Played some Nords recently...(extended commentary)

[TWizzle]

I owned two Nords with the TP-100 action (NP2 HP and NE6 HP). The size, weight, usability and sounds were amazing but it was tough to get along with that action. When Nord announced that the NP5 would have a 73 note option with the same action as the 88, it piqued my interest. I love 73-key weighted keyboards.

 

Got to play one at a GC - they actually had it at the correct height and it was level, not tilted! Fell in love with the action immediately.

 

Sold my NE6 for $100 less than I paid for it, and was only another $200 or so in the hole when I used the money to pick up the NP5. Nords sure do hold their value on the used market.

[nadroj]

I think the thing a lot of people miss when playing Nords in stores or at a soundcheck is that they aren’t getting the chance to load in their own samples - piano or otherwise. 
 

I played friend’s Nords who’s pianos suck. I’ve been in stores and their £3000 stock pianos have sucked. On my Electro however, the pianos I have loaded are my favourite hardware pianos of any board I’ve ever played. I got rid of the ones that didn’t suit my ears. There are so many samples that aren’t in the floor models that I struggle to take anyone who uses them as a gauge for the full Nord experience seriously. 
 

I’ve said this before, but my Electro 4 is frustratingly limited in what it can do…but I’ve never enjoyed a board more than it. It’s my go to board for most applications, and if I have to do a gig with just one board, I’ll take that over anything more capable. 
 

The organ is better than the Swiss Army knife competition (Yamaha, Roland) and the pianos etc are better than the direct organ competitors (Hammond, Crumar, Dexibell, etc). 
 

They certainly aren’t perfect, but Nord are the only brand I know who do everything 90% well. Every other company who does 100% in something often falls dramatically short in other areas. 

[MathOfInsects]

49 minutes ago, nadroj said:

They certainly aren’t perfect, but Nord are the only brand I know who do everything 90% well. Every other company who does 100% in something often falls dramatically short in other areas. 

That's exactly it, to me. My NS3 is the only board that does everything I need, very well. In my experience, the people who bond least well with it are those who really need one main thing, plus occasional others. If you're mainly an organ player, yes, the Nord organ is very nice (now), but you'd likely find dedicated organ slabs you bond with better. If you're mainly a piano player, yes, Nord has some gorgeous samples (now), but you're never going to completely give in to the action. If you're mainly a synth player, yes, the A1 sounds great and is very tweakable in real time, but plenty of boxes are more directly up your alley. And so on. EPs, Clav, samples, etc. Many dedicated boards do those things better. 

 

But no board does all those things as well as Nord does. That makes it the perfect board for me.

Regarding the Piano and Grand...it's completely obvious when playing the Stage that the action is not going to be for everyone. They're not fooling anyone. They're just waving at weighted action so they can say they have it, but still leaving enough lightness to play organ and synth if you need. So even those who are devoted to the Stage know the action is idiosyncratic and polarizing.

 

But with the Piano and Grand, there is no "yeah, it's not for everyone" factor. It's objectively beautiful action. A particular player may like another brand's touch better, but there is no denying the quality of that keybed. It's spectacular. That's why I always encourage anyone who has tried to bond with the Stage in the past, to go put hands on the Grand. 

 

Buttah baby.

 

[b3plyr]

On 9/16/2022 at 6:17 PM, ElmerJFudd said:

Possibly part of their agreement regarding a feature they, Kawai, would keep for their competing boards?

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2986123/nord-grand-use-the-same-action-as-kawai-rh3-here-the-proof.html

 

 

Could be. I asked Nord why they removed the escapement (let off) and the answer was simply "we made a conscious decision to do so". Who knows what that means?

[AnotherScott]

21 minutes ago, b3plyr said:

Could be. I asked Nord why they removed the escapement (let off) and the answer was simply "we made a conscious decision to do so". Who knows what that means?

Some possibilities (completely made up)...

 

... leaving it off saved weight

... leaving it out got them a better price from kawai

... for some reason, their existing sample sets as already programmed didn't feel as good to play when played from the version of the action with escapement (i.e. there was a better FTEC without it)

 

or some combination.

