ASM Hydrasynth - is it really "too digital"?

[miden]

After reading some glowing opinions here in other threads I began to investigate this as a replacement for the Blofeld.

 

A comment I seem to read often, is that the ASM is too "digital" or whatever that means..."cuts like a knife" I was told, straight through your head....I must admit that some of the demos I have heard online seem to refute this and it sounds ok to me via cans or monitors...but they are web demos and I have no idea of what processing has gone to produce the demos.

 

So, as I know a few folks here have one, I thought I'd ask actual owners and users.

 

Thanks

[GovernorSilver]

The Deluxe model, at least, sounded better to me in the store than in any Youtube video that I heard.   I did not however take a look at exactly what monitors it was connected to.

 

Granted, when I play a Youtube video, the sound is coming out of my computer speakers, not studio monitors.

 

"Better" to me is not related at all to "more/less digital".    In-person hearing through decent monitors always beat out words typed into forums for me.

[miden]

7 minutes ago, GovernorSilver said:

......................."Better" to me is not related at all to "more/less digital".    In-person hearing through decent monitors always beat out words typed into forums for me.

 

Yes, totally agree - but when one lives a 3 1/2 hour drive away (7 hours round) it makes that a TAD difficult   - and even then that store does not have it in stock.

[GovernorSilver]

3 hours ago, miden said:

 

Yes, totally agree - but when one lives a 3 1/2 hour drive away (7 hours round) it makes that a TAD difficult   - and even then that store does not have it in stock.

 

I'm on another forum where more than half the membership thinks nothing of buying a synth, then returning it if they don't bond with it within 24 hours of reception.  Some of those folks buy at least one synth a month.

 

Obviously this requires choosing a store with the suitable policies.

 

fwiw, the Hydrasynth that I tried in-store sounded different to me, compared to more famously digital synths such as the Roland D-50 and Yamaha DX7.  And definitely a whole different vibe than my Korg Wavestate.   Well, none of them really sound like each other either.

 

.

 

[miden]

2 hours ago, GovernorSilver said:

 

I'm on another forum where more than half the membership thinks nothing of buying a synth, then returning it if they don't bond with it within 24 hours of reception.  Some of those folks buy at least one synth a month.

 

Obviously this requires choosing a store with the suitable policies.

 

fwiw, the Hydrasynth that I tried in-store sounded different to me, compared to more famously digital synths such as the Roland D-50 and Yamaha DX7.  And definitely a whole different vibe than my Korg Wavestate.   Well, none of them really sound like each other either.

 

.

 

 

 

Yeah, one of the things I like about the US system....down here you can only return if faulty or not "fit for purpose"...not change your mind....the ones that do have a (usually) 14 day return policy for any reason, are very few a far between...and the ones that do (that I know of) do not stock it.

[miden]

2 hours ago, GovernorSilver said:

 

.......  Well, none of them really sound like each other either.

 

 

 

 

haha! you'd hope they didn't sound the same hey!

[Doerfler]

hey Dennis. I did own a Blofeld desktop for a while and currently own a 49 key Hydrasynth. I never gigged with either, home studio use only.

The Hydrasynth is not meant to simulate analogue synths, IMO.

"The Blofeld is not only capable of producing these warm, organic analog sounds known from the Q synthesizer line"

"it also sports a wavetable engine like its predecessors with "Wave" in their names."

I would say the Hydrasynth is geared to the second quotation taken from the Waldorf website.

When I would play a "Moog like" lead sound from the Blofeld it sounded like a VA synth. 

Playing the same type of sound from the Hydrasynth doesn't sound like a VA synth.

I did purchase synth patches from this company (not affiliated in any way) that would be helpful for gigging.

https://www.ultimatepatches.com/synth-patches-presets/asm-hydrasynth/hydrasynth-patches-presets.html

Also, Marino has provided excellent patches to MPN forum members at no charge. 

 

[miden]

Thanks Dave really appreciate the insight and the link, checking it out now.

EDIT: very nice sounds going on there.

[CyberGene]

I’ve owned my Hydrasynth for more than a year and I have to admit I’ve had my fair share of hesitations about it. I considered selling it in the first months. One reason being it can indeed sound harsh and digital. But I realized it can also be very warm and analog. It can do many things and understandably most patches endorse its proud digital nature which can mislead you into thinking it’s only a cold digital synth. Not really helping is the fact the init patch is the deadest coldest thing on earth ❄️ It’s a perfect saw wave with a zero attack and no reverb, effects or modulation, hence no imperfections added to it. But once you start modding it properly, it can be lushly warm and analog. 
 

