Have we finally reached "Good enough" in ROMplers?

[ElmerJFudd]

lol - all threads lead to ROM.  I mean Rome.  

[ProfD]

1 hour ago, synthizen2 said:

Conclusion of this thread? Geez folks, it looks like we need to ALL stop buying keyboard instruments NOW and stop gigging NOW... until the perfect ROMpler has been created. 😄

Nope.  Just the opposite. 😁

 

As I mentioned in another thread, the tools available are fine.  The rest is left up to the talent and/or creativity of the person using it. 

 

There is nothing in Home Depot that will make one a better carpenter. 

 

Same goes for the music store. 

 

The best ROMpler on the planet will not make one a better sound designer or musician. 😎

[Stokely]

Going by the sentiment from the Roland Fantom/Fantom 0 thread, seems like a more perfect workstation would be a compromise in price plus better build quality/keybed.  It's hard to believe that the Montage/Fantom actually costs anywhere close to 2 grand more than their plastic wall-wart younger siblings.

 

A real VA engine--for those that don't have one--would be welcome in these workstations along with improvements in the organ engines.  I feel like my Forte is pretty good in both areas though I'm looking forward to trying out my Lester K pedal to see if it improves the Leslie     As a side note, when ordering pedals from the states from Thomann (prices are great) be aware that the power supply you get may be a European one....I had to order another power supply from Sweetwater.

[ProfD]

3 minutes ago, Stokely said:

A real VA engine would be welcome in these workstations along with improvements in the organ engines. 

Technically, most workstations do have real VA capabilities.  It's usually buried in menus.😉

 

For a long time, workstations lacked full blown tactile control over synth parameters.  Nowadays, there are assignable knobs and faders allowing for control over basic parameters (filter cutoff, resonance, ADSR, etc.). 

 

Everything is in there.  The instruments need to be approached less from an engineering standpoint and more creatively. 😎

[AnotherScott]

4 minutes ago, ProfD said:

Technically, most workstations do have real VA capabilities.  It's usually buried in menus.😉

 

"Technically, most workstations" is a tough preamble. With Yamaha and Roland kind of abandoning the field, there are fewer to consider! In non-arrangers, Yamaha has only the MOXF6 (which seems to be hanging around indefinitely). Roland has the FA which I read was being discontinued, as pretty much expected. That leaves Korg (Kross, Krome, Nautilus, and as long as it's around, Kronos) and Kurzweil. Add the arrangers that actually include true workstation functionality as well, you can add Yamaha Genos and a number of Korgs to the list (PA700, PA1000, and Pa4X at least... though it seems that last one may be on its way out as well). Of all of those, only the FA, Kronos/Nautilus, and Kurzweils have VA. None of the others do. And of the ones that do, FA and Kronos are probably nearly gone. That will leave Nautilus and the Kurzweils as the only workstations with VA.

 

Looking backward in time, IIRC, Yamaha hasn't had a workstation with VA since the Motif ES (with optional PLG150-AN expansion), Roland's only such offering has been the FA, and before Kronos/Nautilus, Korg only had it in the OASYS and in the M3 with optional EXB Radias expansion.

[ProfD]

15 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

"Technically, most workstations" is a tough preamble....

With this crowd I probably should have added more language because some will take it as VA more literal than figurative. 

 

My point is there's enough sound shaping capability within most workstation KBs to simulate any sound that could be generated with VA. 😎

[kaptainkeys]

The new Fantom 0 has VA synths available as expansions, so that can be added to the list.  One could argue that the Moog style filter that Yamaha added to the MODX/Montage's AWM2 engine in the 2.0 update could pass as a VA synth, but I wouldn't call it that.  If Yamaha were to put the tonewheel organ engine from the YC and a VA engine into the Montage's successor,  reinstated the MOXF's midi zoning functionality, and allowed users to play all 16 parts from the internal keyboard, they could dethrone the Kronos as the ultimate live performance workstation.

[ElmerJFudd]

 

[AnotherScott]

8 minutes ago, ProfD said:

With this crowd I probably should have added more language because some will take it as VA more literal than figurative. 

