that you’d stand on, it’d be like a small riser, platform shoes height, about 3-4” high (the lower the better).  Both of these sweep pedals would need enough torque/resistance to make it almost natural to heel and toe it with one foot, while the other foot would be for balance?  For advanced users, that second pedal would do sweeps as well.  

 

For that matter, having gyroscopic sensors that are at strategic junctures like the knees, elbows, wrists, so that you could do expressive movement, even a degree of dancing, that would trigger pitch bends, mod wheel-

 

 

 

 

 

[bjosko]

I enjoyed the video, but I think it would be better as an add on controller.

Something that could sit below whatever keyboard you wanted to use it for, with some kind of tube in tube ( think adjustable curtain rod) leveler, and also adjustable bottom plate that could be placed below your keyboard.

Output to keyboard midi in ( with a few possible adjustments for the correct CC and value), and wham, a new multi controller.

[Garubi]

Really interesting! 

 

[Al Coda]

on a Kurzweil PC3 model, some users achive this by velcroing the (optional) 3-zone ribbon controller to the case below the keyboard action and play the freely assignable ribbon-zones using both thumbs.

 

 

A.C.

[RLFX]

The Thumb Bar Controller

[AWkeys]

That's really neat! Congrats and well wishes to RLFX!  This reminds me of a gig I did years ago opening up for Robby Krieger of The Doors. His keyboard player was an old dude who was a tinkerer and built a volume swell bar out of what looked like a couple of springs and a garden hose! It sat in front of the keys as he played and he would use his wrists to roll the volume up or down. I love that sort of ingenuity!

[stoken6]

Reminds me of the old Yamaha PSR-4500/4600, which had wrist-controllable roller bars under/in front of the keys. Same problem, similar solution. 

 

Cheers, Mike.

[RLFX]

17 hours ago, AUSSIEKEYS said:

Absolutely brilliant

 

Great demo sir exactly what is needed to promote it. 

 

I assume the parts if put into a production model made by a manufacturer wouldnt add too much weight to the keyboard nor as an aftermarket using double sided tapes for mounting the end pieces. (Industrial strength thin double sided tape such as that used in the mounting of servos in radio control cars is bullet proof) most people wont want to drill into their keyboard unless its a cheapy.

You grasped the concept immediately, and that is how this prototype is attached.

There is an alternate way, by making an adjustable, attachable/detachable unit for a variety of keyboards...that is in development.

[RLFX]

If you haven't watched the whole video demo....Imagine trying to express this wth foot pedals or any other controller.

 

https://youtu.be/ziLmxmiXZ7k

 

 

[DaveMcM]

On 11/8/2022 at 2:16 PM, DaveMcM said:

Where is the 'head scratch' emoji?

 

After watching the video, I get it. It's always nice to see someone come up with a new idea. If the mechanical bar was replaced with a ribbon strip (think CS-80) mounted on the keyslip then you could apply pitch bend by moving your thumb left/pitch down and right/pitch up as well as add natural vibrato. A lot of keyboards have channel pressure which could be assigned to modulation.

 

The old Hammond Concorde home organ had a similar pressure strip that could be assigned to various functions.

The even older Thomas Organ Co. had several models where the actual keyboard could be wiggled back and forth to create vibrato.

Even older than that was a keyboard that had a string that stretched across the keyboard that you could pull on and it would do something. Can't remember the name of the keyboard or exactly what the string did but I know the info is in a book that I have.

 

To the OP, sorry to go off on a tangent.

[RLFX]

Thanks for all of your replies, comments, and memories. I have played them all in my 55 years as a keyboard player.

 

The ribbon controller was not as precise when trying to raise or lower pitch. I understand you could raise the pitch, with touch sensative keys, but how do you lower it?

Do you slide your finger forward and backwards?  Awkward.  The main goal here was to replace the proliferation of the pitch/mod wheels or joystick with something that did not require a second hand. Not only for multikeyboardists, but those who don't have another hand. Did you know that 50,000 people a year in the USA have amputations?

Did you know that there approximately 4 million upper limb amputees in the world?  Imagine someone with only one arm being able to still express themself on a keyboard after a tragedy. I am no virtuoso on the keyboard, but I find this very satisfying when soloing. Remember, is not the number of notes you play, but which ones, when and where.....and as guitarists, saxophonists, and all solo instrumentalists, the feeling you give the note.

 

This was a proof of concept/prototype.

If manufactured as part of the keyboard, it would be much less "ungainly", as many noted.

The controller arms could protrude on either side of the keys, if they just redesign the enclosure.

This was originally conceived for solo synths, 49 keys or less.

 

But, who said the Thumb Bar Controller had to run all of the way across?  It could be on the right side only,

controlled with the right hand, so as not to be impeded by the left, which is perfect for keyboard splits.

 

I have contacted most every keyboard/synth manufacturer in the world..

They are the ones keeping us stuck in old technology...it is up to them to try something new.

This is why I spent 9 years developing this.

If you watch the complete 5 minute demo, you should understand a change is long overdue. 

Contact you favorite keyboard/synth manufacturer and request one on your next purchase.

 

https://youtu.be/i1bsDtDARD4

[Sean M. H.]

Regardless of what comes of this long-term, I commend you for your hard work and ingenuity.  Good luck! 

[Mr -G-]

Very interesting.  I hope you had your invention protected by a patent before you contacted the manufacturers!

My humble opinion is that it might be more practical to have a device produced separately rather than hoping that it will be included in every keyboard as default.

Something like a thin plate with the mechanism attached to the sides so one can put a kbd on top (as suggested by bjosko) and connect via MIDI to the instrument (actually a MIDI merge box might be more useful for those setups with MIDI in already in use).

 

 

 

[MathOfInsects]

Interesting concept and kudos for thinking creatively.

In terms of feedback, I'd personally find it annoying to have to change my fingering to accommodate my pitch bend or mod. Your examples allow you to use your thumb, but you've also incorporated fingering that allows this to happen. You've essentially moved Aftertouch out of the keys and into an external device...which is actually the same as any keyboard without aftertouch, except that I have to use my thumb to trigger the reaction here, instead of any finger or either hand.

It also means essentially "playing" my thumb while my finger holds the note, instead of positioning/preparing for the next set of notes. I might do this in very very specific and controlled circumstances, but in general I'd want to "play" the finger I'm already playing, and supplement with my other hand, instead of engaging a free finger (thumb) for an aftermarket effect.

So as it stands, if I had a choice of models, one with this feature and one without, I'd probably gravitate to the one without.

If it were integrated more completely with the keys or shell, I might feel differently.

A separate comment is this: your examples are very 80's/early-days-of-MIDI-recording sounding. I think it would be helpful to show how this might integrate into more contemporary playing/sounds.

I applaud the thinking behind it and the creative impulse that led to the prototype. I think it might benefit from some tighter proof-of-concept iterations. I look forward to seeing what comes of it!



 

[jazzpiano88]

On 11/8/2022 at 7:59 PM, RandyFF said:

A whammy bar for keyboardists, but even better: Pitch AND Mod.  Most exclnt!

 

That was my first reaction!  I'm sure the mechanics could be refined to improve the playability.

Maybe a pedal for polyphony hold.     Neat idea!