Have we finally reached "Good enough" in ROMplers?

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

Taking those questions in reverse order...

 

Here's a scenario for wanting to change RH/LH independently: You're playing, not from a known set list, but in some kind of "anything can happen" performance... like, you're part of the support band for an open mic night, or you're in more of an improvisational/jam band situation. Since the song list is unknown, you don't have all the possible splits you might want set up in advance. So let's say you start with a simple split, maybe LH bass or some basic pad on the left, and let's say an electric piano on the right. As the song progresses, you realize that it would be nice to call up, say, a transistor organ sound on the right for the next part, and you have no split already set up that has your current LH sound paired with a transistor organ on the right. You ONLY want to change your RH sound. How do you change your RH sound from EP to transistor organ, without silencing your LH sound? I never really found a way to do it, except a partial exception I'll get back to. This is an example of wanting to change the LH/RH sounds independently. I want  to be able to change the RH sound to any other possible Program, without silencing/glitching my LH sound. Similarly, I may want to change my LH sound without silencing/glitching my RH sound. If your board is a Kronos, the best solution is to bring another board, and have your LH and RH each playing on their own boards. But there are other rompler/workstation style boards where you can indeed change the sound under one hand, without interrupting the sound of your other.

 

Sherry mentioned KARMA can help, but as the further discussion demonstrated, you can only select from a set of 16. If that transistor organ were not in your pre-defined set of 16, it sounds like you're still out of luck. And if you're willing to work from a pre-defined set of 16, another solution is to set up your 16 possible LH/RH combinations and put them on the same Set List page, and then you can seamlessly switch among them (or more than 16, by navigating to another page). So there are certainly ways to switch that will work for most people. But if you want to select ANY sound at all to be part of your combination (on the fly), and not be limited to the ones you set up in advance, Kronos is not the board for that. At least as far as I've been able to determine. I was hoping it would work from the Quick Split page, but it doesn't.

 

Okay, to the other question, using the same scenario as above: If you go to the Edit Combi page, and have (for example) your LH sound in timbre 1 and your RH sound in timbre 2, you can actually keep playing your LH sound seamlessly while you change your RH sound to something else... so in theory, you could actually go to the combi page and change the RH sound during the song's performance (that's what I mean about editing the combi in real time)... BUT this only works if your RH sound doesn't have effects on it. Otherwise, again, you'll lose your LH sound when you make the RH sound change. At least that's how I remember it.

 

In addition, for this to work as smoothly as possible, you not only want to be able to easily change the sound on one side of the split without glitching the sound on the other side, but you want to be able to easily independently adjust the volumes and octaves of the sounds on each side as well.

 

In short, the ability to adjust your left and right sounds independently and quickly/easily is nice for single-board situations where you either can't or simply don't want to set up in advance of the gig every possible LH and RH combination you could possibly want to use. Some boards can facilitate this pretty well, but Kronos is not really one of the better choices here.

Yikes.  What keyboard allows that type of change you referenced about the left and right hand?  

 

I've never heard of that request before, but I guess it does make a lot of sense.

[MathOfInsects]

7 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

Here's a scenario for wanting to change RH/LH independently: You're playing, not from a known set list, but in some kind of "anything can happen" performance... like, you're part of the support band for an open mic night, or you're in more of an improvisational/jam band situation. Since the song list is unknown, you don't have all the possible splits you might want set up in advance. So let's say you start with a simple split, maybe LH bass or some basic pad on the left, and let's say an electric piano on the right. As the song progresses, you realize that it would be nice to call up, say, a transistor organ sound on the right for the next part, and you have no split already set up that has your current LH sound paired with a transistor organ on the right. You ONLY want to change your RH sound. How do you change your RH sound from EP to transistor organ, without silencing your LH sound? I never really found a way to do it, except a partial exception I'll get back to. This is an example of wanting to change the LH/RH sounds independently. I want  to be able to change the RH sound to any other possible Program, without silencing/glitching my LH sound. Similarly, I may want to change my LH sound without silencing/glitching my RH sound. If your board is a Kronos, the best solution is to bring another board, and have your LH and RH each playing on their own boards. But there are other rompler/workstation style boards where you can indeed change the sound under one hand, without interrupting the sound of your other.