LOL, I resemble that remark! But hey, you did say "technically" which really opens the door to literally. ;-)

 

8 minutes ago, ProfD said:

My point is there's enough sound shaping capability within most workstation KBs to simulate any sound that could be generated with VA. 😎

Not technically or literally, but close enough. ;-) Though really, the actual VA implementations are capable of certain sonic characters/behaviors that are not truly obtainable with samples, which is why "literal" VA is desirable in the first place. But I know what you mean. More often than not, most people can probably get "close enough," at least for live gigging purposes. It gets back that old argument about what the audience can tell, what's just for your own satisfaction, and whether even just the latter inspires you to create a musically better performance, which can be more apparent to the audience than the often subtle qualities of the sounds themselves.

 

13 minutes ago, GotKeys said:

The new Fantom 0 has VA synths available as expansions, so that can be added to the list.

Except that--technically/literally--Fantom-0 doesn't qualify as a workstation. ;-) Same as MODX/Montage... they lack the multitrack fully editable linear sequencer, which has been the defining feature of workstations, i.e. the ability to create complete multitrack linear compositions inside the box, as you could on a DAW. In essence, a Digital Audio Workstation but maybe without the Audio part. ;-)

[ProfD]

2 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

LOL, I resemble that remark! But hey, you did say "technically" which really opens the door to literally. 😉

 

Not technically or literally, but close enough. 😉 Though really, the actual VA implementations are capable of certain sonic characters/behaviors that are not truly obtainable with samples, which is why "literal" VA is desirable in the first place. But I know what you mean. More often than not, most people can probably get "close enough," 

Technically and literally, it can be argued that Virtual Analog is a facsimile of and/or an attempt to get close enough to to something else called real analog.🤣😎

[JohnH]

On 4/13/2022 at 1:39 PM, Julius D Majestic Studios said:

What do you mean they removed this ability?  I'd be shocked to know that the unit can't access more than one midi channel at a time.  That is all a request like yours would require.  

 

I don't believe this is correct, if I am reading this correctly. You should be able to do this if your controller can transmit from Ch9 on. It's explained here.   Just assign the desired voices in channels 9-16. The second controller can now play them.

 

https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/can-midi-controller-play-montage-lets-set-the-record-straight#reply-21905

[The Real MC]

My first ROMpler was the Kurzweil 1000PX in 1989.  Over time I added the 1000SX string expander, 1000HX horn expander, and 1000GX guitar expander.  The PX covers the "bread-n-butter" sounds while the others have vastly expanded sample libraries at higher sample rates.  Not much redundancy between them and the samples are world class.  By acquiring the 1000 series I only had one learning curve with the PX, then I already knew the others.

 

While they don't have digital FX or filters, those ROMplers have been good enough since 1989.  They aren't perfect but they're damn good.

 

I tried the newer Kurzweil products and have no compelling reason to replace my 1000 units.  Digital FX and filters are nice additions but I already have outboard that covers them.

 

Agree with others on saxophone and violin sounds.  They work well in an ensemble, but for solo work there is no way you can emulate the expression of the real thing on a keyboard controller.

[Lazerlike42]

3 minutes ago, The Real MC said:

Agree with others on saxophone and violin sounds.  They work well in an ensemble, but for solo work there is no way you can emulate the expression of the real thing on a keyboard controller.

 

I'm not so sure. I think with some technology it's getting pretty close: 

 

[ElmerJFudd]

16 minutes ago, The Real MC said:

My first ROMpler was the Kurzweil 1000PX in 1989.  Over time I added the 1000SX string expander, 1000HX horn expander, and 1000GX guitar expander.  The PX covers the "bread-n-butter" sounds while the others have vastly expanded sample libraries at higher sample rates.  Not much redundancy between them and the samples are world class.  By acquiring the 1000 series I only had one learning curve with the PX, then I already knew the others.

 

While they don't have digital FX or filters, those ROMplers have been good enough since 1989.  They aren't perfect but they're damn good.

 

I tried the newer Kurzweil products and have no compelling reason to replace my 1000 units.  Digital FX and filters are nice additions but I already have outboard that covers them.

 

Agree with others on saxophone and violin sounds.  They work well in an ensemble, but for solo work there is no way you can emulate the expression of the real thing on a keyboard controller.

