Who Is the Worst "Worst Member" for you?

[RABid]

9 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

Bottom line, my experience is that the audience loves the singer above all others

That is also my experience. The band I joined as a keyboardist for the first time had a bass player and drummer that had played together for 15 years. Not fancy. Not showy. Just rock solid. Had a guitarist that later went to Nashville and started playing with the biggest names, and is still there. Had me, the kid that had never played keys in a band before, but was rock solid on timing. And what made the band come out of nowhere to be the top money making band in the area? A singer that the audience loved. We used to make fun of some of his interactions, but they loved it. So when I moved to Louisville and joined one of the most successful bands in the city I was shocked at how musically week they were. I ended up covering a lot of screaming guitar solos on synth, but the audience did not care. We had a singer they loved. It was my job to be a wall of sound. It was the singer's job to be a bossy bitch that became known as a black widow. She could bust up a band quicker than anyone. Also hated country music and anyone that looked the least bit country. Ironically she ended up in Nashville trying to make it as a writer. Took work as a backup singer for Patsy Cline, someone she used to make fun of. Yep, sold her soul for rock and roll, then the Devil sent her to Nashville. But, the audience liked her.

[DaveMcM]

On 7/5/2022 at 1:10 PM, RABid said:

I will say lead guitar because that is the part that people most recognize and remember note by note from their favorite songs. Get a guitarists that cannot play those iconic solos, or chooses to play them differently and you will suffer.

 

On the other hand, the most valuable player is a keyboardist that can and will cover everything necessary that the band does not have. Horn parts, sax solos, flute, harmonica, can all be covered by a good keyboardist. Extrapolating from that, if you have a keyboardist that refuses to play anything but true keyboard parts, it is time to look for a more bandcentric member.

I agree that a keyboardist can add more to the mix than other instruments. And I love throwing in horn lines in our 4 piece group when playing funky dance tunes or strings in ballads, etc. But when it comes to trying to cover a brass or woodwind solo, I draw the line. Years ago the band I was in played Shaker Song by Spyro Gyra and I covered the lead and solo with the sax patch on a DX-7 and breath controller. Sounded great, people loved it, but no one hearing the song on our demo believed it to be a sax. I much prefer to choose a sound that maybe has similar qualities to the original solo instrument but is still obvious that it is coming from the keyboardist. It's one of those 'just because you can, doesn't mean you should' type of things. But to each his own, if you dig replicating the exact sound/notes of a particular solo, more power to you.

[RABid]

1 hour ago, DaveMcM said:

I much prefer to choose a sound that maybe has similar qualities to the original solo instrument but is still obvious that it is coming from the keyboardist.

I started out doing it on a MiniMoog and later moved to a Moog Source. The Moog sounded nothing like a sax, but when the sax would growl I would use audio rate modulations to make the synth growl in its own way. I learned to cover some mean harmonica solos on the Chroma and it was more about pitch bend and vibrato and less about the sound. The only time I sounded close to the original was when I used to Chroma to cover screaming guitar solos. The genius that did the original Chroma patches had a few that morphed to a feedback guitar sound when you pulled the mod lever towards you. He also created a great patch that emulated the slow fade in of amp rumble, and it too got characteristics of feedback when you pulled the mod lever. By layering those I was able to pull off the type of screaming guitar you would hear in songs like "Politics of Dancing" or "I Love it when You Call Me Names". Both songs that we did at the time. Looking back I'm not sure how I pulled off all those synth parts in Politics of Dancing AND covered the lead guitar part, but I did and it was fun. The Chroma let me chain patches and step through them with a foot pedal. Most of the patches were either splits or layers. I also had a MemoryMoog, Source and SixTraks to cover lots of parts. With songs like that I was flying high and drawing a lot of attention. I was a small town hillbilly that had just moved to the city. My willingness and ability to cover those parts was my quick ticket to acceptance to the music scene. There were piano players that could eat my lunch on piano, but I staked my claim with a stack of synths and a drum machine. No one in the city was pulling off the type of solos I was doing on that Chroma. Not because I was something great. Because I had spent years breaking down synth barriers to move beyond just pitch bend and vibrato. I forced myself to learn how to squeal and growl and squeak on a synth. Little touches that made a huge difference. I played sax in high school and played guitar well enough to cover for two weeks when our lead guitarist quit. I could get real emotion out of those instruments and was not willing to settle for less out of my synth. Covering solos of those other instruments changed the way that I play in a majorly good way. It took a lot of time and work to get there, but it was worth it.