This couldn't be easier on the FA-0X, to the point where the ease of it is actually a detriment (since it can happen by mistake too easily): Set up a Studio Set with your split point in place, put your bass or pad down low and your EP up high. Wait for Boomer Aged White Guy Number 24 to come up and say he wants to sing 96 Tears, then just cursor to the EP and hit the Organ bank. Scroll to the transistor organ of your choice, and voila: a new patch up high that didn't affect the one you're playing down low, and a room full of wet Depends, all for you.

 

[Mighty Motif Max]

On 4/15/2022 at 12:22 PM, Julius D Majestic Studios said:

First of all, Remove the reverb.  But getting pianos to cut consistently (across several rooms)) is something that doesn't work using presets. You must tweek the sound. 

Yes, of course. I always take reverb down, if not completely off (if I need space vibes, I'll just layer a pad instead in most cases, but occasionally I leave some reverb on for worship tunes). Editing only gets you so far; I like boards that have a 5-band EQ right on the front panel because you can adjust to the room on the spot if needed. That still doesn't fix the issue of some piano tones just not translating well (like the Korg German Grand sample). You can make something sit better with the mix but that's not the same as making it sound like a piano in the room, or like it does when played at home with nearfields or headphones. And I notice this even at solo piano gigs where I'm running my own sound and everything; you just don't get the same sound in a lot of spaces. You can only edit so far before you've reached the limitations of the base samples. Like you'll never get the Yamaha CFIII sample (the old Full Concert Grand sample) to not sound somewhat like that patch while still sounding like a piano.

 

Then again the reverse can be true - trying to mic up a piano so it sounds like it does right there in the room can be difficult as well.

[AnotherScott]

On 4/16/2022 at 12:00 PM, Julius D Majestic Studios said:

Yikes.  What keyboard allows that type of change you referenced about the left and right hand?  

 

IIRC, some currently available  boards I've played that have decent facility for that kind of sound switching I believe include (alphabetically)...

 

Casio PX560/PX360

 

Korg PA1000/700

 

Kurzweil PC4 series

 

Roland Fantom series, and possibly FA based on MoI's post

 

Yamaha MOXF (Also, Montage/MODX though if, for example, you make that RH switch over a moving LH bass line, the bass line might skip a note at the transition)

 

 

That doesn't mean these boards all necessarily do it equally well, but I think they all allow you to keep your left hand sound going, while you call up any other sound for your right hand part, while not having your LH sound get silenced or otherwise glitch. But even among boards that can do that, here are ways they can differ:

 

... Does the RH sound itself seamlessly switch? For example, if you're changing from my example RH electric piano sound to a transistor organ sound, and you do it with sustain pedal down, will the last EP chord continue to ring after you invoke the transistor organ, or will it immediately cut out? (Or will it hold, but possibly with a glitch due to a changing effect?)

 

... I mentioned you may switch to a sound where you'd like to change the octave of the new sound (especially if your split is on a mere 61 key board). This can be a cinch, or not. Variables include, how much (if any) navigation is required to get to the screen/menu where you can change the octave of just your RH sound. Then, can you do it with a simple fast octave-up/octave-down maneuver, or do you have to step/scroll through each of +12 or -12 semitones? If a board can do this kind of adjustment virtually instantaneously, that's obviously best. If it takes a a few extra beats, it still may be viable and would trill  "make the cut" from my perspective. On some boards, it just may not be practical do make this adjustment in song. And again, this is less important on a 7x or 88 since you have enough keys that octave switching of a split wouldn't need to be done as frequently.