Absolutely. ROMplers were good enough from the start.  Triggering digital recordings is very realistic.  There’s just been a lot of advancement in capturing details and control/playability. 

[AnotherScott]

50 minutes ago, JohnH said:

 

I don't believe this is correct, if I am reading this correctly. You should be able to do this if your controller can transmit from Ch9 on. It's explained here.   Just assign the desired voices in channels 9-16. The second controller can now play them.

What's changed is, if you want your second controller to play the sounds in parts 9, 10, 11, and 12, the controller has to be able to transmit on channels 9, 10, 11, and 12. Whereas in the older Motif, you could put the sounds from parts 9, 10, 11, and 12 all on a single MIDI channel, and then you'd be able to do this with a simple, basic one-zone controller instead of needing a 4-zone controller. Though there are easy enough workarounds for this particular scenario. A MIDI Solutions Event Processor can take the input of your single-zone controller and send the data out over channels 9-16. You could do something similar with an iPad.

 

29 minutes ago, Lazerlike42 said:

 

I'm not so sure. I think with some technology it's getting pretty close:

 

 

Very nice. It's no mystery that the secret to the best horns sounds out of keys has always been to use a breath controller, but I hadn't seen one used for a violin sound before!

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

On 4/14/2022 at 1:16 AM, Mighty Motif Max said:

 

Yeah, so it's hard to explain exactly why it happens, but just try taking the Kronos/Krome/Nautilus German Grand sample (which sounds great on headphones, and when played back), and playing it in a live setting. Even if you play in stereo, it's like the midrange collapses down. Playing in mono is another issue that's been debated endlessly and drastically changes the sound, but I'm sticking to stereo for this discussion. Room resonances might be part of that. It doesn't seem to matter how nice of a PA or if you have a very competent sound guy. Some pianos just don't sound like a piano in the room when you play out. The other part is that, especially with Nord pianos, your perception of the realism of a piano sound is connected to how it responds when you play it...the finger-to-ear connection. That's why I can't stand Nords...the actions destroy the perception because it feels "off" and doesn't respond like I would expect it to when actually playing. But in a recording when you take that out of the equation they sound great. Playing in a live setting might also change how you're physically interacting with the keys a bit (i.e. if you have a live band) and then you aren't as in-touch with the fine details necessarily. Better monitoring can help with this.

 

I just know that I never cease to be amazed at how terrible some sounds can sound live while they sound great in headphones or studio monitors (or even on solo gigs). In the same way, you can have sounds that don't sound great alone but just fit great into a dense band mix - like some of the previous-gen Roland pianos did in country and rock music.

 

Part of me wonders whether, with pianos in particular, if the sound that we like in headphones was recorded more from the player's position, which then sounds off when you're listening from out in the audience. Or vice versa, if it's a close-miced sound that sounds great in recordings but sucks when playing.

First of all, Remove the reverb.  But getting pianos to cut consistently (across several rooms)) is something that doesn't work using presets. You must tweek the sound. 

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

4 hours ago, synthizen2 said:

Conclusion of this thread? Geez folks, it looks like we need to ALL stop buying keyboard instruments NOW and stop gigging NOW... until the perfect ROMpler has been created. 😄

The perfect Rompler is available.  It's the Kronos.  Then the new Fantom.

 

Then the Integra. 

 

This thread actually motivated me to do a video on my YouTube channel about what I consider to the the G.O.A.T. rompler keyboard.  I'm not sure if we are allowed to post links to YouTube (me at least), so y'all go look it up and check it out... Let me know what you think. 

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, Julius D Majestic Studios said:

The perfect Rompler is available.  It's the Kronos.  Then the new Fantom.

But... not for everyone.

 

Kronos is still probably the most versatile board you can get. I like it, I've gigged with it, but ultimately, I gigged with it only rarely because other boards better suited my needs. Kronos was too heavy for me even as a 61 (and harder to grip than it should have been due to rounded back and angled sides), and 61 is too small anyway. There was no 7x non-hammer. The 88 non-hammer LS was again too heavy and was missing aftertouch. The front panel was awkward to navigate, especially in sub-optimal lighting conditions, with the thin black buttons butted up against each other, on the black background. (Better if you got the titanium model.) Touchscreen operation could be finicky, and the interface can be awkward. When playing a split, you mostly can't change your RH sound without cutting off your LH sound. Long boot time. And it's apparently being discontinued.