[re Pete]

There's nothing I hate more than out of tune music. How many bands tune up these days? A singer with a bad ear is obvious. 

But horn players. Wtf. I've played with a couple high school music directors that were so out of tune it was ridiculous. 

I subbed a friday the 13th gig for someone, no rehersal, and 3 horn jazz band. The leader didn't ask to tune up or do a sound check. 

The horns all out of tune. The bass player even mentioned it. Then they call a tricky chart that was so bad I couldn't follow them. It all sounded like sh_t. 

So bad I just stopped playing and I gets looks from the leader. Finally the next song, their horns warmed up or they adjusted, listened and things got better. 

I don't why it's taken for granted all will sound fine without a soundcheck first. 

Worst gig of my life.

[RABid]

7 minutes ago, re Pete said:

But horn players. Wtf. I've played with a couple high school music directors that were so out of tune it was ridiculous. 

When I was in high school, playing drums in band, we had an excellent tenor sax and three great trumpet players that were a year ahead of me. When they graduated the band was decimated. I rush to learn trumpet and sax and play most songs on those my senior year. While the band director always had us tune before practice or a show, he never taught me or any other sax player in the band that intonation can be off on high school quality saxophones. It was not until I taught myself Pink Panther that I learned that mouth pressure could affect tuning. I figured out how to bend notes and vary tone on the sax by experimentation, and thus deduced that I needed to pay attention and be very careful when hitting high notes or they would be out of tune. And none of that came from the high school band director.

[DaveMcM]

1 hour ago, RABid said:

I started out doing it on a MiniMoog and later moved to a Moog Source. The Moog sounded nothing like a sax, but when the sax would growl I would use audio rate modulations to make the synth growl in its own way. I learned to cover some mean harmonica solos on the Chroma and it was more about pitch bend and vibrato and less about the sound. The only time I sounded close to the original was when I used to Chroma to cover screaming guitar solos......

Very cool. Back in high school I ticked off a guitarist by playing a better guitar solo than he did. I had a Moog Liberation that I ran through an analog delay->overdrive->flanger and into a Sound City 50 watt head with a 4x12 SMF cabinet. I simulated unison bends (think Santana) by starting with both oscilators in unison, and before playing a note pulling osc 2 pitch down slightly, striking the note and bringing osc 2 into pitch. Later while working for Ensoniq and using a VFX-SD, I used the two momentary patch select buttons above the pitch/mod wheels to accomplish the same thing. Pressing button 1 would produce a unison bend, button 2 produced muted strings and both buttons down produced feedback.

 

BTW, Sorry to MathOfInsects for swaying away from the original topic.

[HSS]

On 7/6/2022 at 8:07 PM, KuruPrionz said:

Bottom line, my experience is that the audience loves the singer above all others, wants a chorus they can sing along to and a beat they can dance to. 

Lead guitarists and keyboard players are important second-stringers. I'm more known up here for singing my own songs than I am for my guitar work and I'm good on guitar. 

I agree.  My wife is a non-musician with a PhD.   At most, she can tell if the vocals and band are in tune, if there's a recognizable chorus, and if there's a danceable rhythm. She doesn't recognize signature instrumental licks or even what sounds the individual instruments are playing in a band. She doesn't even know all of the lyrics of popular songs she likes, she mainly just relates to the choruses.

 

Most of my non-musician scientist and engineering colleagues I worked with in the oil industry for 40 years, many of whom had PhD's, were similar to my wife and were astonishingly unaware of all of the nuances of music that we as musicians obsess over.   

 

IMHO cover bands, whose focus is making coin, often spend way too much energy and time trying to precisely emulate solos and signature instrumental licks.  Get the vocal chorus, the gross chord changes, and the groove right, and most of the audience, who are non-musicians, will be happy.  And just as important, create an entertaining stage presence and vibe. 

 

Having said this, here in Vegas where I live, tribute / copy bands in the big casinos are a whole different beast and require precise covers of songs, often even accompanied with a stage act imitation.   As such, IMO, they are essentially musical "impressionists", akin to comedian politician impressionists such as Rich Little.

 

FWIW... Since I'm a crappy weekend warrior who isn't in it for the money, none of the above really matters much to me.  I just want to play music that provides a therapeutic emotional release for me.  If I make a little money while doing, it, all the better,.

 

Edit: Apology to MathOfInsects for wandering very far off topic.

[MathOfInsects]

Well, in a complete coincidence, I got to test this theory today. The second half of my double was a private party. The guy who hired me onto the gig is a working musician here in town. He also writes his own music, and I played his album release show a few years ago. 