 

... If the new RH sound comes in louder or quieter than you want, how easy is it to quickly adjust just the volume of that sound? Similarly, instant control is best, something that takes a couple of beats can be okay, something that takes too long/too many steps may not be viable for this kind of thing. Volume adjustment is probably more important than octave adjustment to be able to do as quickly as possible, and is also equally a factor regardless of whether your board is a 61, 7x, or 88.

 

.. Since you may want to choose from any RH sound whatsoever, how easy is it to locate/navigate to the sound you want to call up under your right hand, wherever it may be? This could also require the ability to navigate through sound categories and sounds without actually invoking sound changes as you go. (This is where the Juno DS fell down for me, which otherwise looked quite strong for this purpose, and it's why I didn't put it in the list. It's still better than a lot of other boards, with easy access to select just one of your two sounds to change, fast octave controls, fast volume controls, but that navigation is a weakness, which I think you can partially workaround by putting copies of a good selection of the sounds you care about on the User section so you can at least find them all in the same place. Which can be a good thing to do anyway, but is probably more essential if category-hopping is awkward.)

 

On 4/16/2022 at 5:58 PM, MathOfInsects said:

This couldn't be easier on the FA-0X, to the point where the ease of it is actually a detriment (since it can happen by mistake too easily): Set up a Studio Set with your split point in place, put your bass or pad down low and your EP up high. Wait for Boomer Aged White Guy Number 24 to come up and say he wants to sing 96 Tears, then just cursor to the EP and hit the Organ bank. Scroll to the transistor organ of your choice, and voila: a new patch up high that didn't affect the one you're playing down low, and a room full of wet Depends, all for you.

 

I did look at this briefly on the FA once, and I think I did not spend enough time to find the approach you describe there. It might make the cut! Variables, based on the above...

 

... when you say "Scroll to the transistor organ of your choice," can you scroll through the list without changing the RH sound to every sound you pass on the way?

 

... if you want to change the volume of the transistor organ sound after you bring it in, is that easy to do quite quickly?

 

... if you then want to raise the octave on the transistor organ sound (without raising the octave of your LH sound), is that easy to do pretty quickly?

 

 

[MathOfInsects]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

I did look at this briefly on the FA once, and I think I did not spend enough time to find the approach you describe there. It might make the cut! Variables, based on the above...

 

... when you say "Scroll to the transistor organ of your choice," can you scroll through the list without changing the RH sound to every sound you pass on the way?

 

... if you want to change the volume of the transistor organ sound after you bring it in, is that easy to do quite quickly?

 

... if you then want to raise the octave on the transistor organ sound (without raising the octave of your LH sound), is that easy to do pretty quickly?

 

 

I'll try to put together a brief demo for you in the morning. 

[AnotherScott]

1 minute ago, MathOfInsects said:

I'll try to put together a brief demo for you in the morning. 

Cool! But be careful. Nine times out of ten, when someone posts that they're going to do something and report back, they're never heard from again. I suspect it's a cue for alien abduction.

 

Back to Julius... You can see there's a good variety of boards that let you change the sound on just part of your keyboard, mid-performance as you're playing, which I find particularly useful if you're trying to gig with one board, since it almost gives a single board the flexibility of two boards, if you really have easy, independent control over the sound you're playing on either side of the split point (which sound, at what octave, at what volume). It's certainly not something everyone needs, but I was actually a bit surprised that, with everything Kronos can do, it is particularly weak in this functionality. But the more you know what you'll need in advance, and the more willing you are to put in the prep time to program in all those combinations in advance, the less it matters.

[MathOfInsects]

I left myself three (3) outs: "Try to," "brief," and "in the morning." I'm too slippery for aliens to grab onto.

[MathOfInsects]

18 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

I did look at this briefly on the FA once, and I think I did not spend enough time to find the approach you describe there. It might make the cut! Variables, based on the above...

 

... when you say "Scroll to the transistor organ of your choice," can you scroll through the list without changing the RH sound to every sound you pass on the way?

 

... if you want to change the volume of the transistor organ sound after you bring it in, is that easy to do quite quickly?

