Rig too big for playa...help....

[Dave Bryce]

Okay, so my problem starts with the fact that I'm mainly a keyboard player.  Been playing acoustic guitar for a long time, but never really delved into electric until COVID hit.  

 

When I went in, I went in big, though.  Bought a bunch of guitars, of course - I'm up to eight.  That'd be a different thread though, of course.   😁

 

Amplification-wise, I started with a Line 6 POD XT into the PA for processing (using one of their big pedal boards to control it).  What I found the most useful about that setup was that I could take the presets apart to learn a bit about how the different sounds were made.  Then, I got a Spider III amp and a pedal board for that and learned some about the way the knobs were set on amps....but all that did was open the door for the real thing.

 

Another factor here is that I don't need to learn how effects/processing work - I have a decent amount of experience in that area.  Besides being a keyboard geek, mixing is my other main passion.  I've worked for years with all sorts of manufacturers including Alesis, Empirical Labs, Summit and more...even the Two Notes guys.  This has actually worked against me a bit...because I wasn't happy starting out with a small rig. 😏 

 

I designed a monster that - while I can run and balance it pretty well - far exceeds my limited skills as a player.   😬

 

Gets worse: I have a Hammond A100 with a 1/4" out and a Leslie 145, and I've interfaced those with some of the pedals and the output routing matrix I built.

 

The purpose of this thread is because I don't know enough about approaching pedal board routing from the POV of an electric guitar player, and could really use a few experienced perspectives.  My design reflects more of my keyboard player/mixer side, and I would be most appreciative if y'all could take a look at the rig and let me know how you think I could do it better.  

 

The lower level of the pedal board is just for the guitars.

Shure wireless input into the TC (buffered) tuner ->

Xotic SP compressor 🥰 (fed with 18v power) ->

MXR Phaser 🥰

DanElectro Chorus (has a Mix knob!) ->

Dunlop Cry Baby wah on the right side ->

Xotic Robotalk double t-wah 😎 ->

Tube Screamer 🥰 ->

D'Armond volume

 

This feeds the Donner A/B switcher on the top level, which switches between the guitar pedals and the Hammond's input.  After that:

Way Huge Swollen Pickle fuzz/distortion (killer on the Hammond!!!) ->

Atlantic Nu•x Delay (has tape, BB and digital select) and reverb.  Cool pedal - order of the two effects can be flipped. ->

Morley ABC Pro switcher combiner. ->

     A = Iridium, which feeds the Line 6 L2t PA (ignore the QSC - that's for the keyboard rig)

     B = Leslie Preamp pedal on the far right hand side

     C = another (not shown) amp switcher/combiner (I have Princeton and an AC15 (w/Alnico Blue)

 

Strymon Zuma underneath for power.

 

The rig actually works and sounds unreal.  The Leslie acts like a big ol' sub in the center behind the Vox that has a bit of a Univibe thing going on when it's spinning slow.  Makes me wish I could play better...but I play well enough to send literally hours every day trying to learn to improve.

 

Here's the challenge: I have an H9 Max that I want to interdfae with the pedal board.  Obviously, that would eliminate the need for some of the pedals...but which ones?  And where is the best place in the chain to put the H9 Max?  DAMN, that thing is a beast - especially with an expression pedal and an iPad connected to it.  I think the Robotalk is excessive, even though it is a lot of fun.

 

Talk to a brother...

 

dB

 

 

[Winston Psmith]

@Dave Bryce - Send me a PM, or an email (WinstonPsmithProject@gmail.com), and let's talk. Bear in mind that Craig Anderton is the go-to guy for Guitar Effects.

 

Some simple thoughts - General rule of thumb for the order of Guitar FX is Dynamics Effects-Modulation Effects-Time-based Effects. I've heard good results with a Phaser on either side of a Dirt box or overdriven Amp, but I don't generally see Chorus into Distortion? If it's giving you the sound you want, all good.

 

One personal preference is to place any effect I might regard as an Instrument Voice unto itself (Ring Mods, Pitch Shifters, Synth Pedals) at or near the front of my signal chain.

 

When I mix a MFX unit with pedals, I'm either trying to route the pedals through a S/R Loop on the MFX, which lets me place them where I want them in the signal chain, or else I tend to use the MFX for Modulation and Delay/Reverb effects, to keep the signal routing simple.

