The 'and' of 2 & 4

[Montunoman 2]

Within the 8 points in 4/4, I really love the "and" of 2& 4. Those points give an expanding and a leaning forward type of feeling to the music. That's what I feel anyways, when listening to a song like Miles Davis  "Four".  Another good  example is the way Red Garland often comps. He can  play several measures just playing his left hand  on the "and" of 2 & 4. which seems to propel his beautiful right lines forward. 

 

Check out his rendition of "C Jam Blues"  Pay close attention to his left hand comping during his solo. 

 

 

I have always just let my left fall where it wants when soloing with a rhythm section backing me up, and I never tried playing a more static pattern like Red Garland often did. Well, it turns out that it harder than I thought! I am having to go back to basic right hand lines that I already know, very slowly, stumble around, and work out the coordination. I am hoping eventually my left hand will go on autopilot, but until then I am feeling like a beginner. I guess that's the great thing about our instrument- there's always something new to learn, but I can't help but wonder, did Red Garland have workout the coordination or did it just come natural to him? 

[16251]

8 minutes ago, Montunoman 2 said:

Within the 8 points in 4/4, I really love the "and" of 2& 4. Those points give an expanding and a leaning forward type of feeling to the music. That's what I feel anyways, when listening to a song like Miles Davis  "Four".  Another good  example is the way Red Garland often comps. He can  play several measures just playing his left hand  on the "and" of 2 & 4. which seems to propel his beautiful right lines forward. 

 

Check out his rendition of "C Jam Blues"  Pay close attention to his left hand comping during his solo. 

 

 

did Red Garland have workout the coordination or did it just come natural to him? 

Probably his boxing background helped.

[Montunoman 2]

Wow, I didn't know he boxed, but that totally makes sense. Sorry, I don't really know boxing terminology, but those little punching bags can get very rhythmic. 

[Morrissey]

Great lesson on this topic (with pdf).  Lesson starts about the 33 minute mark of video.

 

 

[timwat]

 

[MathOfInsects]

I once had a (notably grumpy) drummer sort of condescendingly say to a bass player about one of my tunes, "It's the same comping pattern as the others. Just the and of 2." And it's true, I really feel that spot as sort of propulsive slot in the beat. Same with the and of 4, though not always in conjunction, or else they lose the ability to continue propelling (to me). That sense of settling into the longer "half" of the equation makes music feel vibrant.

 

To be honest, as a player it's often more of a surprise (when playing other people's music) if the change in that slot doesn't "push." That's often part of the conversation among the players--whether something pushes or not.

Though I don't condescend about it, Grumpy Drummer. I dig it.

Not that I have apparently held a minor grudge about this or anything.

[Bobadohshe]

Amazing how much in common that Red Garland C Jam solo has with Oscar's famous solo on it (which I have studied in depth). I wonder who cut it first.

[Al Quinn]

I spent some time with this Garland transcription a couple of years ago. Got it to where I could play the first page accurately. It was difficult and took a while before I could precisely mimic the rhythms and feel. Music notation doesn’t do it justice. Music notation is wonderful for note pitches but inadequate to accurately document Red’s feel. 

 

 

[Montunoman 2]

18 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

I once had a (notably grumpy) drummer sort of condescendingly say to a bass player about one of my tunes, "It's the same comping pattern as the others. Just the and of 2." And it's true, I really feel that spot as sort of propulsive slot in the beat. Same with the and of 4, though not always in conjunction, or else they lose the ability to continue propelling (to me). That sense of settling into the longer "half" of the equation makes music feel vibrant.

 

To be honest, as a player it's often more of a surprise (when playing other people's music) if the change in that slot doesn't "push." That's often part of the conversation among the players--whether something pushes or not.

Though I don't condescend about it, Grumpy Drummer. I dig it.

Not that I have apparently held a minor grudge about this or anything.

 In salsa type music the "and " of 2 fits so nicely on the "3" side of the clave. So beautiful to hear the band land together at the point, or when a melody weaves within the clave. 

[Montunoman 2]

20 hours ago, Bobadohshe said:

Amazing how much in common that Red Garland C Jam solo has with Oscar's famous solo on it (which I have studied in depth). I wonder who cut it first.

According to my Google search, Red Garland Trio released it in 1957, and Oscar Peterson released in 1963. Maybe OP studied Red's version in depth? 

[Montunoman 2]

11 hours ago, Al Quinn said:

I spent some time with this Garland transcription a couple of years ago. Got it to where I could play the first page accurately. It was difficult and took a while before I could precisely mimic the rhythms and feel. Music notation doesn’t do it justice. Music notation is wonderful for note pitches but inadequate to accurately document Red’s feel. 

 

 

So true, the notation is an aid to help us learn, but we really have to listen to get the full story. Even for for classical music!