Numa X Piano 73 - tp110 action - unintended triggering of sounds

[doorian]

I'm talking about the piano sounds here, although I think it affects other sounds too in principle.

 

It's about the following problem, which I didn't notice before updating to firmware version 2.0.

When playing chords, it happens again and again that a key of the held chord triggers again. To be more precise, one of the held keys reacts extremely sensitively to the slightest releasing movement of the resting finger, and thus triggers the sound again. I do not have a shaky hand! I haven't experienced this on other keyboards/digital pianos. 

 

You can see this quite well in the video.

 

I then took a closer look and noticed the following:

 

About 1,5 to 2mm before the end of the mechanical travel of the key, the sound is triggered.

The stopping of the sound seems to be triggered as soon as the position of the key on the way back reaches this point (1,5 to 2mm). 

It's as if there was no, or only a minimal, distance between the trigger and stop point.

 

I then examined the same thing with a Korg - VoxContinental keyboard. Here the stop point is about 2mm higher than the trigger point.

 

Numa X 

measured from top to bottom:

Trigger Off - 0,8 cm

Trigger - 0,8 cm

End of key travel 1 cm

 

 

Vox Conti

measured from top to bottom:

Trigger Off - 0,5 cm

Trigger - 0,7 cm

End of key travel 1,2 cm

 

On a Kawai MP11se I noticed an even bigger gap between trigger and trigger off points.

 

My question to the forum:

1. has anyone had similar experiences with a Numa X Piano 73?

 

2. is it not the case that a certain distance between the trigger and the trigger off point is necessary, to avoid accidental triggering? And also necessary to better support the repetition of the keys?

 

3. Is this condition a defect or a property?

[CyberGene]

That probably depends on the location of the sensor switches across the key travel. On an acoustic piano the key travel is usually 10mm and the escapement point is around 9mm (from this point on the hammer is ~1mm away from the string and the key is around 1mm from bottom but they travel with a ratio of 1:5, so the hammer will hit the string before the key bottoms out, or long story short: ~9.2mm of key travel is where you will hear sound), and the dampers are released at around 5mm, i.e. halfway through the key release.

 

TBH, I don’t have a pretty high opinion on Studiologic and their actions since I’ve seen problems with their sensor location and duplicated notes on my ex-SL73 too with the TP100LR action too. There are YouTube videos of a user attempting to spread these sensors out to eliminate the issue, so it’s possible the problem persists in TP110 too. This thread confirms my doubts about Studiologic as a brand. I had lukewarm experience with my Numa X 88 and I’m rather glad I replaced it with a CP88 which is so much better.

[doorian]

Thank you for the answer. Interesting!
Do you think it is possible that this condition was influenced by the firmware update?
Or is this purely a hardware sensors thing?

[CyberGene]

29 minutes ago, doorian said:

Do you think it is possible that this condition was influenced by the firmware update?

That’s also a possibility. AFAIK it’s a triple-sensor action and those usually use the uppermost sensor for note-off whereas the middle one is used to detect a restrike without full release (as on an acoustic piano). How that behavior is implemented based on the raw output signals of the three sensor switches is indeed a matter of software. 

[doorian]

ok, very interesting! thanks a lot again for this info.

[Al Coda]

1 hour ago, doorian said:

On a Kawai MP11se I noticed an even bigger gap between trigger and trigger off points.

 

My question to the forum:

1. has anyone had similar experiences with a Numa X Piano 73?

 

2. is it not the case that a certain distance between the trigger and the trigger off point is necessary, to avoid accidental triggering? And also necessary to better support the repetition of the keys?

 

3. Is this condition a defect or a property?

 

Now we´d need a comparison of Numa X w/ TP-110 and a Numa X GT !

WHEN the GT doesn´t introduce the issue,- it´s the TP-110 action and not the v2.0 firmware update.

I guess they use identical firmware for all models,- no ?

 

☺️

 

A.C.

[doorian]

AFAIK they do use the same version. I read in another post that the response of the GT had improved after the update.
So that could be: Because the hardware on the GT is different, software optimised for the GT and applied to the X piano has worsened the response.
That would be a rather bumbling procedure on the part of the manufacturer.  

But I don't know if that's the case. In any case, I didn't notice this behaviour before the update.