 

New Fantom... you mean new as opposed to the ones from earlier this century? Or do you mean new as in Fantom-0?

 

 

[GovernorSilver]

Of course in a studio situation, if the budget allows, it's better to hire a sax player to play sax parts.

 

But if I were asked to play a gig and had to cover Greg Ham's sax solo in "Who Can It Be Now?" I have no qualms about using Yamaha's Super Articulation sax in a pinch.  It's an interesting variation on rompler tech - the sound varies in expression depending on whether you're playing with piano legato or not, as well as velocity and other stuff, including an assignable pedal to trigger sax techniques like growl.

 

I know what breath controllers are but, I doubt they're an "in a pinch" solution - extra practice time must be devoted to use them effectively.

 

Yamaha is unlikely to ever stop developing and improving Super Articulation, as arranger keyboards are reportedly best sellers, and they know people buy certain arranger models for the Super Articulation voices.

 

 

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

2 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

But... not for everyone.

 

Kronos is still probably the most versatile board you can get. I like it, I've gigged with it, but ultimately, I gigged with it only rarely because other boards better suited my needs. Kronos was too heavy for me even as a 61 (and harder to grip than it should have been due to rounded back and angled sides), and 61 is too small anyway. There was no 7x non-hammer. The 88 non-hammer LS was again too heavy and was missing aftertouch. The front panel was awkward to navigate, especially in sub-optimal lighting conditions, with the thin black buttons butted up against each other, on the black background. (Better if you got the titanium model.) Touchscreen operation could be finicky, and the interface can be awkward. When playing a split, you mostly can't change your RH sound without cutting off your LH sound. Long boot time. And it's apparently being discontinued.

 

New Fantom... you mean new as opposed to the ones from earlier this century? Or do you mean new as in Fantom-0?

 

 

So now then the nautilus should be perfect then right?  I mean the flagship.  I tend to stray away from the little brother versions that are released along side the flagships….

[MathOfInsects]

We're all different musicians, and we all play different kinds of gigs and have different needs. Our playing styles differ, our preferences differ, our skill levels differ, and our own idiosyncrasies differ. There is no one perfect board because how could there be? There are as many "perfects" as there are players. 

I think mostly we are buying each company's version of a "philosophy of imperfection." Feel vs. sounds vs. flexibility vs. portability vs. interfacing/integration vs. intangibles. We're trying to find the one whose relative weighting of these various elements is mixed in the proportion that gets closest to the master-color we have in mind. 

If you've found one that matches pretty well, then yes, ROMplers have plateaued. If you're still waiting for one or another of those elements to fully develop, then no, they haven't--and might never do so.

[drawback]

5 hours ago, Julius D Majestic Studios said:

The perfect Rompler is available.  It's the Kronos.  Then the new Fantom.

 

Then the Integra. 

 

This thread actually motivated me to do a video on my YouTube channel about what I consider to the the G.O.A.T. rompler keyboard.  I'm not sure if we are allowed to post links to YouTube (me at least), so y'all go look it up and check it out... Let me know what you think. 

I just spent the last hour or so checking out that video and your others pertaining to Kronos. Great discussion and insight. You can just add your main weblink in your profile, but we have a place for shameless plugs too! Hope you stick around KC. 

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, Julius D Majestic Studios said:

So now then the nautilus should be perfect then right?  I mean the flagship.  I tend to stray away from the little brother versions that are released along side the flagships….

 Nautilus has no aftertouch. The 73-key is still 32 lbs, I prefer those little brothers because they are all under 20 lbs (MODX7, Fantom-07, PC4-7). Nautilus is light on real-time controls. (So much for real-time drawbar work, for example.) I assume it still doesn't let you seamlessly independently change your RH and LH sounds in a split. (You can kinda do it, by editing your combi in real time, which would be okay, except it doesn't work if the sound has any effect on it.) I think it's still got the long boot time, right? I haven't seen one in person yet, so I can't comment on some of the other ergonomic stuff. But it's like MoI says, people have different priorities.