 

I've looked at the H9 series, but haven't yet tried one out, so my first question regarding it would be, can it offer more than one Effect at a time? If you can set up a virtual signal chain within the H9, it would probably serve to replace the Chorus, Phaser, and TS9, although once again, if it only offered one effect at a time, placement is going to be an issue. If you expect to use it primarily for Modulation and Delay effects, you can run the rest of the Guitar Pedals into it, and have it last, or next to last in the signal chain. OTOH, if you want to use it as a Filter effect for one tune, a Pitch Shifter for another, an Infinite Reverb for yet another, you may need to consider a router/switching unit, something more like the Boss ES-5. I know, more stuff underfoot and more switching.

 

Perversely, the Robotalk may be the hardest to emulate with a MFX. I haven't been overwhelmed by the Filter effects in most MFX.

 

I'm sure you'll get some other responses soon. Have fun with it!

[Caevan O’Shite]

Dave Bryce- My first question for you is, why do you want to replace some of your existing pedals with the H9 Max?

Is it simply to downsize?

Do you find that it does some of those sounds more satisfactorily for you?

Is it for some of the things that the H9 does, that your existing rig doesn't?

Is it to have more programmable preset control? (I see that the H9 has a Control app for iOS or Android, MAC or PC... )

Like Winston Psmith says above, I'd probably place it late or even last in the chain. Left and Right Outs from your Iridium (nice choice, I have one, too!) into the Left and Right Inputs of the H9 would be a plenty nice way to go. Or, perhaps before the Morley ABC Pro switcher/combiner, if you'd like the H9 to be applied to the Iridium, Leslie Preamp, and the Princeton and AC15-although then you'd lose possible stereo I/O use of the H9...

IF the Spider III had an effects-loop, I'd consider simply placing the H9 there!

Personally, if room is needed to place the H9 on your board, I'd simply ditch the Danelectro FAB Chorus, and just put the tuner on the floor, plugging the guitar into it and keeping a short cord from the input of the Xotic SP Compressor, and a power-supply cable from the Zuma) dangling from the bottom-left to connect to the tuner- almost as quick and easy as just plugging in your guitar. And then re-arrange the pedals to make room for the H9.


(Personally, I find chorus to be the effect that I want or need the least often, even among the few chorus stomps that I like at all- disliking most chorus pedals. And personally, rather than ditching pedals that I chose because I really dug what they do, I'd just have a slightly bigger pedalboard and add the H9.)

[Dave Bryce]

Excellent feedback and questions.  Thanks so much for taking the time!

 

First of all - primary purposes of the rig are fun, learning and recording.  It does not need to move.  Obviously, that’s key…and I don’t need to switch between sounds quickly if I don’t want to, so more good news.

 

Brother Winston - thanks for the tips on the pedal order. Will move the dirt boxes further up the chain.  Might swap out the TS9 for an Alairex HALO I have - two channels, way more control. 

 

5 hours ago, Winston Psmith said:

General rule of thumb for the order of Guitar FX is Dynamics Effects-Modulation Effects-Time-based Effects.

 

What about filters/wahs?  Makes sense to me to put those between mod and time-based stuff…?  And as far as distortion, that before fuzz?  Do those typically go post-dynamics, but before the mod fx and filter stuff?

 

I’m looking to lose some of the pedals because their sound and control are not what I’m looking for.  Chorus-wise, for example, the H9 is deeeefinitely better than the DanElectro.  I have a TC Chorus/Flanger that’s one of my standards…but it’s in use elsewhere.

 

Why I want to use the H9 - it has excellent quality sounds, can do multiple effects at once, and has hella deep control.  Kinda the next level of guitar effects learning for me.  The programmable preset control is attractive…but more for the ability to recall and dissect all the ones in there than for performance purposes ( at this point, anyway).

 

A whole lot of my playing is textural at this point, and that thing is awesome for that sort of thing.  In that respect, I think brother Caeven is correct that it needs to be at the end, after the Iridium.  No reason to feed the Leslie or amps with that…and the stereo is a plus.

