Do Animals Have a Better Heart than Humans?

[Anderton]

Found this on Quora...kinda makes you think.

 

The nurse who took this picture wrote: It‘s been 23 days since this patient came to this hospital and in these 23 days nobody from his family came to visit him. But there is a pigeon which comes every two days to sit next to his bed. The pigeon stays for a while and then flies away. „We then found out that this patient sits on a bench in a park near the hospital every day and feeds the pigeons there. This once again showed us that animals have a better heart than humans.

 

[dboomer]

Maybe out of place for this forum … but I have always wondered if animals have a soul (whatever that is)?  Or even some fraction of a human soul?  Just guessing, that would be a pretty difficult thing to measure 😉

[Anderton]

First of all, most things aren't out of place in this forum. When musicians talk about something other than music, they bring a different slant to the discussion.

 

I do think animals have consciousness and intelligence, that's for sure. Years ago I had a cat named Sophie, and one day, I realized she was trying to teach me how to understand her "language." She had different meows, but I didn't realize they were associated with specific actions. One day, she did a certain meow, and walked over to her water bowl. Then she came back to me, gave the same meow, and walked back to the water bowl. Came back AGAIN, same meow, and that's when I realized the water bowl was empty. 

 

After that I became aware of what was going on. She would try to teach me "words" by repeating them and doing an action. Eventually I was able to differentiate "words" for "I want to go out," "I want chicken" (which was different from "I want food"), the water one, "I want to come too" when I headed for the door, and a couple others. She had more words than that, but they were too nuanced for me to differentiate. 

 

When she was trying to teach me stuff, after she'd tried for the third or fourth time to do a certain meow and associated it with an action, she'd give me this look like "jeez, you're such a moron. I said 'meeeow,' NOT 'meooowww.'" Then she'd give me that "humans - can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em" look. Overall, I think she figured humans were okay, they just weren't too bright.

 

 

[ToddP]

Am I the only one thinking "what kind of hospital lets wild animals into the building?" That can't be very sterile. 

[Dave Bryce]

7 hours ago, dboomer said:

I have always wondered if animals have a soul (whatever that is)?  Or even some fraction of a human soul?  

 I’m inclined to think so.  I have very little doubt that my dogs do…

 

dB

[spokenward]

1 hour ago, ToddP said:

Am I the only one thinking "what kind of hospital lets wild animals into the building?" That can't be very sterile. 

 

Doesn't look like any hospital in North America. I found it odd too.

 

I did a Google reverse image search. One of the propagators attributes it to a hospital in Iran. 

 

(stage direction: hospital functionary stops at the door, nods head slightly forward, pauses, does not enter the room. footsteps continue softly down the hall.) 

[Anderton]

It doesn't seem that odd animals would care. When I brought a second, younger rescue cat (Jeanette) into my house, Sophie was incredibly upset. Attacked her mercilessly, wouldn't give her the time of day, chased her around the house, clawed at her. 

 

Then one day Sophie got really sick with an infection and couldn't do anything except lie down. Every day, Jeannette went to a pillow that was close to Sophie, and sat there just looking at Sophie. When Sophie went to sleep, Jeannette would get up and go about her day. Amazingly, she didn't take the opportunity to extract vengeance on Sophie. But when Sophie got better a few days later, she never attacked Jeannette again, or was even slightly mean. The only explanation i can think of is Jeannette had genuine empathy for Sophie, who felt it. They had both been rescue cats with tough lives, so maybe an act of kindness had some kind of impact. But that begs the question of whether it was a conscious act of kindness, coincidence, instinct...who knows?

[KuruPrionz]

Like humans, animals vary. There are amazing stories of animal intelligence and horrendous stories of animal stupidity, just like humans.

My friend Katie has a pit bull, Bentley, who radiates intelligence and is the best behaved dog I've ever seen anywhere. 