[sherry]

16 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 Nautilus has no aftertouch. The 73-key is still 32 lbs, I prefer those little brothers because they are all under 20 lbs (MODX7, Fantom-07, PC4-7). Nautilus is light on real-time controls. (So much for real-time drawbar work, for example.) I assume it still doesn't let you seamlessly independently change your RH and LH sounds in a split. (You can kinda do it, by editing your combi in real time, which would be okay, except it doesn't work if the sound has any effect on it.) I think it's still got the long boot time, right? I haven't seen one in person yet, so I can't comment on some of the other ergonomic stuff. But it's like MoI says, people have different priorities.

Actually you can  "seamlessly independently change your RH and LH sounds in a split" using the Karma Scene buttons.  Sadly, I'm sure Kronos is the last synth we'll see with Karma.

[AnotherScott]

44 minutes ago, sherry said:

Actually you can  "seamlessly independently change your RH and LH sounds in a split" using the Karma Scene buttons.  Sadly, I'm sure Kronos is the last synth we'll see with Karma.

I always forget about Karma... because I've never played with it myself! But it's not in the Nautilus, anyway.

 

I'm curious about the ability to do this on Kronos, though. From what little I know, even with Karma, wouldn't you have to set up some set of possible RH sounds in advance? As opposed to being able to pick any Program, at any time, and make it the RH sound?

[sherry]

Well, yes, you have to set up sounds in advance, but with Karma you have four scenes that can use up to 16 different sounds in any combination.  For example: In one slot in setlist mode I have on scene 1 button, organ with synth on top, hit scene 2 button, I have organ with strings on top, hit scene button 3 and I have piano across entire board, hit scene button 4 and I have bass, brass and synth lead split across the keyboard.  AND -- underneath the scene buttons are another set of buttons, I can use those buttons to layer any combination of sounds assigned to the top scene buttons all without cutoff of sound.  Sounds confusing, but I find I only need one keyboard for most everything.  Oh, I then assign samples to the touchscreen pads.  Ah, one more thing:  I also use the vector joystick to morph between programs/sounds.  There's no way to achieve this using the new Nautilus or any other keyboard that I know of.

[AnotherScott]

Settle in...

 

I mentioned earlier in this thread that better sound had not typically been the draw of a new board, rather "it's usually been more about some combination of greater functionality, better interface/ergonomics, lighter weight. Action/FTEC can also be a factor." Better sounds are usually just a bonus. Or one more thing to help justify spending the money on a board I really want anyway. ;-)

 

I was thinking about this in terms of my recent acquisitions... which also made me realize that I've been on quite a buying spree last couple of years... completely unjustified based on what my gig schedule has looked like since covid!

 

The main appeals of the PC4-7 (over the Artis 7 I already had) were lighter weight, aftertouch, more controls, ribbon, assignable outs, sample memory, better screen/interface.   Some better sounds were, as I said, a bonus. And when I get around to it, I'll be able to sell the Artis 7 to recoup much of the cost. No "upgrade" is ever perfect, though. With the lighter springs I have in it, I still prefer the Artis 7 action, and the 16 x 16 patch select matrix is nice (vs. the PC4s banks of 10 Favorites). Some hybrid of the two patch select mechanisms would be ideal.

 

Getting the SK Pro was a case where sound was a big part of it, but the organ sounds gets off on a technicality, they're not rompler-based. The Hammond does have rompler sounds, and some pretty nice ones, but probably nothing I can't meet or beat elsewhere in my rig. The thing about organ, though, more than probably any other keyboard task, is that it's so much about things other than the sound, i.e. the operational ergonomics, the key feel/response, and these were part of what drew me as well. But whether I needed a better clonewheel sound is debatable. Especially since I so rarely gig with a clonewheel in the first place! The knobby synth was also an appeal, though I subsequently realized I had an SE-02 I'd hardly used, which I could put on one of my other boards anyway.

