The Comping Thread

[Tusker]

Assuming this is a beginning comping thread, we should follow the Hippocratic oath of music: first do no harm. Tactically, this means two things to me  ...

 

- Sure we have up to 88 keys, but lets stay out of others peoples' ranges (bass, voice etc.)

- The drummer is already busily playing most of the subdivisions, so lets only add notes which will enhance the cohesion of the existing "pocket" or "groove."

 

Comping is based on the word accompaniment, which suggests it is not the main dish. Hoping this is helpful advice. 

 

 

[Docbop]

15 minutes ago, Tusker said:

Assuming this is a beginning comping thread, we should follow the Hippocratic oath of music: first do no harm. Tactically, this means two things to me  ...

 

- Sure we have up to 88 keys, but lets stay out of others peoples' ranges (bass, voice etc.)

- The drummer is already busily playing most of the subdivisions, so lets only add notes which will enhance the cohesion of the existing "pocket" or "groove."

 

Comping is based on the word accompaniment, which suggests it is not the main dish. Hoping this is helpful advice. 

 

 

 

 

In the Classical world I belive they call it Collaborative piano,   From the dictionary definition of collaborative it might be a better way to think about it.   

 

collaborative

adjective

accomplished by collaboration; cooperative. Opposed to competitive.

Of, relating to, or done by collaboration.

accomplished by collaboration

[Outkaster]

I don't think some of these video's really illustrate comping that well but more are performance based.

[Jose EB5AGV]

17 hours ago, Outkaster said:

I don't think some of these video's really illustrate comping that well but more are performance based.

 

Well, at least from my point of view as a beginner, they show wonderful performances, which is nice, but really difficult to apply to my playing (I am ages from that level)

 

So, yes, perhaps more basic comping examples would be fine. I mean things like the ones on the Beginning Rock Keyboard book by Mark Harrison. Now you will understand why I asked for a beginners sub-forum 😅

[ajstan]

29 minutes ago, EB5AGV said:

Well, at least from my point of view as a beginner, they show wonderful performances, which is nice, but really difficult to apply to my playing (I am ages from that level)

I think I understand what you're saying.  The Matt Rollings instructional video seems general and basic enough to be helpful to most anyone in a lot of situations, but a beginner watching a Chick Corea performance video to learn the basics of comping seems a lot like a beginner watching a Simone Biles competition video for one event to learn the basics of gymnastics.

 

Also, at the risk of asking a super-elementary question, how is everyone defining "comping" here?  I generally see comping as anything in any genre where the musician is not playing a lead line ("accompaniment" as @Tusker said).  If that's the case, then it would be really difficult to coherently cover such a wide-ranging topic in a single thread, so more specific thread topics may be more effective at concentrating the conversation towards the objectives of the OP of that thread.

[Al Quinn]

I learned how to comp by listening to the comping of people whose comping I like. It’s been my experience that most things I aspire to learn are available on the recordings of my heroes. I’ve learned mostly by listening a lot and exploring / experimenting when I practice, but sometimes I’ll take the time to copy something from a recording being careful to learn not just the notes but also the feel / attitude. The former is not too difficult whereas the latter can be challenging. But, the latter is what matters most. Without a good feel there’s nothing but sound. It’s all very similar to how we learned to speak our first language.
 

It’s wonderful when masters of the kraft, like Matt Rollings and Mulgrew Miller, share their thoughts on music as it provides insight that is present in their performances but not easy to extract as a listener.

[timwat]

From one perspective, this is the whole point of the journey.

 

A lot of our threads have to do with gear. But occasionally a thread asks a really big question, like:

 

• How do I improve my soloing?
• How do I accompany a singer?
• What's the best way to contribute to a two-guitar band?
• How do I make my Blues piano sound more authentic?
• How do I get better at playing solo piano?

 

In real life, the most useful answer begins with "Show me how you currently play" and then identifies areas where I'm strong, and where I could stand to improve. But on the interwebz, in the absence of hands on instruction, a lot of the responses are going to be "Here's a big concept, and here are some exemplary examples" - which at a practical level aren't going to be as immediately helpful.