 

Good idea taking the tuner off the board, too….and if I’m gonna go that route, maybe I’ll pull in that big-ass Moogerfooger low pass filter I have instead of the Robotalk.  Too big for the board…but floor space no prob. 

 

dB

[KuruPrionz]

I've had big pedal boards, no pedal boards, just a Flashback X4 delay with one delay (and tap tempo) and two different choruses plus a footswitch for a channel switching amp and now I like amps that have multiple effects built in - Peavey Vypyr VIP 1 with a Scorpion 10" and a Boss Katana 50 Mk II. Those are both cool amps and small and light enough (and loud enough!!!) to be convenient giggers. 

 

So the next step is to get into more parallel processing (I hesitate to call it stereo). I did a experiment on my DAW, recorded a dry guitar part and made 6 more copies of it. 

I put a different effect on each one and then started using automated volume and pan to cross blend stuff. That's the way to go!!!!

 

I will be messing about with putting the Katana with knobs on top above the Vypyr with knobs on the front and playing them through a Rivera A/B box. I've done a bit of that, it does create a sense of a larger space and I think the closer the speakers are together the larger it sounds. Counter intuitive, I know. 

 

On the other hand, a friend and fellow guitarist came up to me after a set at the local swillery and asked how I got so many tones with just a channel switching amp. I handed him my pick, 2mm Gator. He just stared at me and gave my pick back. He uses a medium and plays hard all the time. His tone never changes. With a super heavy pick you can play softly or not and get a world of tones. Both pickups on and move from bridge to neck for your picking positions. 

 

I'd work on that too, it pays off. Maybe just your favorite guitar plugged straight into your Princeton, that will tell you no lies. Then take a break and go big with all the effects. 

[Winston Psmith]

14 hours ago, Dave Bryce said:

 

What about filters/wahs?  Makes sense to me to put those between mod and time-based stuff…?  And as far as distortion, that before fuzz?  Do those typically go post-dynamics, but before the mod fx and filter stuff?

 

dB

Filters and Wahs behave somewhat differently, mostly because many Filter effects are driven by your signal dynamics, while Wah pedals aren't dependent on dynamics. Dynamic Filter effects will want to come before anything that clips or compresses your signal dynamics. For that reason, Envelope Filter effects like your Moogerfooger tend to respond best at or near the front of your signal chain, but Resonant Filter pedals that feature LFO's or S&H Waveforms will sit nicely with the rest of your Modulation effects.

 

Placement of your Wah pedal is largely a matter of preference. Some players like sending a nice toothy Fuzz into a Wah pedal, others prefer to run Wah, then Fuzz or Distortion, so the Wah pedal determines the frequency range hitting your Dirt box. There's no really wrong order in this case, it's a matter of getting the sound that you want.

 

IME, having a Boost/Buffer pedal at the front of my signal chain vastly improved the responsiveness of any Envelope Filter effects, even without cranking the Boost.

 

FWIW, Boost Pedals, Compressors and Dirt boxes are all Dynamics Effects, in that they greatly influence signal dynamics. As to Distortion before Fuzz, I approach my Dirt boxes as a Gain Stack, running from a very Low-Gain OD, to a Mid-Gain OD, to a High-Gain Distortion, to a Fuzz. (Walrus Messner - Walrus Warhorn - Wampler Sovereign - Mojo Hand Iron Bell) I don't have all of them on at once, but I like having all the different levels of Distortion available. The rest of my pedal array is just insane, and shouldn't be viewed as an example of anything but pure excess.

[Dave Bryce]

Makes total sense.  REALLY helpful - -especially the wah vs. envelope filter dynamics disctinction.  I was definitely not thinking of them that way...

 

One of the reasons I chose the TC tuner was the buffer. Glad to hear that was a good decision.  I really noticed the difference giving the Xotic compressor 18v made as well.  I love learning little details like that.

 

Thank you!  👊

 

dB

[Larryz]

Wish I could help Dave, but I'm sans pedals these days and my memories fading.  +1 As Kuru indicated, just plug your favorite guitar into that little Princeton and have fun as all I really need is a little verb.  I would add a snap on tuner LoL!  The main thing is to have fun and a lot of these guys can really help with the line-up ??'s.  😎👍

[desertbluesman]

I agree with Larryz above I use a tube distortion pedal and a reverb pedal into my 15 watt Egnater Tweaker head into a 1-12" Cannabis Rex speaker. That setup is in my climate controlled shed (Which I use when the wifey is home)

 

In the house I use a Fender Super Champ X2 with an Eminence Lil Buddy 10" hemp cone speaker. The SCX2 has all the things in it like, reverb which I use, and a second overdrive channel for distortion leads.