A few advices here:

- Set “analog feel” in the voice section to at least 20

- Enable warm mode

- Enable random phase

- Roll-off the filter slightly

- (very important) Add filter drive

- Use the 24dB or 24dB Fat filter 

- Add at least 5ms of attack

- Change envelope curves, for instance 25 has been suggested by Glenn Darcey to resemble Minimoog curves

- If you need a triangle wave to be minimoogish, blend it slightly with a sine wave in the wavescan mode

- Use cloud reverb to resemble spring reverb

 

I've suggested to them to make it possible to initialize a patch to these alternative (analogish) settings instead of the dead one that is the default. 

[ProfD]

6 hours ago, CyberGene said:

I've suggested to them to make it possible to initialize a patch to these alternative (analogish) settings instead of the dead one that is the default. 

There should be enough user preset locations to set up a variety of init patch *templates* containing those alternative settings.😉

 

I do not own a Hydrasynth but I haven't scratched it off my radar either. 😎

[CyberGene]

1 hour ago, ProfD said:

There should be enough user preset locations to set up a variety of init patch *templates* containing those alternative settings.😉

 

Yes, exactly what I've done. Speaking of which, there's some silliness with the Hydra that I never liked: there's no way to "reset" a stored patch. You can of course initialize a patch and then go through Save (to override it with the initialized one) but you will have to also rename it since it will stay with the name of the patch. Or in other words, there's no such thing as "empty" patch position. In the past they used to ship the instrument with some banks being "empty" which in fact means they are named "INIT" and contain an initialized patch. This leads to a lot of confusion and many people use the patch manager to fill in all the banks and then ask: how to delete a patch (and revert to INITI) 😀 Turns out it requires some tedious manual steps, as I explained. Which is why I created a bank with all "INIT" patches (luckily you can spawn then through copy-paste in the software manager, I didn't manually cleared 128 positions) and it was a very popular bank on the Hydrasynth Facebook page 😀 Not sure how many people can actually imagine that in their head: you download a bank of patches to install it in your Hydra. A bank of all empty patches 🤣

[ProfD]

46 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

Speaking of which, there's some silliness with the Hydra that I never liked: there's no way to "reset" a stored patch...there's no such thing as "empty" patch position.

ASM got so many things *right* with their 1st poly synth that something had to give.😁

 

I believe the Novation Summit has empty user slots.  But, some Dave Smith Instruments duplicate factory presets in the user banks. 

There is no rhyme or reason or consistency in how manufacturers offer user banks. 

 

I guess we should be thankful to have somewhere to park our sh8t, er, sounds.🤣😎

[GovernorSilver]

17 hours ago, miden said:

 

haha! you'd hope they didn't sound the same hey!

 

Might as well mention that the Hydrasynth Deluxe that I tried in the store, was set up next to a Prophet 5.   Before I touched it, I thought, "this should be an easy comparison - the Prophet will sound thick and comfy as always and the Hydrasynth should sound icepick into your eardrum digital as its critics claim".

 

Nope, not so simple.  The Hydrasynth presets that I tried were not attempting to copy analogy synth, yet the high frequencies were rolled off in a pleasant fashion, and there was some nice mid-range frequency content that musos seem to love hearing.  

 

I interpret "too digital" to mean high frequencies being relatively high dB (0dB or higher) and mid frequency presence (below -12dB), with mid-to-low frequencies particularly low dB in comparison to the highs.  Now, I didn't use a frequency analyzer or anything like that - just basing this on my own modest experience playing with EQs.  The presets that I tried did not match this description, unlike certain DX7 and D50 presets.  

 

 

[RABid]

Well, I've been criticized and made fun of here for claiming that it sounds digital to me. I assumed these people knew the reasoning behind the term "digital" when describing sound, but maybe they have no first hand experience of the evolution of synths when they evolved from analog to DCO to fully digital. But not everyone gigged in the 1980's and lived through the transition. In general the term means that it sounds a bit thin, bright, and not much bottom. Especially not much smooth bottom. It is not always bad. Roland ROMplers had a reputation for sounding thin compared to Korg and Yamaha, but they layered very well in the mix which is why so many studios use them. The PPG sounds digital and I would not want it to sound any other way. Those airy pads earned a place in many productions. I had an EML 400j/401 synth/sequencer built around 1980 that was totally analog. The most digital sounding analog I ever owned. I am not sure if it was the filter or the built in quantization, the first quantizer I ever saw. Anyway, ...

