Behringer UB-XA in the wild

[CyberGene]

The modern analog polysynths like the Take 5 are too perfect and in-tune and as a result they sound digital 😀 The fact they need a knob to make them more analog through intentional detuning and internal LFO-s and the likes is just silly. Why not take a Hydrasynth then and dial the "analog feel" up, it's the same thing. I really don't see the use-case except for saying "but that's true analog!". You either use a vintage VCO design (not DCO) preferably discrete based (think Moog and OB-X), or just use VST-s or modern digital synths and VA-s. Everything in between is an odd animal. But that's just my opinion.

[allan_evett]

24 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

43 minutes ago, CEB said:

Take 5 is a high dollar Gaia.  A very nice Gaia but a "player" shouldn't  waste rig space on a poly with only 44 keys and only 5 voices.   

The take 5 definitely eludes to the difficulties Dave faces when trying to provide a poly synth, a player’s synth that works in most of our budgets.  

 

Yes, some similarities to the GAIA - which is very good analog model.  The Take 5 does have a few more tricks on board, and compared to a budget friendly modeling synth it's true analog sound has a slight edge. But compare it to a higher end model - like Modal or Nord - and the distinction blurs; the Lead A1 model in my Stage 3 can sound insanely drippy and oily.  

I strongly connected with the Take 5 when playing it last fall at Sweetwater.  I could easily see it doing 2nd-tier duty for a variety of situations where 'that sound' is wanted.  Of course a GAIA could do similarly, and the audience wouldn't know the difference. Depends on the player and their budget.

[Jim Alfredson]

Cloning the Minimoog is far more simple than cloning a poly. Studio Electronics did it almost 30 years ago with the SE-1 and the SE-1x. That said, I can hear subtle differences in that comparison video, mainly in the upper end of the filter, especially with high resonances. The differences aren’t deal breakers and are small enough that they don’t matter, but they are there. They are probably due to the age of components more than anything.

 

I would like to hear the Boog in the room because in my experience there is something ‘alive’ about the Minimoog in the room that is hard to quantify or even capture. Again, it doesn’t matter in a recording but when you’re playing one, it’s like an organic experience.

 

I was playing my OB8 yesterday and it’s like that, too. It’s alive somehow. That Anderton’s demo was death.

 

 

[CEB]

The Gaia is okay.  It's cheap quasi VA with 64 voices.  The oscillators get flakey in the upper ranges.   Especially triangle waves.   I have one.   I used it for a couple of years before I got the Kronos on a couple of things it did well, primarily early Gaga stuff.  The Gaia was being used on the Monsters Ball Tour.  Heck I guess its still in production.   Ditched it when the Kronos replaced the 'Yo mama ha'  as my my main board.  I could program everything close enough on the Kronos and the VA oscillators on the Kronos engines are way way cleaner as well as the audio output back end.  It should be My Kronos was a $3700 workstation.

 

[kaptainkeys]

40 minutes ago, CEB said:

The Gaia is okay.  It's cheap quasi VA with 64 voices.  The oscillators get flakey in the upper ranges.   Especially triangle waves.   I have one.   I used it for a couple of years before I got the Kronos on a couple of things it did well, primarily early Gaga stuff.  The Gaia was being used on the Monsters Ball Tour.  Heck I guess its still in production.   Ditched it when the Kronos replaced the 'Yo mama ha'  as my my main board.  It could program everything close enough on the Kronos and the VA oscillators on the Kronos engines are way way cleaner as well as the audio output back end.  It should be My Kronos was a $3700 workstation.

 

The biggest issue I have with the Gaia is the fact that the supersaw waves are sampled, rather than generated by the virtual oscillators.  If you record it in stereo and flip the phase on one of the tracks, you'll get no sound, which generated supersaws don't do.

[CEB]

2 hours ago, CyberGene said:

The modern analog polysynths like the Take 5 are too perfect and in-tune and as a result they sound digital 😀 The fact they need a knob to make them more analog through intentional detuning and internal LFO-s and the likes is just silly. Why not take a Hydrasynth then and dial the "analog feel" up, it's the same thing. I really don't see the use-case except for saying "but that's true analog!". You either use a vintage VCO design (not DCO) preferably discrete based (think Moog and OB-X), or just use VST-s or modern digital synths and VA-s. Everything in between is an odd animal. But that's just my opinion.

Roger from Head East, his tech moved to Colorado quite a while ago.  He is the only guy besides Roger that could work on Roger's synths.  He took the Moog to Colorado for badly needed maintenance.  When Roger picked it up his tech said he replaced the oscillators with newer parts that were more stable and would hold tune.   Roger about s***.  He said something to the effect of you better put them back or I will kill you.    Its the instability that gives that old beast its character we all love.    The story ended well.  The parts were still in the trash and got put back.

[MikeT156]

So HOW MUCH is it?

[conundrum]

On 5/18/2022 at 11:43 AM, Bill H. said:

Agree with many that there's an air of desperation to the timing of this video - which is essentially yelling "Don't look over there! Look over here!" - that just doesn't feel right. And we still don't have a release date on this thing yet. It's actually kind of sad...