On the other hand, a friend had a Persian cat and one time we put cold cuts on it's back. It wandered around the room for a while until another cat went over and got the cold cuts. It smelled something but even after we placed the food on it's physical manifestation, it was clueless. Pretty rare, most cats are remarkably bright in my experience. I once had a cat that could curl it's paws on the edges of cupboards and drawers and pull them open. We used to show Morton off to visitors, put a little tread inside a drawer or cupboard and he'd get it pretty quickly. 

 

As to the heart, some critters are loyal for life and others are not so much. Just like us tail-less apes.

[David Emm]

One thing is certain: they remember who treats them well. There's no certainty that it will be repaid, but I've found that it tends to go that way. I've had that happen far more than not.

 

In "Black Panther," there is a great scene where an armored rhinoceros is charging right for Danai Gurira's 'General Okoye.' When he gets close enough to really see her, he skids to a stop and licks her face. The whole audience let out a barking laugh at once, heh. Its a great moment that harkens back to an earlier one, where her 'love' Daniel Kaluuya is seen feeding a piece of fruit to one of the rhinos. That's how it works.

 

I saw a video on 3 dachsunds who had been raised with a MALE lion since they were all babies, on an animal preserve in Australia. They're all over this adult lion, who could eat them in a gulp and its as clear as it can be that they're a big pack.

 

I saw another about a tiger whose zoo handlers had been taunting and abusing her. As it developed, she got loose one day and went speeding through the zoo to the two bullies and tore them several new ones, literally. She went through crowds and aimed at her abusers, no one else. Hm. That's how that works, too.

 

So do they have a better heart? I dunno, but they sure have a solid sense of what's EQUITABLE. 

[Doerfler]

20 hours ago, spokenward said:

 

Doesn't look like any hospital in North America. I found it odd too.

 

 

Doubt if you could find a hospital in North America where the windows can be opened

[spokenward]

35 minutes ago, Doerfler said:

Doubt if you could find a hospital in North America where the windows can be opened

Yep. Or one where people could stay 23 days.

 

Which actually does return to the original premise of the thread. People who study communal living animals track behaviors. Some of those behaviors fall in the category of predatory threat assessment and the ways that the community shares understanding of the threat. We also organize systems based on threat but we assess our community differently. We don't always identify as a community or recognize a shared threat.

[Anderton]

14 minutes ago, spokenward said:

Which actually does return to the original premise of the thread. People who study communal living animals track behaviors. Some of those behaviors fall in the category of predatory threat assessment and the ways that the community shares understanding of the threat. We also organize systems based on threat but we assess our community differently. We don't always identify as a community or recognize a shared threat.

 

Exactly. The social structure of animals is more primitive than humans, but in general, more defined. Like the way whales cooperate on bubble netting to make sure everyone gets fed.

 

But I always figured humpback whales had to be smarter than people. They spend summers in Alaska, winters in Hawaii, and sing songs as they travel back and forth. Interestingly, some research indicates that the whale songs are not random, but more like playlists.

[Old No7]

22 hours ago, spokenward said:

I did a Google reverse image search. One of the propagators attributes it to a hospital in Iran. 

 

That's what you get when you order a "Chicken Sandwich -- Very Rare, No Bread" from the hospital cafeteria..........

 

Old No7

[Old No7]

On 3/1/2022 at 11:30 AM, Anderton said:

I do think animals have consciousness and intelligence, that's for sure.

 

Me too.  We once figured out that our yellow lab (RIP) knew over 40 words; it was pretty remarkable what words, comments or commands she would respond to -- most of the time, that is.  And I've read/heard that some herding dogs can learn over 100 or more words.

 

Dogs also learn faces too -- or is it our scent?  (Gee, I did shower today...)

 

Old No7

[KenElevenShadows]

Souls, what kind of souls, I dunno.

 

I'll just say that some humans can be extremely compassionate. Others, not so much.

 

And I believe we continually underestimate animals in emotion.

 

A horse with a "kind eye", Iceland.

[KuruPrionz]

Long ago, we had a cat named Tigger who threw 2 litters and then we spayed her. 