 

It is all about perspective and need. If you want to emulate a Prophet 5, MemoryMoog, Jupiter 8 or Oberheim be prepared for a lot of work and concessions. The Jupiter X or Xm does it better, but for a lot more money. Other options are a Virus or one of the Korgs.  If you don't care about sounding like the analogs form the early 80's and you like the sounds it makes, it is a great deal. I'm still thinking about getting one to go with my Jupiter Xm and Wavestate. Lately I have been spending way too much on my modular system to buy another keyboard. I'm also holding off and hoping they will release version 2 with faster processing and better filters. I like what they have done and it is an amazing first instrument. Cannot wait to see what the second release is like. I remember when Native Instruments finally got a good filter for Reaktor. It made a huge difference. I think the same thing could happen with Hydrasynth.

[Doerfler]

1 hour ago, RABid said:

 

 

It is all about perspective and need. If you want to emulate a Prophet 5, MemoryMoog, Jupiter 8 or Oberheim be prepared for a lot of work and concessions. The Jupiter X or Xm does it better, but for a lot more money. Other options are a Virus or one of the Korgs.  If you don't care about sounding like the analogs form the early 80's and you like the sounds it makes, it is a great deal. 

Completely agree with all of these points. 

[Iconoclast]

The Hydrasynth presets are not even attempting to be a copy of some analog synth. So if you just breeze through the presets, it's way digital.

However if you all the things CyberGene said (copied here for convenience), it get's pretty darn close. When I put it next to my OB-6, it can't really copy Ob-6 patches precisely, especially with the new analog slop control the OB-6 has, BUT I doubt that anyone just listening would be offended by the Hydra's sound. In addition, the Hydra does about a zillion things that most analog synths can't come close to. (Poly AT, Ribbon, endless mod options, wavetable/wavescanning, FM, multiple filter models in two different filter slots, programmable macros etc)
 

A few advices here:

- Set “analog feel” in the voice section to at least 20

- Enable warm mode

- Enable random phase

- Roll-off the filter slightly

- (very important) Add filter drive

- Use the 24dB or 24dB Fat filter 

- Add at least 5ms of attack

- Change envelope curves, for instance 25 has been suggested by Glenn Darcey to resemble Minimoog curves

- If you need a triangle wave to be minimoogish, blend it slightly with a sine wave in the wavescan mode

- Use cloud reverb to resemble spring reverb

[Grubhead]

On 4/20/2022 at 1:37 PM, Iconoclast said:

The Hydrasynth presets are not even attempting to be a copy of some analog synth. So if you just breeze through the presets, it's way digital.

However if you all the things CyberGene said (copied here for convenience), it get's pretty darn close. When I put it next to my OB-6, it can't really copy Ob-6 patches precisely, especially with the new analog slop control the OB-6 has, BUT I doubt that anyone just listening would be offended by the Hydra's sound. In addition, the Hydra does about a zillion things that most analog synths can't come close to. (Poly AT, Ribbon, endless mod options, wavetable/wavescanning, FM, multiple filter models in two different filter slots, programmable macros etc)
 

A few advices here:

- Set “analog feel” in the voice section to at least 20

- Enable warm mode

- Enable random phase

- Roll-off the filter slightly

- (very important) Add filter drive

- Use the 24dB or 24dB Fat filter 

- Add at least 5ms of attack

- Change envelope curves, for instance 25 has been suggested by Glenn Darcey to resemble Minimoog curves

- If you need a triangle wave to be minimoogish, blend it slightly with a sine wave in the wavescan mode

- Use cloud reverb to resemble spring reverb

Did you end up creating some patches that sound close to some of the analog oberheim sounds? 

[YashN]

From the YT videos, my impression of the Hydrasynth was that the bass and mid-bass were lacking.

 

Some people are more sensitive to 'digititis' than others, which could explain why opinions and experiences differ.

 

Is there a YT video where the 'warm' aspect can be heard?

 

Digital, when well implemented - here both in the algorithms themselves and in the overall hardware implementation - can sound warm: a K2000 can do that.

 

When the implementation is lacking, say if the Digital section is polluting the Analogue outputs somehow, then the sound can sound thinner and even irritating to some.

 

Clean Power is very important for good sound. Unfortunately, some manufacturers do not necessarily take this as seriously as they should nowadays.

 

[Radagast]

On 4/17/2022 at 6:00 PM, miden said:

After reading some glowing opinions here in other threads I began to investigate this as a replacement for the Blofeld.

 

A comment I seem to read often, is that the ASM is too "digital" or whatever that means..."cuts like a knife" I was told, straight through your head....I must admit that some of the demos I have heard online seem to refute this and it sounds ok to me via cans or monitors…

Every time I read something like this, I immediately ignore anything these analog-philes say.  They’re biased idiots who are stuck in the past and only want to make paintings with one color.  Let’s go back to horse and buggy days while we’re at it. Analog synths can sound harsh too.