...

 

Ryan Reynolds/But why?

 

Is someone who's ready to plunk down $$$$ for the real deal reissue, going to be swayed by a $1500+ usd clone?

[MikeT156]

Big name acts can afford to pay 5 grand for the real deal. :Local bands are getting the same money we were getting 40 years ago. There are a lot less Venues that offer live music today than back in the dark ages. Behringer will get some business for the price range their clone will be listed.

[CEB]

But Mike that is the wrong way to think about it.  You have to consider all the multitasking capabilities of true analog hardware.  Sure a restored Memorymoog is very expensive but those 18 analog oscillators can heat your house in the winter saving on fuel costs.  

[MikeT156]

The new Oberheim sounds better. Its the real deal. The Berhringer is not as FAT, but people without the funds might give it a shot.

 

Heating Cost and electricity bills will be going out of sight this year and for the foreseeable future/. I don't know how I am going to pay my bills.

I'm living on a small SS payment.

 

Mike T.

[Aynsley Green]

12 hours ago, CyberGene said:

The modern analog polysynths like the Take 5 are too perfect and in-tune and as a result they sound digital 😀 The fact they need a knob to make them more analog through intentional detuning and internal LFO-s and the likes is just silly. Why not take a Hydrasynth then and dial the "analog feel" up, it's the same thing. I really don't see the use-case except for saying "but that's true analog!". You either use a vintage VCO design (not DCO) preferably discrete based (think Moog and OB-X), or just use VST-s or modern digital synths and VA-s. Everything in between is an odd animal. But that's just my opinion.

 

The recent reaction to the Juno X was telling - the hobbyists were all up in arms because it's not analog, while the pros were happy because it is a sensible gigging instrument that will stay in tune. The reality is that most of the bearded hipsters who worship at the altar of analog fetishism are not 'players'. Meanwhile, top-tier cats like Dennis Hamm or Shaun Martin still tour with 'archaic' boards like a Motif XF or a Kronos, and will still kick your ass. The sound is in the hands.

[conundrum]

You say that, yet what % of the market for these boards is actually made up of “serious” players, who make a living from live playing, and what % is made up of weekenders and hobbyists? 

 

So Roland et al should only be concerned about the touring gurus? It’s a pretty niche market as it is.

[ProfD]

IMO, the manufacturers are doing it right in bringing instruments to the marketplace.

 

Let the end users...hobbyists, weekend warriors and pros alike decide how to get the most out of those instruments according to their needs.😎

[Stokely]

As a bit of a aside on the whole phat analog vs cheesy digital, I programmed a pretty decent patch on my MODX for "Don't tell me you love me"  (that super-fun if cheesy Nightranger song, sue me!)   We tried it at a low-pressure gig last night, no practice beforehand AND a sub drummer, so a few hiccups    Anyway, our bass player can hear me very well (he will point out nuances in my patches he likes between sets, always a surprise) with his high-end IEMs and he was really impressed with that patch.  I think they used a Super JX for it, or at least that was one synth they used to use.  Anyway, just kind of tells me that for my cover band live needs, an analog synth would be...extra.  Heck I have a semi-analog synth that I just can't get into my rig (Summit) because the MODX is too useful playing organ from my ipad.   The MODX is going to surely lose right next to an Oberheim all by itself, but during a show?  Not enough difference to matter.

And none of this logical blather stops me from wanting more synths, Oberheim in particular was my holy grail sound growing up followed closely by the Prophet!

 

[ChazKeys]

14 minutes ago, ProfD said:

IMO, the manufacturers are doing it right in bringing instruments to the marketplace.

 

Let the end users...hobbyists, weekend warriors and pros alike decide how to get the most out of those instruments according to their needs.😎

I agree and perhaps without the Behringer effect some of these classics wouldn't have been reissued. And in the end it's down to what you need and your budget. At least everyone has a choice. It's worth noting Behringer describe the UB-Xa as having "16 authentic VCO/VCF voices based on the original 3340/3320 circuitry"  and none of the recent copy mentions the OB-Xa - might be distancing themselves from the comparison as it probably does sound a bit different -in a similar way to the MiniMoog/Model D does as Jim A pointed out earlier. Not sure that's a bad thing as long as it's sounds good. But if you never owned or even played an original if fits in with your music/budget/needs then why not? 

[allan_evett]

23 hours ago, CEB said:

 I could program everything close enough on the Kronos and the VA oscillators on the Kronos engines are way way cleaner as well as the audio output back end.

 

 

Those VA engines in the Kronos/Nautilus are very useful. I sold my original Kronos 61 in mid 2020, thinking my Fantom and Minilogue would cover the synth itch. The Minilogue was impressive, for a mini, budget-friendly analog machine. But despite its broad coverage, the Fantom still has that Roland 'sheen' on everything; Korg AL-1 does a better job being a mimic for many different synths. I sold the Minilogue and a Kross 2, and picked up a Nautilus 61 - which I like better for navigating than the original Kronos. 