 

Other theories?

[Delaware Dave]

Lots of discussion on this post about keybed feel.  As I use a gemini for my bread and butter sounds I dont need to worry about weak sounds, they are all top notch. I also dont have to worry about keybed feel; piano gigs I use my Gem 88, whose TP20 keybed is perfect for acoustic piano and when I have piano centric gigs, my Code 61 works great for organ-centric gigs and my PC3 with its SW keybed is my workhorse for all around gigs.  All of them trigger the Gemini, and since I have two Gemini's I've started the process of creating setups that allow me to call both modules and the ability to run 4 sounds simultaneously.  All my sound issues and keybed issues are behind me. Only issue remaining is setup, takes some time to setup my rig but I'm in a pre-wiring process to cut that down. Controllers are comparatively cheap so getting your right sound and right keybed should no longer be an issue.

 

[Al Quinn]

I wanted the Stage 2 HA88 to be the all-in-one keyboard I would love but despite trying hard for more than three years I simply did not. It was not inspiring to play and at times was actually distracting because of the finger to ear connection. Clearly, Nord is doing many things right but our chemistry isn’t good.

 

I recently bought a YC73 and although I no longer have the Stage 2 to do a direct comparison I like YC’s B3, Leslie sim, Rhodes, strings, and horns better than the Stage 2. Both have excellent APs but, for me, the YC is more playable. I like the synths on both a lot. Someday I’ll learn how to play clav but until then I don’t have an opinion on which is better. I think for the first time I have the all-in-one board I’ve been looking for with the YC.

[stillearning]

2 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

…But no board does all those things as well as Nord does. That makes it the perfect board for me.

Exactly why I love my Stage 3 88. One board does everything I need, at 9 out of 10. No one in the audience notices the difference between a great EP sound and a very good EP sound, imo.

 

At 68 yrs old, I’m shlepping 1 board, stand, pedalboard and bench, and use in-ears. Load in and setup takes maybe 15 minutes tops. 

 

[cphollis]

An additional thought?  Yes, Nord keyboards are significantly more expensive than similar alternatives.  Lots of good observations, including MOI's  "it does everything I want pretty well and the others don't".  That alone may encourage you, but consider the following?

 

Owning a keyboard you really like and use all the time will help you avoid GAS and $$ over the long haul.   Upgrades will be less frequent, you'll get better resale value, and so on.  I just paid a big whack for my NP5 73 -- but I'm expecting to use it for the next ten years or so.  Ditto with the Stage 3 Compact.  If investing $$$ for the right board keeps you from randomly GASsing, you'll be ahead.

 

 

[stoken6]

Here's a story: a friend of mine is learning keys, and wants to cover AP/EP, Organ and (analogue-style) synth - what do I recommend:

 

Q: do you want to play piano and organ at the same time? (Yes)

Q: piano and synth at the same time?

Q: organ and synth? (yes).

 

My response is that you probably need two boards for that, and more than two boards is inconvenient. But both boards need to pull (at least) double duty - if you have a dedicated (say) synth board, then the other has to be able to combine piano and organ. Not impossible, but rarer. (Plus to have piano/organ played from different keybeds, you need a synth board that can easily MIDI local off).

 

This is the speciality of the Nord Stage - add a controller of your choice and you can easily do this, because it's a triple-duty board: piano, organ, synth.Of course it's not unique:

- Roland VR has comparable capabilities on a smaller scale

- Yamaha YC gives you an FM synth, not VA

- Kurzweil gives you a workstation take on the same problem

 

So I want to recommend to my friend to get a Nord Stage Classic. Yes they're expensive (even secondhand), but they do the job of two boards, which adds to the "benefit" side of the cost/benefit analysis.

 

Apologies for the rambling nature of this post, I have been struggling to put together a coherent post on this subject for a few days, and just basically gave up and wrote whatever came out of my brain...

 

Cheers, Mike.