 

But from a long-term aspirational perspective, I think those are the things that point us farther down the path. They inspire me to want to evoke the same emotions that that example does in me. They point me to a way of playing that I want to get a little closer to...eventually.

 

Whether I'm willing to put in the hard work studying, breaking it down to components and bite-size chunks, practice, transpose, practice, integrate into my own playing, integrate into my inner ear - well, that's on me. 

 

But it's like a finger pointing away to the moon. Don't concentrate on the finger, or you will miss out on all that heavenly glory. Sort of.

[Morrissey]

7 hours ago, EB5AGV said:

perhaps more basic comping examples would be fine

 

@EB5AGV Is something like this helpful?

 

 

[Jose EB5AGV]

21 hours ago, Morrissey said:

 

@EB5AGV Is something like this helpful?

 

 

 

Yes, it helps, thanks!

 

Another interesting link I found is this:

 

Left hand comping patterns

 

Also simple things to build on them!

 

Jose

[Outkaster]

On 10/20/2022 at 11:31 AM, ajstan said:

I think I understand what you're saying.  The Matt Rollings instructional video seems general and basic enough to be helpful to most anyone in a lot of situations, but a beginner watching a Chick Corea performance video to learn the basics of comping seems a lot like a beginner watching a Simone Biles competition video for one event to learn the basics of gymnastics.

 

Also, at the risk of asking a super-elementary question, how is everyone defining "comping" here?  I generally see comping as anything in any genre where the musician is not playing a lead line ("accompaniment" as @Tusker said).  If that's the case, then it would be really difficult to coherently cover such a wide-ranging topic in a single thread, so more specific thread topics may be more effective at concentrating the conversation towards the objectives of the OP of that thread.

That's true to an extent but you can not be playing a lead and not be comping either.  I define it as more rhythmic parts performed over and over.   I never heard that term  "Comping" gigging out for all these years till I came to this forum.   Personally I thought it was kind of stupid that's just how I see it.  I can understand why people use it though. 

[timwat]

1 hour ago, Outkaster said:

I never heard that term  "Comping" gigging out for all these years till I came to this forum.

 

I've never heard the term used outside of a jazz context, personally. That may just be my own anecdotal experience.

 

But in jazz circles, it is a standard term I've encountered from earliest days of instruction. The importance of considering different approaches and concepts was taught to piano and guitar players (again, in a jazz context) because the great percentage of what we play is comp vs. the few isolated solos we take.

 

Obviously, can't speak for anyone else but my own experience.  

[BluesB3]

On 10/21/2022 at 3:09 PM, timwat said:

 

I've never heard the term used outside of a jazz context, personally. That may just be my own anecdotal experience.

 

But in jazz circles, it is a standard term I've encountered from earliest days of instruction. The importance of considering different approaches and concepts was taught to piano and guitar players (again, in a jazz context) because the great percentage of what we play is comp vs. the few isolated solos we take.

 

Obviously, can't speak for anyone else but my own experience.  

I've always admired jazz players even though I'll never be mistaken for one. But it's always been understood by me that "comping" is not taking the focus away from another player's solo no matter the genre. It's not just voicing but also volume, tone, and timbre choices like drawbar regs or pickup selection make a heckuva difference in effective comping. 

[Jose EB5AGV]

On 10/23/2022 at 3:04 AM, BluesB3 said:

I've always admired jazz players even though I'll never be mistaken for one. But it's always been understood by me that "comping" is not taking the focus away from another player's solo no matter the genre. It's not just voicing but also volume, tone, and timbre choices like drawbar regs or pickup selection make a heckuva difference in effective comping. 

 

Yes, I agree with that.

 

For me the question is what to actually play (note that I am a 4.5 years playing beginner 😅)

 

One example are songs which originally didn't have a keyboard on their arrangement. And I explain that: those are not covers, but original songs of the group, which didn't have a keyboard player until I arrived. I know there is no need (nor it would be OK) to just double guitar or bass players. So I mostly get by with some backing chords, eventually arpeggiated, and a sensible rhythm which suits the song. So far there have been no issues with that, but perhaps some seasoned players could give some other ideas.