[Tusker]

20 minutes ago, Radagast said:

Analog synths can sound harsh too.

 

Ha ha. For sure. I love analog synths but the mythic past can never be attained. And yet it's understandable why we try...

 

I remember reading a Contemporary Keyboard article in the 1970s where the writer spent a lot of time saying that the analog monosynths had a static sound, so to "compete" with violins, guitars and horns you had to do all these things to the sound. (lfo wobbles, phasers, tremolos, you name it) And btw, if we only we had velocity sensitivity. Then we could show them!

 

Then velocity sensitivity came in. Yes! That should do it. But no it didn't make you sound as good as Jan Hammer on a simple Minimoog.   

 

It's great to chase sound. Just make sure you are not chasing your tail. Mostly, just get to know your gear really really well. That's what Jan Hammer (and the other greats) did.

[YashN]

Digital harshness is something else altogether, it is:

- unpleasant

- grating

- fatiguing

- messes up timbre

 

The origins can be varied. One origin can be at the level of algorithm implementation but there has been a lot of research to make things smoother, anti-aliasing algorithms, better models, etc...

 

The other is when you package digital with analogue in the same item. Now that requires particular care: Power, separation, isolation, etc...

 

When analogue distorts, it is less an issue but there are a bunch of different issues in analogue too like background hiss and noise. Digital Aliasing isn't one of them for the analogue signal path or analogue control voltages. There is the possibility of zipper noise and similar issues depending on implementation.

 

Clean up your power and your gear should benefit.

[Tusker]

On 4/18/2022 at 8:00 PM, RABid said:

It is all about perspective and need. If you want to emulate a Prophet 5, MemoryMoog, Jupiter 8 or Oberheim be prepared for a lot of work and concessions. The Jupiter X or Xm does it better, but for a lot more money. Other options are a Virus or one of the Korgs.  If you don't care about sounding like the analogs form the early 80's and you like the sounds it makes, it is a great deal. I'm still thinking about getting one to go with my Jupiter Xm and Wavestate. Lately I have been spending way too much on my modular system to buy another keyboard. I'm also holding off and hoping they will release version 2 with faster processing and better filters. I like what they have done and it is an amazing first instrument. Cannot wait to see what the second release is like. I remember when Native Instruments finally got a good filter for Reaktor. It made a huge difference. I think the same thing could happen with Hydrasynth.

 

Yes, I agree it's about perspective. A number of true analogs have a strong fundamental frequency to the oscillator and that can help the synth speak more clearly on a noisy stage. Listening, to this the filters seem to have character. To me the oscillator material sounds light in the bottom frequencies. Are there different waveforms or sub oscillators, etc? The other thing I am not sure of is if there is any pre-filter distortion available. A nice pre-filter distortion (a la Moog mixer) will create those low frequencies.

In this video, the Hydrasynth seems to be a good team player with the analog synths. I don't see the problem.

[RABid]

Well this thread is a blast from the past. I actually bought a Hydrasynth Pro a few months back. I enjoy it. Layering two sounds helps get the sound I am after. Poly-aftertouch pushes it over the edge. It has a very different sound than my Jupiter X and that is a good thing. I now have 4 main digital synths in my setup and they all sit in a different place. The other two are WaveState and MODX+ FM section. 

 

Oh, what is the sound that I am after with the Hydrasynth? Movement without mud. I don’t know a better way to describe it.

[David Emm]

A really good friend sent me a Novation MiniNova for Christmas. (!) In exploring it, I've been amused by how closely related things are. Sampling, resynthesis, additive and wavetable are terms that seem to cross back & forth like birds in a flock. The MiniNova has surprised me with some amazingly fluid basses, rich AC pianos & winning vocal patches. I know the more precise definitions of the methods I named, but in the end, it seems to be more about how finely your resolution is tuned. 

 

If you need a real piano, you go for, say, Ivory or Pianoteq. However, I've heard some wavetable pianos that were so damned close, I had to lean into the decay for a moment to be sure they weren't sampled. When it gets that good, the lines blur a lot. I get some unexpected bells from the GX-80 and meaty analog-y sounds that push the bass from Chromaphone. "Digital" now means everything BUT actual analog.

 

I'm fairly sure people mostly bought a Hydrasynth for the crisp aspects. For me, that would represent a challenge to tweak the right knobs for nudging things into the other camp. I also puzzle a bit over a single synth's "sound" being debated when I've become neo-modular, layering two or more synths as often as not. So is the Hydrasynth "too" digital? I don't know, does a slap bass have too few strings? 😛