 

I knew nothing about the rest of the band, or even if there was a "rest of the band." It turns that 1) there was, and 2) not pros (in the literal sense). The guy I already knew was playing bass, and the others were a guitar player and a drummer. 

So I got to have the experience of a strong bass player and a weak drummer. 

Lots of really noticeable tempo issues, many missed entries after fills. And to make it worse, my first gig today was with one of the two or three strongest drummers I know.

But...honestly no big deal. Not that it didn't matter, just that it didn't sabotage my job as a keyboard player. The bass player was set up right next to me, so it was easy enough to hear keys, cues, and forms, and the issue in the drum chair was just sort of a logistical fact to adjust to--like mental annotations as we played. I knew what I was in for within a measure or two at the beginning of the night, and just kind of settled in for it. A complete contrast to two weeks ago when another version of that same guy was playing bass instead.

So, in a nutshell, upon further testing and additional reflection, apparently I heartily agree with myself.

[Biggles]

Is it ever that the keyboard player is out of sync with the rest of the band?

[eric]

Nice thread! I'll add a slightly unconventional perspective, not necessarily about a "worst" player, but about a "worst for the keyboard player" scenario and that is the presence of THREE guitar players in the same band, some of whom grew up in the absence of keyboard players, and thus have learned many of those parts to be played on guitar.

 

My main band originally had three guitar players before I was a member and I would occasionally sit in with them when one guitarist was out. Eventually one quit and they asked me to join, now that there was "space" for keyboards in the band. This was great and I really enjoyed it. One player and I had to still reconcile "who's got that part" when he was used to playing a keyboard part. No big deal.

 

Fast forward a few years and suddenly there was an option to add a third guitar player, who was a really talented singer and covered multiple bases to make the band better. Though we went right back to the issue that three guitar players create a lot of sound and it makes it hard for keyboards to find their place in the mix, not to mention a more crowded stage. Add to this that the newest guitar player was basically doing a ton of keyboard type things and I was very much getting lost on stage and in the mix.

 

Another guy ultimately left and we're back to two guitars, so life is better. During a few years when we were going strong with three guitars plus keyboards, I had to constantly remind them that "hey, I got that part" or "hey, can one of you just lay low a bit" or whatever. There was never much drama, as we all get along nicely, though I always felt a little bit less important when there were three guitars on stage.

[MotiDave]

On 7/5/2022 at 10:00 AM, BluMunk said:

Drummer all the way.

Maybe a side-effect of often being the music director, but I rely on the drummer being locked into their part, the tempo, and the groove for everything else to come together. If they're doing their job, it informs everyone else's playing. If they're struggling, it doesn't matter how good anyone else is, we'll never sound cohesive.

If I'm putting a group together, the chair that gives me the most anxiety about filling well is the drum chair.

Granted, you asked for "not what's worse for the whole band", but as [i]most[/i] of my gigs have involved me doing double duty as keyboard player and "guy who cares about the details of our sound", it's a little hard for me to separate them. 

And, "Jump" is only fun to play with a drummer who's really laying it down. 😛

Drummer for me too.  Worst thing for me is that wannabe Neil Pert who wants to show some chops and tries to slide in an extra roll or accent riff but can’t reliably pull it off in the correct timing.  Invariably he tries to add his Tommy Lee 2.0 signature accent before every significant song transition - throwing the entire band off for 3-4 counts to figure out where the fuck he, the central clock of the band, actually is.

 

Worse is when he blindly goes internal into a “zone” and stops looking at or paying any attention to the band because he “needs to focus”. So now you can’t even flag a signal to him like “dude you are fucking this completely up, knock it off”.  yeah - I’m thinking of a guy …

 

and for god’s sake - don’t ever agree to play any 5-4 song with this guy.  Save yourself the misery.  Thats chewing gum, patting head, circling tummy and jumping jacks all at once for this guy.

[KuruPrionz]

5 hours ago, Biggles said:

Is it ever that the keyboard player is out of sync with the rest of the band?

Yes, that is true. Poor timing is not rare or exclusive to any one instrument. 

[HSS]

On 7/10/2022 at 2:37 AM, Biggles said:

Is it ever that the keyboard player is out of sync with the rest of the band?

Never... If I crank my volume up and play a dynamic two-handed 13th chord with a flatted 5 followed by an ascending arhythmic whole tone scale run in the middle of an up tempo 1 - 4 -5 blues shuffle, I'm just trying to elevate the music.  Of course, said artistry would be accompanied by me standing up, kicking my piano seat over, and a pained emotive look on my face. I'm sure my bandmates will appreciate my soulful musicality.  Sorry for the sarcasm, but I couldn't resist. 