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, stoken6 said:

it's a triple-duty board: piano, organ, synth.Of course it's not unique:

- Roland VR has comparable capabilities on a smaller scale

- Yamaha YC gives you an FM synth, not VA

- Kurzweil gives you a workstation take on the same problem

 

So I want to recommend to my friend to get a Nord Stage Classic. Yes they're expensive (even secondhand), but they do the job of two boards, which adds to the "benefit" side of the cost/benefit analysis.

 

Yes. Piano+Organ+Synth all done reasonably well is a rare beast. Some of the limitations of even the alternatives...

 

Roland VR: most synth editing requires iPad (or 3rd party PC/Mac app); if you're splitting/layering two sounds, you can't put different effects on each; no aftertouch; no custom sample loading; very minimal MIDI functionality; no output routing (to assignable outs or even to pan a sound to one side or the other for separate external processing). No hammer action version, so less flexibility in which action you want for your external controller. And its pianos are not nearly Nord quality.

 

Yamaha YC: even the FM synth is very limited (you can alter timbres, but IIRC you always end up with organ envelopes, for example);  no aftertouch; no custom sample loading; no output routing

 

Others that come kind of close are Hammond SK Pro and if you stretch it, maybe Vox Continental. The Hammond, with its VA (mono, though its sample based poly synths are also highly editable) is actually the closest alternative, its big trade-offs are minimal real-time effects controls, and again, no aftertouch; no custom sample loading, no hammer action version, and meh pianos. Vox has minimal synth editability, minimal MIDI functionality (I'm not sure you can effectively even do the 2-action keyboard+controller piano/organ thing you're looking for), weakest organ of the bunch, and again, no aftertouch; no custom sample loading; no output routing. 

 

These boards also all have their strengths, of course (and not just being cheaper than the Nord). But Nord's feature set is unique, and it is a particularly useful combination of features/sounds for many people.

[allan_evett]

I've gigged a Stage 3, 76 since late 2017, and concur with the positive points made throughout this thread. Yes, there are both more extensively multi-timbral keyboards and stronger 'one-trick' pianos, organs and synths (of which I have a few), but the Stage 3 does all of that quite well for a single, live-performance instrument. Prior to that I covered single or 2nd-tier duties with a Hammond SK-1, 73.  I still prefer Hammond for clonewheel tones, and use the Hammond-sanctioned B3-X app for that (when very close authenticity is needed), but found that for additional piano and synth duties in a single keyboard the SK-1 came up short. And since the SK Pro was still a twinkle in Hammond-Suzuki's eye, I chose the Stage 3,76 at that time.  Five years later it still remains a central part of live shows for me.  

[stoken6]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

Hammond SK Pro

Of course - I knew I'd forgotten something. The Hammond can do the Nord's trick, at the expense of its acoustic piano patches.

 

I don't think Vox Konti can play one sound from its keybed simultaneously with another sound via MIDI.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Al Quinn]

I have an SK Pro 61 and, for me, the APs and EPs are not gig-able. I was hoping it was an all-in-one contender but I tired it for a rehearsal and a gig and said never again as an all-in-one. 

[AnotherScott]

4 minutes ago, Al Quinn said:

I have an SK Pro 61 and, for me, the APs and EPs are not gig-able. I was hoping it was an all-in-one contender but I tired it for a rehearsal and a gig and said never again.

Did you play with the velocity/offset parameters? They make a big difference. 

[Al Quinn]

Yes I did but still wasn't satisfied. The AP samples are very weak. I'm not sure but it seems like a combination of too few velocity layers and low-fi samples.

[Tom Williams]

13 hours ago, stoken6 said:

This is the speciality of the Nord Stage - add a controller of your choice and you can easily do this, because it's a triple-duty board: piano, organ, synth.Of course it's not unique:

[...]

- Kurzweil gives you a workstation take on the same problem

Funny -- that's one of the reasons I'm a Kurzweil fanboy.  My main gigging rig right now is a PC4-7 on top and a Nektar 88 key controller below, with "Multis" (Kurz term) that put synth on top or bottom, organ on top or bottom, and generally pianos on the bottom.  For half the price of a Nord stage.

 

I consider it to be another one of those 90% all-around things mentioned earlier in the thread: The pianos are good, though I like the sound of my PX-5S pianos better; I'm one of those people who actually like the KB3 organ, Leslie and all; and I find the VA synth voices sufficient. 