Had entertained the Take 5 as a 2nd tier, thinking it wold be tasty above my Stage 3 for live work. But the Nautilus 61 is fine for 2nd tier, and the added ROMpler firepower is a plus.

[MikeT156]

When I was still gigging as a one man band, my Yamaha Motif ES8 covered all of the bases. It was nice to have a second KB for additional sounds, especially when I used up all 16 tracks in the sequencer. The more I used that instrument, the more I learned about it capability. Being that I was my own roadie, carrying a 2nd KB got old fast. Often times I only used it for 3 or 4 songs, and some nights I didn't play those songs. 😯

 

The other issues was the foot print of a second KB. I didn't have the room for a 5 octave KB so I used my Alesis ION when I was playing a gig where the songs I used the ION were requested or I knew I could play for the audience I was entertaining. 

 

The KBs we carry depend on the kind of music we play and the audience we are entertaining,

 

Mike T.

[Aynsley Green]

9 hours ago, Stokely said:

As a bit of a aside on the whole phat analog vs cheesy digital, I programmed a pretty decent patch on my MODX for "Don't tell me you love me"  (that super-fun if cheesy Nightranger song, sue me!)   We tried it at a low-pressure gig last night, no practice beforehand AND a sub drummer, so a few hiccups    Anyway, our bass player can hear me very well (he will point out nuances in my patches he likes between sets, always a surprise) with his high-end IEMs and he was really impressed with that patch.  I think they used a Super JX for it, or at least that was one synth they used to use.  Anyway, just kind of tells me that for my cover band live needs, an analog synth would be...extra.  Heck I have a semi-analog synth that I just can't get into my rig (Summit) because the MODX is too useful playing organ from my ipad.   The MODX is going to surely lose right next to an Oberheim all by itself, but during a show?  Not enough difference to matter.

And none of this logical blather stops me from wanting more synths, Oberheim in particular was my holy grail sound growing up followed closely by the Prophet!

 

There is such a thing as 'good enough', especially when fits in a small flight case and you can program your entire show into it. The MODX6 and the Fantom-06 are great problem-solvers - just backline an 88 and MIDI it in, there's your show. 

  

9 hours ago, conundrum said:

You say that, yet what % of the market for these boards is actually made up of “serious” players, who make a living from live playing, and what % is made up of weekenders and hobbyists? 

 

So Roland et al should only be concerned about the touring gurus? It’s a pretty niche market as it is.

 

Backline companies, churches, schools, musicals, venues, studios, TV orchestras, Service Bands, pros, aspiring-pros, students...it's a big market. You raise a good point though, I'm sure these companies spend no small amount of time discussing the 'ratio' of pro vs hobbyist and design their products accordingly - leave it to the boutiques to make the niche $5000 mega-analog-synths, the Japanese brands are selling to the mass market.

[ChazKeys]

Poly AT demo. It sounds good but there seems to be plenty of delay/reverb so can't really tell. AT seems responsive - he doesn't seem to using too much pressure to get the desired result. 

 

 

 

[ProfD]

On 5/21/2022 at 10:48 AM, Stokely said:

As a bit of a aside on the whole phat analog vs cheesy digital, I programmed a pretty decent patch on my MODX...

 

Anyway, just kind of tells me that for my cover band live needs, an analog synth would be...extra. 

 

And none of this logical blather stops me from wanting more synths, Oberheim in particular was my holy grail sound growing up followed closely by the Prophet!

Especially when it became impractical to schlep and maintain analog synths to be used for a handful of sounds, gigging musicians have been programming sounds that are *close* enough to the recorded  part on every digital synth, ROMpler, workstation, etc., manufactured since the mid-1980s. 

 

Most of the analog synth resurgence has been fueled by the fact that we have *grown up* into adults who can afford to buy them. 

 

Sonically, there is a difference between an analog and digital sound source.  Lay hands on a Moog or Prophet 5/10 or Obie and it oozes sonic goodness effortlessly. 

 

The *gain* from an analog synth will be mostly inspirational.  Getting that from a digital synth takes some work but it's possible.

 

Otherwise, IMO, the differences between analog and digital are negligible when it comes to playing, composing and performing music. 

 

It has less to do with the gear and really comes down to the imagination and creativity of the person laying hands on the KB. 😎

[Stokely]

I have low tolerance for things being out of tune.  I realize that a little is a good thing.  I think my attitude comes from doing a lot of recent outdoor gigs here in Florida, and guess which instrument is having tuning issues.  Has six strings and is pretty important in classic rock.  Making this worse, the songs that start with guitar and vocals, now the vocal may be a bit out of tune to match the guitar.  Ugh.  I keep thinking something is wrong with my keyboards, bassist said he was wondering if he was the one out of tune.  That's something even a crowd full of non-musicians can pick up on.

[kaptainkeys]

1 hour ago, Stokely said:

That's something even a crowd full of non-musicians can pick up on.

Like the musical road in california? 😂