 

I've added the Fantom-07, and I think it's a keeper. But mostly for the functionalities, not the rompler sounds, which I largely had in other gear anyway, or again, could be pretty much equalled-or-bettered in my other boards. But the flip side of that is that, to the extent that it does actually duplicate some of what I have elsewhere, I think it will also let me replace some of my other gear, more than enough to pay for the Fantom. Sound-wise, there are some things I particularly like, though they are not so much the rompler sounds. Which brings me to this side-topic:

 

I do like some of the modeled behaviors you can get in some boards, which arguably is something that makes them "more than romplers." Roland has that in some of their SuperNATURAL Acoustic tones, Korg has it in DNC sounds that are in their arrangers, Yamaha has it in the Genos. Adding something like this to your rig does get you something different and useful. "Plain" rompler sounds may (or may not) be "good enough" but these sounds can be better in interesting ways. Do I need them? Probably not. And in fact, they have rarely been in any board I've gigged with. But I have appreciated them on occasion. And it is part of the appeal of the Fantom-0, which, for various reasons, I could see gigging with more often than the Korg PA1000 or Integra module, which are my only previous sources of this kind of thing. ETA: And the fact that I may actually replace gear with the Fantom-07 is another kind of counter to the idea of upgrading for sounds... i.e. if I sell the PA1000 and Integra, I will actually be losing some sounds I like a lot, which will not be fully replaced by the sounds in the Fantom-0. It comes down to how much I'd ever really use them, since there's a limit to what I'd bring to a gig, and while it's all nice to have around for this possible project or that, it's not really justifiable just for that.

 

Getting back to my buying spree, I also picked up a Dexibell P3 pretty recently, and I think I actually have more soundfont sounds in it than Dexibell sounds! It's nice that the soundfonts work so seamlessly. There are some nice Dexibell sounds too, but again, I'm not sure there's anything that I can't meet-or-beat elsewhere. What I really wanted was a self-contained sub-30 lb board with really strong speakers.

 

The one rompler board where the rompler sounds themselves most played into the decision was the Yamaha YC73. This purchase was a bit of a tough call for me. It would replace a Privia as my primary hammer action board. It's not entirely sensible. Compared to a Privia, the Yamaha weighs more, has fewer keys, is deeper (stopping me from keeping keys as close as I'd ideally like)... but to the topic at hand, yes, the rompler aspects sound better... and probably enough better to matter to me. I've also got that Dexibell, with some really nice soundfonts, that also beat out the Casio in the sounds that matter most for my piano board. So why the YC73? Good question... and a lot of the answers, again, are not actually about the rompler sounds.

 

...Answer 1: Oddly enough (esp. for a hammer action board), the clonewheel function. Since the SK Pro typically doesn't make the cut as part of my primary gigging rig, the YC easily gives me a better organ than I'd otherwise have... and action-wise, I can drive it from my non-hammer action above. I also like the LED display of its drawbars, and am thinking about whether I might even want to use those drawbars to control a software organ, though really, the YC organ is quite nice, and is not screaming for improvement (even if it lags the SK Pro).

 

...Answer 2: I like having a board in the rig with the kind of immediate interface the YC has, that approach comes in handy sometimes. 

 

...Answer 3: The intangible... playing the board just makes me smile.

 

All that said, I haven't gigged with the YC yet. So we'll see how I feel after I'm carrying it in and out of the venue (it is my heaviest potential gig board at the moment), and after I see how it sounds/feels to me in context of live playing with the band, to see if it justifies its presence as much as I expect it to.

 

But after all that about how sound upgrading is generally a minimal factor in my board purchases, I do like having the variety that comes rom having a selection of boards. As Max said, every board/brand has its strengths... and it's nice to have access to the flavor you want. (Especially for those of us who haven't fully embraced software.) That said, I doubt "better sounds" has ever been the reason I picked a particular board for a gig (especially since, again, every board that is stronger at something is going to be weaker at something else anyway). But I mentioned in the "Another Stand Thread" topic that I'm toying with 3-board rigs... and part of that is to have a better selection of both the functionalities and sounds I like best.

 

I guess I could have posted some variation of this instead in either the "Dig My Rig" thread or the "Your Latest Purchase" thread, but... here we are. :-)

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

 

 

 

14 hours ago, drawback said:

I just spent the last hour or so checking out that video and your others pertaining to Kronos. Great discussion and insight. You can just add your main weblink in your profile, but we have a place for shameless plugs too! Hope you stick around KC. 