[HammondDave]

Not to sound like a Numa Fanboy, but really… how often would this occur in a playing situation?  I can’t imagine this being a problem when played normally.  I certainly have never heard this occur and I have been playing my X for months!  

[b3plyr]

6 hours ago, CyberGene said:

That probably depends on the location of the sensor switches across the key travel. On an acoustic piano the key travel is usually 10mm and the escapement point is around 9mm (from this point on the hammer is ~1mm away from the string and the key is around 1mm from bottom but they travel with a ratio of 1:5, so the hammer will hit the string before the key bottoms out, or long story short: ~9.2mm of key travel is where you will hear sound), and the dampers are released at around 5mm, i.e. halfway through the key release.

 

TBH, I don’t have a pretty high opinion on Studiologic and their actions since I’ve seen problems with their sensor location and duplicated notes on my ex-SL73 too with the TP100LR action too. There are YouTube videos of a user attempting to spread these sensors out to eliminate the issue, so it’s possible the problem persists in TP110 too. This thread confirms my doubts about Studiologic as a brand. I had lukewarm experience with my Numa X 88 and I’m rather glad I replaced it with a CP88 which is so much better.

I have had the opposite experience with Studiologic. I have had several of their keybeds in Kurzweil products, as well as Nord. They all worked well. 

[b3plyr]

5 hours ago, Al Coda said:

 

Now we´d need a comparison of Numa X w/ TP-110 and a Numa X GT !

WHEN the GT doesn´t introduce the issue,- it´s the TP-110 action and not the v2.0 firmware update.

I guess they use identical firmware for all models,- no ?

 

☺️

 

A.C.

No, the firmware will be slightly different as the keybeds have different physical responses. You can see this when you download the newest sound banks - there are two versions, one for the 73 and 88, another for the GT. However, for the most part, they should be identical. 

[b3plyr]

The latest firmware release greatly improves the keybed response, so there may be a tie in. One thing you could try is to do a factory reset and then reinstall the 2.0 firmware upgrade. Although it is a long shot, there is always a change that the firmware was corrupted. Just a thought. I do not have the issue on my Numa 88.

[CyberGene]

31 minutes ago, b3plyr said:

I have had the opposite experience with Studiologic. I have had several of their keybeds in Kurzweil products, as well as Nord. They all worked well. 

Each to their own.
 

Admittedly I’ve owned only three Fatar-equipped boards. The Studiologic SL73 Studio with TP100LR action which is hands down the worst hammer action I’ve ever experienced. Many years ago I owned a Korg SP-200 with some Fatar action I don’t remember and it’s also among the worst I’ve owned. More recently the Numa X Piano 88 with TP110 action which was good although I didn’t like how heavy it became towards the fallboard. However its touch response was pretty bad. That was before 2.0 though, I returned it before that. Products should be tested by as many pianists and musicians as possible before being released officially… Maybe it’s OK now but I have no great desire to understand since I already found my perfect stage piano, the CP88. To give a perspective, I come from a classical piano background and I own an AvantGrand N1X, so I’m usually appreciating actions that remind acoustic grands rather than Rhodes piano or other types of hammer-based actions. 

[b3plyr]

7 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

Each to their own.
 

Admittedly I’ve owned only three Fatar-equipped boards. The Studiologic SL73 Studio with TP100LR action which is hands down the worst hammer action I’ve ever experienced. Many years ago I owned a Korg SP-200 with some Fatar action I don’t remember and it’s also among the worst I’ve owned. More recently the Numa X Piano 88 with TP110 action which was good although I didn’t like how heavy it became towards the fallboard. However its touch response was pretty bad. That was before 2.0 though, I returned it before that. Products should be tested by as many pianists and musicians as possible before being released officially… Maybe it’s OK now but I have no great desire to understand since I already found my perfect stage piano, the CP88. To give a perspective, I come from a classical piano background and I own an AvantGrand N1X, so I’m usually appreciating actions that remind acoustic grands rather than Rhodes piano or other types of hammer-based actions. 

All good points.

[doorian]

8 hours ago, Al Coda said:

 

Now we´d need a comparison of Numa X w/ TP-110 and a Numa X GT !

WHEN the GT doesn´t introduce the issue,- it´s the TP-110 action and not the v2.0 firmware update.

I guess they use identical firmware for all models,- no ?

 

☺️

 

A.C.