 

... if you then want to raise the octave on the transistor organ sound (without raising the octave of your LH sound), is that easy to do pretty quickly?

 

 

OK, played with this a bit this morning.

NO, you cannot scroll to the sound without hearing every other sound along the way.

 

YES, it is super easy to change the volume of the RH and not the left--it's right next to patch name on the Studio Set. (However, just remember that if you "store" the Studio Set after adjusting the volume, that volume adjustment will be left as what any wheel turn will change the next time you open that Set. VERY annoying quirk of Roland's.)

NO, it is not easy to QUICKLY raise the octave of only one part of that linked Studio Set, but reasonably easy to click down into the patch itself and do it, which I would NOT suggest doing in real time. The FA is not a nimble live-performance board. (All of these are dead-ass simple one-button moves on the NS, of course.)

There are a couple of workarounds with the FA.

One is the obvious one: for LH bass or pad gigs, either bring a second board, or bring "not this" as your first. (Though Roland's acoustic bass sound is really nice--one of their nicer patches.) It's just not the right tool for this job.

But there are a couple of other options that are pretty easy to set up with 10 minutes' prep time. 

You can just set up four or five different studio sets, right next to each other, with each potential instrument set how you'd anticipate needing it. One would be Bass-Piano, one Bass-EP, one Bass-Transistor, etc. Whatever OTHER patches you will need that night can fill out the rest of the Studio Set, and will not be implicated in the split you set up. Then when 96 Tears guy comes up, you would just switch over to that Studio set and blop-blop-blop-blop to your heart's content.

You will still, however, potentially hear as many patch changes as exist between the Studio Set you're on and the Studio Set you want, since ROLAND DOES NOT LET YOU USE THE PADS TO NAVIGATE FROM ONE STUDIO SET TO ANOTHER, presumably since that would be easy and convenient for the working music, and we all know working musicians are broke and therefore of no use to a company that is repackaging 40-year-old sounds over and over and over, not that I have an opinion about this matter.

Anyway, that's a fix you'd do once and leave forever.

Another advance option is quirkier but works: Pull up your Studio Set that has the LH-RH split you usually use. Replace the (let's say) Piano in the RH with "70's E. Org. 1." Then switch back to Piano. 

 

Now, while you're playing Piano, when 96 Tears guy comes up, you can just hit the "Keyboard/Organ" button and it will give you the last thing you played there--i.e., "70's E. Organ 1." If you're ambitious, you can spend 10 minutes before the gig putting all the rando sounds you anticipate needing in that spot, then changing back to piano, and those will continue to be the first sound that is populated when you select those category buttons. (I think this might actually stay true forever as well--that if you have put any other patch there, even without saving that Studio Set, that patch will be the first option when you pick its category. I'm not 100% sure about this.)

A third option is to never use Roland for this situation, and for them to kiss all the asses. They are famously contrived and non-gig friendly, and typing this has generated some ill-will toward the FA that is sitting right next to me, in the way that when you have a dream about someone being a douchebag and then run into that person the next day, you sort of hold it against them.

[ProfD]

18 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

You can just set up four or five different studio sets, right next to each other, with each potential instrument set how you'd anticipate needing it. 

 

ROLAND DOES NOT LET YOU USE THE PADS TO NAVIGATE FROM ONE STUDIO SET TO ANOTHER...

Yep.  There's enough user slots to save quite a few sets. 

 

It's been almost 2 years since I owned a Roland FA-07 but for that type of split I would:

 

Set up a studio set containing a bass sound (part 1) with a lower KB range  and a different KB sound in parts 2-16 with an upper key range. 

 

Then, it's easy to use the pads to do the Part Select thing between parts 2-16 which changes the upper sound.  😎

[MathOfInsects]

Does this mean @AnotherScottwas eaten by aliens?

[ProfD]

4 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

Does this mean @AnotherScottwas eaten by aliens?