[Al Quinn]

I think the only way to get specific thoughts on a specific song is to share the song. If you share the song(s) I bet you’ll have some good suggestions to consider. IMHO, comping is too big a topic to discuss in generalities when seeking song-specific suggestions.

[Jose EB5AGV]

1 hour ago, Al Quinn said:

I think the only way to get specific thoughts on a specific song is to share the song. If you share the song(s) I bet you’ll have some good suggestions to consider. IMHO, comping is to big a topic to discuss in generalities when seeking song-specific suggestions.

 

Yes, it seems pretty logical 😆

 

Well, I will give you an example, but with some caveats:

• That is not the current band. In fact, only the bassist and drummer are still the same. So we have a new singer (still not in any video, as she began with us a couple weeks ago), new guitar player, new sax player and new keyboard player (yours truly)
• The song is in Spanish 😄 (it talks about a disgraced rock star)
• I know what I play on that song 😬, but will not say it, so you will be completely unbiased

Ok, here it goes: Estrella del Rock by Complicada SenZillez

 

 

[jerrythek]

Yes, comping is certainly a "jazzer" term for accompaniment. In that context, the part you will play is not pre-determined, and is considered a way of both voicing the chords/harmony and using a rhythmic approach. Or not. I say that, because simply playing long/sustained chords is a form of accompaniment, or comping.

 

In the jazz approach, keyboardists will not only define the harmony through their voicings, and support the groove of the tune with their rhythmic choices, but will often play small melodic ideas, and even mimic, or "chase" the soloist by repeating, or reacting to a melodic figure the soloist plays. But that is a dangerous territory, as you can quickly get in the way of the soloist if you do that too much. And it is that sort of playing that you will find players like Chick Corea do so well, but you should be careful about trying to mimic that aspect. Better to stay simpler, and more supportive.

 

How you define the chords/what voicings you use depends greatly on the genre. Jazz voicings work well in jazz (of course), and often in soul/R&B/neo-soul/whatever (including Steely Dan!). Rock and pop tend to use less advanced harmony and less alterations of the dominant 7th chords, as an example. Metal and harder rock often doesn't want you to use the 3rd of the chord: open 5ths and octaves with the 5th are usually the best choice. These are broad examples but they are a good primer for getting started.

 

Rhythm outside of jazz is best defined by listening to the drummer and bass player, and becoming part of their groove/feel. You'll never go wrong supporting and playing some rhythm that is part of what they are already playing, as opposed to making accents in-between their notes. And again, just sustaining organ chords/a pad sound/strings etc almost always works well until you're ready to venture forward.

 

For jazz, there are plenty of books/methods that teach comping rhythmic figures as a starting place. There are books of the comping done for some of the Jamey Abersold records that are a great resource of both voicings and rhythmic ideas. clonk Clonk2

 

I'll stop here, but these are some random thoughts on the subject.

 

Jerry

 

 

 

 

 

[Jose EB5AGV]

Here you have another of the band's original songs, with the same caveats than previous one.

 

Besar y conquistar by Complicada SenZillez

 

 

[Tusker]

I am so glad you posted those videos. Based on them, the issues you are solving for are "arrangement" issues which are broader than "comping" issues.

 

The best answers will be the ones you work out yourself, but on the first song seeing that there were two guitars and now there is only one guitar player, you can divide up the spoils.

 

On the second song, I would "think like" and "partner with" the horn player to work out your lines.

 

In a guitar anchored band, I generally just provide some signature bits which add to the dynamic and timbral range of the song. (Hint: Choruses are louder than verses usually. Make them loud and stay out of the way in the verses, especially the first verse.) I learned this early from Rick Wakeman, who when asked how to be heard in a guitar dominated band like Yes, said something like ... "the trick is to not play. Then when I do play, I am heard."

 

When do you play? 