One summer for 3 nights in a row she brought home 3 baby jack rabbits, must have found a nest in the field across the street. 

We were playing in the backyard and Tigger brought her prize over near to us and proceeded to torture it to death with the ritual cat Death Dance. 

 

It was brutal, savage and fascinating. We just watched, astonished at the cat's brutality. That's what they do.

Nipping at the heels comes from dog pack behavior, they will run an animal into exhaustion and keep injuring it until they can take it down and eat it. At some point while it is being eaten it dies. So lovely!!!! 😇

 

Yes, I get that they are carnivores and I am hardly a vegan so no less guilty. But I never said I had a good heart and I am not sure it enters into the reality of carnivorous pets. Cats like to kill and they do, no two ways about it. Dogs will but they are typically pack animals, gang up on somebody and turn them into dinner. 

[JohnG11]

Er .. surely the pigeon is there just to check whether there's any food, isn't it?

"Hey man, you haven't fed us anything in days, What Gives?"

 

Aren't theoretical motives of compassion in a bird brain just a little far fetched?

 

Just my P.O.V.

[pinkfloydcramer]

I think it's pretty obvious that animals have better hearts than humans. For quite some time, pig's heart valves (and now even entire modified pig hearts) have been transplanted into humans. You never hear of the other way around.

 

What makes this even more amazing, is that bacon is bad for your heart- and yet pig hearts, which have been surrounded by bacon their entire lives, are still more durable than those of humans.

[JohnG11]

3 hours ago, pinkfloydcramer said:

What makes this even more amazing, is that bacon is bad for your heart- and yet pig hearts, which have been surrounded by bacon their entire lives, are still more durable than those of humans.

 

Did someone mention bekan?

 

The reason why bacon is good for a pig's heart is because it's been cured. (Sorry 😁)

[pinkfloydcramer]

I have a big tabby tomcat, he's a pretty good cat if you're a human, also gets along great with my shih tzu Jax who is kind of the sheriff of the house. But he's an absolute bastard if you happen to be another cat. He lives for bullying and meanness, drives every other cat away. If there's such a thing as cat Hell he's going. A little aggravated with him at the moment because cat #2 has been missing ever since I got back from a trip las week.  

  

[zeronyne]

There is a lot to unpack here, and it’s a huge subject in both science and philosophy. I’ll chime in here because this has been something I’ve mulled over my whole life.

 

I’ve always been fascinated by animals. We’ve owned almost every exotic and domestic animal you can legally own except for snakes and large birds. I even raised a lobster. And I now have two dogs that are attached to me like glue (especially since I work from home). They are the type that people would call Fur Babies (I do NOT) in terms of temperament and dependence.

 

I think compassion and maybe love make sense in evolutionary terms, and we see degrees of it, at least the actions that SEEM compassionate to us, in most animals with a central nervous system. We also see selective suppression of compassion among higher-order primates. If you’ve ever seen a chimp eating a small monkey while it’s alive, you’ll understand what I mean. 
 

As much as I truly love my dogs and as much as they viscerally respond when I am sad, angry, or excited, I don’t think they experience compassion in the same way humans do. Or maybe we are conflating the action with something that is coincidentally similar. We see many examples of human interest stories where a dog is raising a baby cheetah or something. Is that compassion or a slight glitch in the wiring that causes the mothering instinct to kick in? We know baby animals have visual characteristics that trigger certain emotions in adult animals, and I’m wondering if cross-species compassion is just that biological function operating at a higher or tangential level.

 

I WANT my dogs to love me in a very human way. I want them to be ashamed when they do something wrong because it’s wrong, and I want them to protect me because they love me. But those anthropomorphized behaviors have biological foundations that have nothing to do with empathy or morality. As much as I want animals to have shards of human values, I think what we are seeing, even in the human interest stories, are very logical biological imperatives viewed through our human centric lens. And I can’t get past that. Occam’s Razor, etc.

 

I still put funny hats on them, though.