I doubt it.  Before the aliens could take a bite out of him, he told them everything about their spaceship, pros and cons and alternative makes and models.  As soon as they finish erasing his memory of time spent with them, they will turn him lose.😁😎

[AnotherScott]

 

Grokm selllak twaneeb, twaneek. Buffle! ;-) Sawaryenek tevlel opsik. Sasa, woo. 

[ProfD]

9 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Grokm selllak twaneeb, twaneek. Buffle! 😉 Sawaryenek tevlel opsik. Sasa, woo. 

Welcome back bro.  I know you're in there somewhere. 😁

 

I'd ask about the trip but considering the AMEP (Alien Memory Erasure Procedure), it's a moot point. 

 

Just like spending time in the South, one picks up a southern drawl, it could take a minute before the alien lisp wears off.   

 

Hopefully, they implanted some cool synth programming and sound design and musical ideas.😁😎

[Delaware Dave]

On 4/11/2022 at 5:17 PM, CowboyNQ said:

I am in furious agreement with you.  I haven’t bought a new keyboard since 2013 and don’t intend to until one of mine breaks.

Kinda in the same boat.  I purchased my PC3 in '11, it was introduced '08.  It gets the job done on its own across the board.  I purchased my Gemini module 5 years ago to supplement and upgrade the sounds using the PC3 as a master controller.  When I purchased the Gemini module the only items lacking were the quality of the acoustic piano and the absence of saxes.  Guido has come along way with that module in 5 years.  The new Yamaha C5 and Steinway D-274 pianos are of excellent quality, he's also improved the EP engines, retuned the D6 Clav, introduced saxes, upgraded the internal leslie sim.  There are really no weaknesses in the module.  That coupled with my PC3's internal sounds covers the gamut and I must say that my rig from a sound perspective is the best all-around sounding rig I've owned since my younger days of hauling hundreds of pounds of analog goodness.  My only wish is for Guido to build a 76 key controller with drawbars/switches with a semi-weighted keybed and the Gemini module built in, essentially a 76 key single manual version of his DMC-122.  But for now midi'ing my Gemini to my PC3 is the next closest thing.

[MathOfInsects]

Alien abductions are one of the few circumstances where you definitely do not want after touch.

[BluMunk]

2 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

Alien abductions are one of the few circumstances where you definitely do not want after touch.

Certainly not poly after touch.

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

On 4/17/2022 at 4:33 PM, Mighty Motif Max said:

Yes, of course. I always take reverb down, if not completely off (if I need space vibes, I'll just layer a pad instead in most cases, but occasionally I leave some reverb on for worship tunes). Editing only gets you so far; I like boards that have a 5-band EQ right on the front panel because you can adjust to the room on the spot if needed. That still doesn't fix the issue of some piano tones just not translating well (like the Korg German Grand sample). You can make something sit better with the mix but that's not the same as making it sound like a piano in the room, or like it does when played at home with nearfields or headphones. And I notice this even at solo piano gigs where I'm running my own sound and everything; you just don't get the same sound in a lot of spaces. You can only edit so far before you've reached the limitations of the base samples. Like you'll never get the Yamaha CFIII sample (the old Full Concert Grand sample) to not sound somewhat like that patch while still sounding like a piano.

 

Then again the reverse can be true - trying to mic up a piano so it sounds like it does right there in the room can be difficult as well.

Just checking. But you know Nautilus and Kronos do have EQ right there in the front panel (part of the set list too)

 

Also... The Kronos has the perspective thing that you can change as far as where you are hearing the piano from... 

[Mighty Motif Max]

I owned a Krome (so no set list, but there was a 3-band EQ + sweep/Q on the Program mode, but I generally did those edits in the menus anyways)...played a few Kronos's but never owned one. Yes, the SGX-2 engine has some nice features; from what I remember a lot of the subtleties get lost live anyways and it just gets muddier (or too bright) with a lot of the adjustments. For me it's the basic German Grand sample I think. It really needs a perfect stereo image to be enjoyed properly. And some samples aren't as picky.