 

Well if there is room in the rhythm, you can play in the rhythm. (comping) If there is room above or below the rhythm, you can play in that space. At other times, you just need to be the punctuation at the beginning and endings of sentence the sentence, guiding the band one sentence to another, or sometimes one paragraph (a feel) to another. If you look at Wakeman's early work, he often did fills. Where a drummer would provide fills, he would provide some transitional filigree. (most pop music has 4 or 8 or 16 bar sentences with punctuation in-between.) Over time he became more central to the texture of the band.

 

That is my interpretation of "the trick is to not play. Then when I do play, I am heard."

 

Hope this example helps.

 

 

[Al Quinn]

Thanks for posting the songs. It’s not clear to me if the current band has one or two guitars. Please clarify since suggestions for a one guitar band will be different than for a two guitar band. 

[Docbop]

The best comp'pers usually have worked as or studied arranging and approach finding a  rhythm and harmonic place in the song/band.    I remember a rhythm section class I took back in the day and the teacher had done rhythm breakdowns of big hit records like EW&F, Rufus and others.   He noted how every 16th note was being played but by multiple instruments finding holes they could fill.   Was really interesting seeing these breakdowns.   

 

Come to Jazz world I find more and more of the players I like think like arrangers in how they approach harmony and rhythm. 

[ajstan]

4 hours ago, Tusker said:

In a guitar anchored band, I generally just provide some signature bits which add to the dynamic and timbral range of the song. (Hint: Choruses are louder than verses usually. Make them loud and stay out of the way in the verses, especially the first verse.) I learned this early from Rick Wakeman, who when asked how to be heard in a guitar dominated band like Yes, said something like ... "the trick is to not play. Then when I do play, I am heard."

This is great advice.  The fact that there are no vocal harmonies leaves a space for you to play off the singer to provide more differentiation between the verses and the choruses.  Also, the bridges are a good place to add a change-of-pace to the instrumentation.

 

Guitar-centric bands with keyboardists can give you some general ideas to begin building your own "tool kit" of ideas.  In addition to showing how keyboards can effectively be incorporated into a song, Benmont Tench from Tom Petty & the Heartbreakers, Danny Federici and Roy Bittan from Bruce Springsteen & the E-Street Band, and (while not in the pantheon of greats with the others) Kevin Hearn from Barenaked Ladies (BNL) all have examples of creating simple but interesting and effective parts on the songs (or sections of songs) where keyboards aren't prominent.  

 

While Tom Petty's "Don't Do Me Like That" has prominent keys, listen to the organ in the bridge.  In BNL's "The Humour of the Situation" the keyboard line in the chorus mimics then deviates from the singer's melody to add interest, or "Falling for the First Time" where the keys cut through a wall of guitars in different ways through the song.  I wouldn't even know where to begin with Springsteen's catalog, but I'm sure that @Outkaster could.

[jarrell]

One thing to think about is parts vs. comping. In a jazz context, comping often is as spontaneous as a singers phrasing, or a soloist - it can change bar to bar, reacting to things others do or the player wants to do, or it can be more repetitive, or anywhere in between. In pop music you often find players playing parts - you come up with a good one or two bar rhythm, a voicing, maybe a line  and you stick with that - for each section. The verse may have one part, the chorus another, the bridge yet another. Sometimes it may be rigidly followed, other times, they may vary just the 4th or 8th bar, the ending of phrases are slightly different, or may vary more freely.

 

Of course these are approaches, not rules, but the idea is that pop music in general is more parts based, so listen carefully to songs you like, figure out what the keyboard player is doing. Even if you can't figure out everything, you can still get the basic rhythm, how busy it is, how it fits with the other instruments (fitting in with guitar parts is an important part, pardon the pun).

 

Wakeman's advice is good, and I would paraphrase it as, everybody doesn't have to be playing all the time. It's fine to let the guitar carry the verse, and just some in on the chorus or second half of the verse; you can also come in with just a single note line (that doesn't get in the way of the singer). Often less is more.