 

To be clear, I've only spent about 4 hours total lifetime playing a friend's Nord in church, and they were enjoyable hours indeed.  I have nothing negative to say about them.

 

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, Al Quinn said:

Yes I did but still wasn't satisfied. The AP samples are very weak. I'm not sure but it seems like a combination of too few velocity layers and low-fi samples.

Yeah... those adjustments got the EPs very playable to me, but there's less you can do about the APs.

 

19 minutes ago, Tom Williams said:

Funny -- that's one of the reasons I'm a Kurzweil fanboy.  My main gigging rig right now is a PC4-7 on top and a Nektar 88 key controller below, with "Multis" (Kurz term) that put synth on top or bottom, organ on top or bottom, and generally pianos on the bottom.  For half the price of a Nord stage.

Kurz is one of the strongest boards in terms of support for an external controller... better than Montage/MODX or Fantom/Fantom-0. Of course, being a workstation, Kurz also does a whole lot of stuff the Nord can't (e.g. 16-part multi-timbral operation, sequencer) and its orchestral sounds (strings/horns/winds) are much better. I prefer its EPs, too. I'd still give Nord the nod for acoustic pianos and clonewheel, ease of synth sound editing, real-time effects controls, ease of sample loading (but single velocity only).

 

[stoken6]

4 hours ago, Tom Williams said:

that's one of the reasons I'm a Kurzweil fanboy

Yup. Kurzweil do a lot of things right when it comes to MIDI control.

 

4 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

I'd still give Nord the nod for [...] ease of synth sound editing,

This. I'm doing a lot more sound editing than I thought I would on my Nord. From the scare stories I've heard, Kurzweil programming is orders of magnitude harder.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[stillearning]

I’m often called upon as a last minute sub for gigs, where sound editing on the fly is a factor. Nord Stage’s trump card for me. I can’t imagine using a workstation with multiple submenus.

[Tom Williams]

19 hours ago, stoken6 said:

From the scare stories I've heard, Kurzweil programming is orders of magnitude harder.

OT: Full editing on a Kurzweil can be pretty byzantine, especially on patches with 15 layers.  However, the current generation of workstations -- Forte / PC4 / K2700 -- has standardized mapping of a lot of parameters to buttons and sliders so you can grab controls for filter freq, resonance, attack, sustain, EQ, and delay effects (reverb, echo, and chorusing), tweak in a couple of seconds, and save a new version of a patch.  Not comprehensive, but much simpler and faster than before.

[octa]

Nord Piano 5 73 arrived today. As Dave said, "Damn this thread" 😛

 

It's cool. Not sure if it will replace YC88 yet. Continuing comparisons for awhile. I prefer the Nord piano sounds and effects, and compact size. EP's are a draw, and I just slightly prefer the YC88 action and definitely would miss the organ option for single board gigs. B-3X sans physical drawbars would fill this role I guess. These are just preliminary and subjective findings. 

 

One disappointment is I received Revision A, which is missing the Voice/Glide button (mono/legato portamento control "adopted from Stage 3") in the Sample Synth section. I didn't know there was a Rev B when ordering.  This button would make the synth section more useful and fun, and it doesn't seem like Nord is willing or able to add an ulterior method to access this feature. 

 

Maybe Nord will release a Stage 3 ex or 4 HA 73 (with drawbars and usb audio) next month, and I'll relinquish both these kbs (and probably some others to raise $7k or whatever heh) 🤞

 

 

[stoken6]

5 hours ago, octa said:

Maybe Nord will release a Stage 3 ex or 4 HA 73 (with drawbars and usb audio)

A 73HA stage would be cool. IMO Stage 3EX won't have USB audio, normally the EX is only a memory bump (and iirc the 2->2EX transition replaced the 76HA with a HP action, which is a shame). It would be a nice feature on a hypothetical Stage 4. 

 

Cheers, Mike.