[HSS]

Back on topic...  IMO if the rhythm section sucks, a gig can be hell.  When the rhythm section is in the pocket, the gig is easy for the other musicians, barring obnoxious loud SRV wannabe "hats & strats" guitar heroes. As a former drummer, I put the onus for the rhythm section equally on bass and drums. 

 

I recently had an experience playing a couple of dive bar gigs with an unrehearsed improvisational 1 - 4 - 5 gut bucket blues band where the bass player, a retired High School band teacher, charted every blues song out and brought an Ipad with the charts to gigs.  The gigs were train wrecks because the bass player, who is otherwise a super nice guy, didn't play or even interact with the other musicians, he played with his Ipad charts. The harp player/ vocalist band leader fired the bass player after the second gig.

 

Having said this, I'm not averse to charts at all.  I use Ipads with "MySongBook" charts when needed.   They are great tools for more complex structured forms of music but IMHO they need to be fit for purpose. 

[JohnH]

Haven't had any bad drummers lately. The worst for me is the bass player that doesn't know the song, because I follow the bass and that really messes things up for me. Have had a couple of gigs lately the bass player was a sub and had no idea what he was doing.

[ProfD]

On 7/10/2022 at 2:53 AM, MathOfInsects said:

So I got to have the experience of a strong bass player and a weak drummer. 

  Drums and bass lay the foundation. Makes sense that you were able to stay on point by locking in with the 2nd half of that equation especially if the 1st was oscillating.😁

 

On 7/10/2022 at 10:05 AM, eric said:

Though we went right back to the issue that three guitar players create a lot of sound and it makes it hard for keyboards to find their place in the mix, not to mention a more crowded stage.

Brotha @eric, while you were able to make it work, my sympathy goes out to you in having to carve out a space in a guitar menage a trois.🤣😎

[SamuelBLupowitz]

Add me to the list of people who can't stand to play with a subpar drummer. It makes everything harder, and it makes everyone sound worse. Bad bass player is second, but it's easier for a drummer to compensate for a less-than-stellar bassist than the other way around. When you're a bass player, a drummer with bad time/feel is like running uphill all night. The audience pays attention to the singer more, but if the band's not together, that has a subliminal effect that's just as bad, I think.

 

I did my time with sloppy drummers and I won't deal with that anymore.

[Bill H.]

On 7/5/2022 at 9:47 AM, MathOfInsects said:

I don't mean worst for the band as a whole (drums, duh), or the audience (singer, duh). I mean, most able to make your personal job the hardest or worst?
 

 

The drunk. 

[RTPRocker]

The worst "worst" member for me was the guitarist/singer bandleader. We were a fourpiece guitar/bass/keys/drums, with the guitar player singing most of the songs...no problem. Halfway through a big city gig with 500+ people, he turns to me and tells me to sing a song, any song, so he can leave the stage to change costume. I had played several shows with this band, and never asked me this before. So here I am racking my brain what song could I lead that the barely competent drummer and bass player could play on the spot...and without lyrics. Or a guitarist. OK finally thought Sweet Caroline...of course bass player didn't know it...so I told bass player to stand next to me and I'll holler out the chords. On the recording, you can hear "F#...stay on F# until B now...where to begin...E...I can't begin to know it..." etc etc...he couldn't get the song structure so I had to do this the entire song! Oh well, people "BOM BOM BOM-ed" and it worked out, but after the gig I told off the guitar player, including I would never play with him again. He looked at me clueless, but finally stopped asking about a year ago. 

[ProfD]

1 hour ago, RTPRocker said:

he turns to me and tells me to sing a song, any song, so he can leave the stage to change costume...OK finally thought Sweet Caroline..

Great call.  Another song everyone knows and can participate...Old MacDonald Had a Farm". 

 

Otherwise, I sympathize for musicians having to play gigs that require costume changes. 😎

[obxa]

My bottom line- if the drummer is weak, the band will always suffer even it's all A players.  

 

For other worst "members" that make my life hell.....   It's my other world outside of "normal" band gigs ( broadcast  and shows for secular and ministry stuff) ...it's actually  Producers & Lighting Directors.   Sometimes Music directors (and I'm usually one LOL). . Oh, and clueless event planners.  But if I had to choose, most misery in broadcast/shows comes from producers.   Although there are some nice ones out there, most treat musicians like service animals.