[Tusker]

33 minutes ago, ajstan said:

Guitar-centric bands with keyboardists can give you some general ideas to begin building your own "tool kit" of ideas.  In addition to showing how keyboards can effectively be incorporated into a song, Benmont Tench from Tom Petty & the Heartbreakers, Danny Federici and Roy Bittan from Bruce Springsteen & the E-Street Band, and (while not in the pantheon of greats with the others) Kevin Hearn from Barenaked Ladies (BNL) all have examples of creating simple but interesting and effective parts on the songs (or sections of songs) where keyboards aren't prominent.  

 

While Tom Petty's "Don't Do Me Like That" has prominent keys, listen to the organ in the bridge.  In BNL's "The Humour of the Situation" the keyboard line mimics then deviates from the singer's melody to ad interest, or "Falling for the First Time" where the keys cut through a wall of guitars in different ways through the song.  I wouldn't even know where to begin with Springsteen's catalog, but I'm sure that @Outkaster could.

 

These are terrific examples from which you can build your vocabulary. 👍👍

[Tusker]

Just to help you place your notes as a beginner (in a very generalized way), here is a map of the frequencies ...

 

1) The space from one octave below middle C downwards, belongs to the bass player. Don't go there, except with prior permission and for a special purpose.

2) The space in the octave below middle C mostly belongs to the Rhythm Guitar. Don't go there unless, you have a good idea of what you are doing. If you know what you are doing, you and the guitar player can do some very interesting stuff together.

3) The space in the octave above middle C mostly belongs to your lead singer. Don't go there until you have a good idea of what you are doing. Sometimes the singer wants you there for several reasons, including to help her find pitch. 

4) The space from one octave above middle C upward into the stratosphere, is yours and yours alone. Nobody else can play there. When you play there you enlarge the band and your band-mates will smile. Naturally, that's a place you should seek to fill, especially on those big choruses and sometimes on the bridges. As Jarrell mentioned sometimes you just a need a single note.

5) The Sax player will usually play from the octave below middle C to the the octave above middle C. So he will need to negotiate his relationship with the guitar and the voice. Generally, in relation to the voice, he will double her, harmonize with her, or fill gaps where she is not singing. In relation to the guitar, the guitar will generally play under the Sax.

 

That's your beginner's Frequency Map, but the subtleties are infinite. You can be a choir or other kinds of embellishment to the lead singer, you can be a Horn section to the Sax player, You can be like a second rhythm guitar player, or you can hang out in the stratosphere above everyone with a shimmering B3 or a crisp piano. And there is so much more to explore!! Have fun!

[Jose EB5AGV]

3 hours ago, Al Quinn said:

Thanks for posting the songs. It’s not clear to me if the current band has one or two guitars. Please clarify since suggestions for a one guitar band will be different than for a two guitar band. 

 

It has currently only one guitar

[Jose EB5AGV]

Thank you all for the great advice!. I am glad my current playing is not too far of some of the hints you give me, but of course there is plenty new to explore / try / learn 👌

[Al Quinn]

For the first tune I’d first decide which guitar part to cover on the intro. The melody guitar part sounds like it belongs with the guitar so I’d play an accompaniment part behind it. A little bit advanced, but not too difficult, would be to play sustained chords with one hand (perhaps organ or synth pad) and rhythmic chords with the other hand (perhaps piano or synth with a percussive attack). The rhythmic part would be the louder of the two parts with the sustained part just there to add body to the overall sound of the band. I’m assuming you either have two keyboards or one that you can split. Of course, that may not be the case.

 

For the verse I’d be looking to either layout or add a synth or organ pad that goes well with the rhythm guitar. The next section (around 0:49) I’d continue like the verse. It might be cool to layout on the verse and come in at the 0:49 section. Doing so would provide some contrast to the texture which is sometimes a good move.

 

The middle section (around 1:19) has lots of space. I’d be inclined to play some staccato off beat rhythmic organ (almost Regge-ish) but there are so many possibilities. For me, the choices have mostly to do with texture and rhythm. The notes are important but perhaps less so.

 

Just some thoughts that you can try if you want. Ultimately only you know what sounds good to you and what you’ll decide to play. 

[NewImprov]

Love this topic and thread. I think I like comping behind a soloist even more than soloing myself.