[analogika]

4 hours ago, stoken6 said:

A 73HA stage would be cool. IMO Stage 3EX won't have USB audio, normally the EX is only a memory bump (and iirc the 2->2EX transition replaced the 76HA with a HP action,

 

The 2EX also shifted the compact 73 from F-F to the Rhodes-standard E-E keyboard range. 

[MathOfInsects]

2 hours ago, analogika said:

 

The 2EX also shifted the compact 73 from F-F to the Rhodes-standard E-E keyboard range. 

I wonder how involved an adjustment like this is. In my fantasy world we'd be able to order reduced-key keyboards in a range that we choose. Why are we still just going with whatever arbitrary subset the manufacturers choose, in 2022?

 

 

[AnotherScott]

27 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

Why are we still just going with whatever arbitrary subset the manufacturers choose, in 2022?

 

In the case of Nord, they are restricted by what Fatar supplies.

 

Personally, my ideal "top board" would be a 69-key E-to-C. That's the smallest possible board that has the high C I want for organ, the low E I want for left hand bass, and as a bonus, encompasses the full A-to-C range of a Wurli and the full F-to-F range of a clav. So if you want more than 61 keys, 69 gives you the greatest benefit relative to the smallest amount of expansion.

[stoken6]

43 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Personally, my ideal "top board" would be a 69-key E-to-C. That's the smallest possible board that has the high C I want for organ, the low E I want for left hand bass, and as a bonus, encompasses the full A-to-C range of a Wurli and the full F-to-F range of a clav. So if you want more than 61 keys, 69 gives you the greatest benefit relative to the smallest amount of expansion.

I'm finding low E to be insufficient for some of my uses - I use low D and low C quite often (low Bb for Thunder Road only!). I'd like a C-E 77-key or C-G 80-key.

 

You might say "you're most of the way to an 88", but 88s are tricky to fit in European midsize/compact cars, but a 76 is fine. So I suspect my options would be OK.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[AnotherScott]

54 minutes ago, stoken6 said:

I'm finding low E to be insufficient for some of my uses - I use low D and low C quite often (low Bb for Thunder Road only!). I'd like a C-E 77-key or C-G 80-key.

I don't like there to be any keys above C on top, if it's my organ board. So a 73 C-to-C works, but the typical 76 E-to-G is actually worse than my theoretical 69-key E-to-C! Not that I haven't occasionally found it useful to have those higher keys, but I'd be willing  to sacrifice that to have my high C for organ. (A hammer action "bottom" board is a different story.)

[Al Quinn]

I’ll take a C to C please. I’d gladly give up the top three notes on my YC73 to get three more notes on the bottom end. I especially miss the low Eb and D. Like Scott said C as a top note is ideal when playing organ.
 

When splitting the YC73 I find that low E is an awkward lowest note. I guess is has to do with how I voice chords that causes me to want a low Eb, D, and Db. I talking about a split where the lower half is shifted up an octave or two for playing chords. An example would be B3 on the left and AP on the right. Not having those notes sometimes forces me to move the split point an octave higher than I’d like.

[cphollis]

FWIW, I am now playing a new NP 5 76 under a fairly recent NS3C -- and I'm noticing all sorts of subtle but important differences between the two -- things you might not expect.

 

Here's the big one -- identical samples sound maybe 10% better when played through the NP5 vs the NS3C -- cleaner, more present.  I am suspecting that they are using a newer, better DAC on the NP5.  Pianos, EPs, horns, strings, etc. -- you name it, it's enough of a difference that if I can run a sample on the NP5, I'll do that over the NS3C.

 

The NP5 now has a "chorale" reverb option that I find musically useful.  Indeed, the entire reverb section is better now to my ears.  Many continually adjustable features (e.g. chorus depth, filtering etc. -- now are button presets, but they've made good choices.   Minor annoyance: USB transfer rate is *much* slower on NP5, leading to lengthy backups -- ~50min for a 3GB partition.

 

So, having torn up all my programs and started over with this configuration ... I found myself putting as much on the NP5 as possible, as it has a simpler workflow, and things sound better).  The NS3C gets used for what the NP5 isn't good at: organs, synths, aftertouch, etc. 

 

Keybeds are personal choices, I have bonded with the NP5 action fortunately.