I didn't know what was allowed so I wanted to learn my way here and earn respect before I just went and started posting video links.  Shameless plugs said it's for regular contributing members... So I thought I needed some time under my belt first. Lol.  If an admin approves me though, I will post. 

 

I did add some things to my signature but it's not showing up for some reason..

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

14 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 Nautilus has no aftertouch. The 73-key is still 32 lbs, I prefer those little brothers because they are all under 20 lbs (MODX7, Fantom-07, PC4-7). Nautilus is light on real-time controls. (So much for real-time drawbar work, for example.) I assume it still doesn't let you seamlessly independently change your RH and LH sounds in a split. (You can kinda do it, by editing your combi in real time, which would be okay, except it doesn't work if the sound has any effect on it.) I think it's still got the long boot time, right? I haven't seen one in person yet, so I can't comment on some of the other ergonomic stuff. But it's like MoI says, people have different priorities.

What do you mean by editing the combi in real time and what do you mean by change RH & LH sounds independently? 

[AnotherScott]

6 hours ago, Julius D Majestic Studios said:

What do you mean by editing the combi in real time and what do you mean by change RH & LH sounds independently? 

Taking those questions in reverse order...

 

Here's a scenario for wanting to change RH/LH independently: You're playing, not from a known set list, but in some kind of "anything can happen" performance... like, you're part of the support band for an open mic night, or you're in more of an improvisational/jam band situation. Since the song list is unknown, you don't have all the possible splits you might want set up in advance. So let's say you start with a simple split, maybe LH bass or some basic pad on the left, and let's say an electric piano on the right. As the song progresses, you realize that it would be nice to call up, say, a transistor organ sound on the right for the next part, and you have no split already set up that has your current LH sound paired with a transistor organ on the right. You ONLY want to change your RH sound. How do you change your RH sound from EP to transistor organ, without silencing your LH sound? I never really found a way to do it, except a partial exception I'll get back to. This is an example of wanting to change the LH/RH sounds independently. I want  to be able to change the RH sound to any other possible Program, without silencing/glitching my LH sound. Similarly, I may want to change my LH sound without silencing/glitching my RH sound. If your board is a Kronos, the best solution is to bring another board, and have your LH and RH each playing on their own boards. But there are other rompler/workstation style boards where you can indeed change the sound under one hand, without interrupting the sound of your other.

 

Sherry mentioned KARMA can help, but as the further discussion demonstrated, you can only select from a set of 16. If that transistor organ were not in your pre-defined set of 16, it sounds like you're still out of luck. And if you're willing to work from a pre-defined set of 16, another solution is to set up your 16 possible LH/RH combinations and put them on the same Set List page, and then you can seamlessly switch among them (or more than 16, by navigating to another page). So there are certainly ways to switch that will work for most people. But if you want to select ANY sound at all to be part of your combination (on the fly), and not be limited to the ones you set up in advance, Kronos is not the board for that. At least as far as I've been able to determine. I was hoping it would work from the Quick Split page, but it doesn't.

 

Okay, to the other question, using the same scenario as above: If you go to the Edit Combi page, and have (for example) your LH sound in timbre 1 and your RH sound in timbre 2, you can actually keep playing your LH sound seamlessly while you change your RH sound to something else... so in theory, you could actually go to the combi page and change the RH sound during the song's performance (that's what I mean about editing the combi in real time)... BUT this only works if your RH sound doesn't have effects on it. Otherwise, again, you'll lose your LH sound when you make the RH sound change. At least that's how I remember it. (It would be better if you could at least easily tell which sounds had effects on them and which didn't.)

 

In addition, for this to work as smoothly as possible, you not only want to be able to easily change the sound on one side of the split without glitching the sound on the other side, but you want to be able to easily independently adjust the volumes and octaves of the sounds on each side as well.

 

In short, the ability to adjust your left and right sounds independently and quickly/easily is nice for single-board situations where you either can't or simply don't want to set up in advance of the gig every possible LH and RH combination you could possibly want to use. Some boards can facilitate this pretty well, but Kronos is not really one of the better choices here.