AFAIK they do use the same version. I read in another post that the response of the GT had improved after the update.
So that could be: Because the hardware on the GT is different, software optimised for the GT and applied to the X piano has worsened the response.
That would be a rather bumbling procedure on the part of the manufacturer.  

But I don't know if that's the case. In any case, I didn't notice this behaviour before the update.

[doorian]

3 hours ago, b3plyr said:

No, the firmware will be slightly different as the keybeds have different physical responses. You can see this when you download the newest sound banks - there are two versions, one for the 73 and 88, another for the GT. However, for the most part, they should be identical. 

There is only one firmware 2.0 to download for all: 73, 88 and GT
The different versions of soundbanks is another thing. This maybe because of the better quality of samples for the GT

[doorian]

3 hours ago, b3plyr said:

The latest firmware release greatly improves the keybed response, so there may be a tie in. One thing you could try is to do a factory reset and then reinstall the 2.0 firmware upgrade. Although it is a long shot, there is always a change that the firmware was corrupted. Just a thought. I do not have the issue on my Numa 88.

When your say, you don't have the issue, does that mean that you have tested on your keybed that there is a gap between the point of sound-triggering and the point of sound-stopping?
Or does it just mean, that unwanted triggering don't occur when you play the keybed?

[b3plyr]

6 minutes ago, doorian said:

There is only one firmware 2.0 to download for all: 73, 88 and GT
The different versions of soundbanks is another thing. This maybe because of the better quality of samples for the GT

Yes, you are correct. I meant to refer strictly to the soundbanks. And no, the GT does not have better quality of samples. The difference is likely to take the physical differences of the 73/88 and GT keybeds into account. The soundbanks can carry more information than just samples, if necessary.

[kenheeter]

I don't think these nuances are important to me.  I have to say I love playing the TP110 after years with my Nord Stage TP100.  No bounce!!

[AlgoTrdr]

I've been playing the Numa X Piano 73 (firmware 2.3.1) for about 3 weeks now, and deciding whether to keep it (I have another week to go.) Reason for looking around is I'd like to have a weighted action to take on gigs. My original thought was to buy a Nord Stage 3 or Electro 6 with either HA or HP keybeds but the HA73s seem too heavy to gig with and the HPs seem to be universally panned on most forums. So here are some thoughts:

 

I'm coming from a MODX7 with synth action for gigs, and I practice on a Yamaha C7 grand daily. It took about a week of daily practicing on the Numa X before it started to feel natural but now I like it, and can see using it on a gig. It's not the C7 but it's more than acceptable.

 

The TP110 keybed is light years ahead of the TP100, at least the one that ships with the SL88 (which I returned immediately.)

 

I've recently played a Casio PX-560 which is lighter action than Numa X but the Casio feels kind of cheap, wobbly, etc., in comparison.

 

I have not been able to replicate the "unintended triggering" problem experienced by others with older firmware. Seems like its been fixed, or maybe was unique to that one instrument.

 

Sounds:

In a nutshell, the pianos are very good, not quite as good as the Nord pianos, but more than good enough for live performance. I'd call them a toss-up with the MODX7 pianos.

 

The Numa organ sounds leave a lot to be desired--even once you get the hang of working with them. For example, if you layer an organ with anything else, the rotary effect becomes a horrible vibrato-ish warble. And you can't change the drawbar settings, although Studiologic support has been super good, asking me to tell them what settings I'd like and they'll consider adding new sounds. Could I get by with it on a gig? Maybe, depending on how much organ I need but I can see getting frustrated with the lack of sound customization.

 

The strings, brass and pads are all fine, pretty much in line with the MODX7.

 

So will I return it? Not 100% sure yet but probably yes. Why? It's a lot of keyboard for the money--far more than a Nord. And it's a lot lighter than a Nord. And their support is excellent. But it seems to just fall a little bit short in some categories. Like if Nord comes out with an Electro 7 with the TP110 that would be perfect, or if Studologic added drawbars or some other way to customize organ sounds, either would work for me.

 

Hope this helps others facing this choice.

[stoken6]

3 minutes ago, AlgoTrdr said:

My original thought was to buy a Nord Stage 3 or Electro 6 with either HA or HP keybeds but the HA73s seem too heavy to gig with

The HA73 action is only available on the Stage 4 or Piano 5. The S3 and E6 have HP keybeds (and they are deservedly panned).