 

So I have 2 sounds I use; clean with reverb, and overdrive with reverb.

[Dave Bryce]

I love going direct.  I run dry into the amp with only the amp’s reverb a bunch.   Makes me hyper aware that I need to work on my chops before any of this other stuff I’m messing with.  😳😁
 

i have a Supro Blues King (8”) in the studio as well.  I pretty much only plug straight into that one.  

 

Updated pedal board below. Among other things, the H9 is now at the end of the chain after the Iridium.  Much better. 👍🏻

 

dB

 

 

[Caevan O’Shite]

On 2/1/2022 at 7:57 PM, Dave Bryce said:

First of all - primary purposes of the rig are fun, learning and recording.  It does not need to move.  Obviously, that’s key…and I don’t need to switch between sounds quickly if I don’t want to, so more good news.

That simplifies requirements! Particularly concerning putting a tuner or another pedal on the floor, before or after the board.
 

On 2/1/2022 at 7:57 PM, Dave Bryce said:

I have a TC Chorus/Flanger that’s one of my standards…but it’s in use elsewhere.

I have one of those, too! Very, very few other chorus pedals make the grade for me after that one.
 

[p90jr]

Dave, a lot of people use that Supro (it has a line out, right?) as a distortion/fuzz pedal itself, into other amps... just to give you something more to confuse the process here...

[Dave Bryce]

On 2/23/2022 at 10:15 AM, p90jr said:

Dave, a lot of people use that Supro (it has a line out, right?) as a distortion/fuzz pedal itself, into other amps... just to give you something more to confuse the process here...

 

Yup, it has the line out.  I love the way that little Supro sounds - especially when you push it - and have thought about using that to track, but hadn't considered using it in line.  

 

Totally gotta try that.  Thank you, brother! 👊

 

dB

 

 

[Winston Psmith]

Not that you really need anything else underfoot, but . . .

 

At some point, you might want to look at one of the Pedal Switching Systems to help manage your rig. They give you lots of flexibility, in terms of switching entire chains of effects On and Off, and some of them offer MIDI PC & CC, as well. "One-Switch-To-Rule-Them-All", or something like it . . .

 

They're not cheap, so it's a matter of whether the added functions are worth the cost, and the slightly larger footprint. They're also much more valuable, and possibly justifable, for live rigs, where that kind of quick control is critical.

[Dannyalcatraz]

10 hours ago, Winston Psmith said:

Not that you really need anything else underfoot, but . . .

 

At some point, you might want to look at one of the Pedal Switching Systems to help manage your rig. They give you lots of flexibility, in terms of switching entire chains of effects On and Off, and some of them offer MIDI PC & CC, as well. "One-Switch-To-Rule-Them-All", or something like it . . .

 

They're not cheap, so it's a matter of whether the added functions are worth the cost, and the slightly larger footprint. They're also much more valuable, and possibly justifable, for live rigs, where that kind of quick control is critical.

I have a single Carl Martin Octaswitch, and I love it to pieces.  
 

If I were SERIOUS, and actually did what I started saying I wanted to ohhhhh…ten years ago (?!) and sorted my vast array of stompboxes into genre-specific boards, I’d probably own a few more Octas.  There’s something to be said for changing your ENTIRE sonic palette with a single foot tap, then doing it again to a third, fourth, fifth, etc. core tone without looking like a bad tap dancer.

 

…and going back to your original core tone just as easily,

[Winston Psmith]

14 hours ago, Dannyalcatraz said:

There’s something to be said for changing your ENTIRE sonic palette with a single foot tap, then doing it again to a third, fourth, fifth, etc. core tone without looking like a bad tap dancer.

 

…and going back to your original core tone just as easily,

 

Part of why I started using MFX for playing live. One power supply, one set of connections, no impedance matching issues, nearly seamless switching of effects within a patch, and no Amp, to name but a few advantages.