 

You should put the Yamaha CP73 and YC73 on your "try" list - their 29lb splits the difference between the 34-37lb of the Nords and the 26lb Numa.

 

I'd like to see Studiologic use the TP110 in a controller board. 

 

Cheers, Mike.

[AlgoTrdr]

Thanks, Mike. I have a feeling SL will come out with a TP110-based SL73 controller soon, since the old model has been in short supply lately.

 

I'll definitely try out the CP73 and YC73 when I can find them in South Florida.

[b3plyr]

22 minutes ago, AlgoTrdr said:

I've been playing the Numa X Piano 73 (firmware 2.3.1) for about 3 weeks now, and deciding whether to keep it (I have another week to go.) Reason for looking around is I'd like to have a weighted action to take on gigs. My original thought was to buy a Nord Stage 3 or Electro 6 with either HA or HP keybeds but the HA73s seem too heavy to gig with and the HPs seem to be universally panned on most forums. So here are some thoughts:

 

I'm coming from a MODX7 with synth action for gigs, and I practice on a Yamaha C7 grand daily. It took about a week of daily practicing on the Numa X before it started to feel natural but now I like it, and can see using it on a gig. It's not the C7 but it's more than acceptable.

 

The TP110 keybed is light years ahead of the TP100, at least the one that ships with the SL88 (which I returned immediately.)

 

I've recently played a Casio PX-560 which is lighter action than Numa X but the Casio feels kind of cheap, wobbly, etc., in comparison.

 

I have not been able to replicate the "unintended triggering" problem experienced by others with older firmware. Seems like its been fixed, or maybe was unique to that one instrument.

 

Sounds:

In a nutshell, the pianos are very good, not quite as good as the Nord pianos, but more than good enough for live performance. I'd call them a toss-up with the MODX7 pianos.

 

The Numa organ sounds leave a lot to be desired--even once you get the hang of working with them. For example, if you layer an organ with anything else, the rotary effect becomes a horrible vibrato-ish warble. And you can't change the drawbar settings, although Studiologic support has been super good, asking me to tell them what settings I'd like and they'll consider adding new sounds. Could I get by with it on a gig? Maybe, depending on how much organ I need but I can see getting frustrated with the lack of sound customization.

 

The strings, brass and pads are all fine, pretty much in line with the MODX7.

 

So will I return it? Not 100% sure yet but probably yes. Why? It's a lot of keyboard for the money--far more than a Nord. And it's a lot lighter than a Nord. And their support is excellent. But it seems to just fall a little bit short in some categories. Like if Nord comes out with an Electro 7 with the TP110 that would be perfect, or if Studologic added drawbars or some other way to customize organ sounds, either would work for me.

 

Hope this helps others facing this choice.

I agree with the organ comments. Here is my current solution. I run B-3X on my iPad and connect through the excellent USB Midi on the Numa. No, I don't have physical drawbars but can do ok with the touch versions on the iPad. But then again, I didn't get the Numa X for the organs. Note that Studiologic has been coming out with some good updates. I expect you can expect improvements across all areas - and most are really good already..

 

[Noah DC]

I also integrate my iPad with a simple cable to address the Numa X organ shortcoming (and add any other sounds I might need like Model D synth, Scarbee Rhodes, etc.) I just picked up a set of Ocean Beach drawbars to magnetize to the left panel of the Numa for controlling VB3 from an iPad, which I keep magnetized on the right panel. If the new drawbars work as intended, I’ll post about it on the main Numa thread as a point of reference. To each their own, but this solution is still at least one thousand dollars less than a YC73 and even more of a bargain compared to any of the Nords that have an action better the TP100. It just depends what you want to spend, I think - there is no right answer. 

[b3plyr]

1 hour ago, Noah DC said:

I also integrate my iPad with a simple cable to address the Numa X organ shortcoming (and add any other sounds I might need like Model D synth, Scarbee Rhodes, etc.) I just picked up a set of Ocean Beach drawbars to magnetize to the left panel of the Numa for controlling VB3 from an iPad, which I keep magnetized on the right panel. If the new drawbars work as intended, I’ll post about it on the main Numa thread as a point of reference. To each their own, but this solution is still at least one thousand dollars less than a YC73 and even more of a bargain compared to any of the Nords that have an action better the TP100. It just depends what you want to spend, I think - there is no right answer. 

Great idea on the drawbars. Could use GSI kit also.