How does one become an "outside writer"?

[shniggens]

Say you have written some songs that were pretty good (in your mind, anyway), and would like to get them played by an established band. How does one market their songs in this fashion?

[Barandine Vondenger]

danged iffen I know..

[Philip OKeefe]

A Publisher.

[Mike Dawson]

I was an outside writer, once. Then I came inside - it was starting to get dark.

 

I've written a lot of songs that sound good in my mind. I think the trick is to write songs that sound good in other people's ears...specifically a publisher.

[shniggens]

Anyone have a publisher's number?

[Duddits]

"Publisher" is the right answer, but I don't think it really works, at least not at first.

 

You need to have a non-publisher connection with someone involved in the recording project or in the group.

 

Warning: the following contains mixed metaphors:

 

Given that most artists would rather have their own meteocre songs fill up their albums rather than solicit better songs from outside sources, and of the precious album spots, there is ferocious competition, you need some human connection between you/your song and the group. As hard as that sounds, if your song is really good, and you do a decent demo of it, and play it for people who know people who know people (and everyong does), it will bubble up. Cream rises to the top, cynicism be damned.

 

Unfortunately, all that glisters isn't gold, and not everyone's as good a driver as they think. But cream will rise to the top, because people want cream. If your song is really that good, it will sell itself (provided you make a decent demo and play it for your connected friends, which you have).

 

Meow.

[Mike Dawson]

If the cream is what's rising to the top, I'd sure hate to hear the sour milk that doesn't make it

 

Alright, shniggens, let's assume you're talking about getting a song you wrote on nationwide radio and Rick Dees top 40 (does he still do that?) and MTV and making you a million dollars. I'll see how short I can keep this hangover induced crash course in cynicism.

 

The music business is exceptionally complicated because there are so many variables that come into play with so few constants (and even the constants aren't steadfast). And when you consider the fact that the industry likes to change directions entirely and chase whatever trend is popular at the moment, you can see why it's impossible to really answer your question.

 

A good place to start is genre- in the US, for the most part, genres have a relative home (ie. country=Nashville, Pop/Rock/Alternative=New York+LA, etc...). So you should have an idea of where you want to direct your focus.

 

Easy enough, right? So let's complicate it. In the pop/rock world (which I'm admittedly much less familiar with than country) the songs tend to come from 1 of 2 sources: either the artist (as Duddits mentioned) or a producer/writer (ie- Max Martin, Cliff Magness, The Matrix, etc...). The few remaining songs are written by 'outside writers', so there's your shot - you're now in direct and intense competition with Diane Warren, Desmond Child, and lord knows how many other established writers with a history of hit songs.

 

If you're writing country your odds are a little better, but that's not saying much. The good news it's pretty common for a country artist to record outside songs (although more and more artists write or co-write their songs as the quality of the song is becoming less important to it's commercial success). The bad news is that Nashville is saturated with writers looking for a hit. Every day there are literally thousands of songs written by people who eat, sleep, and breathe country music (whatever exactly country music has become).

 

So no problem, right? That's really just the tip of the iceberg, but you can get an idea why publishers aren't banging down your door to get to your songs. Yet.

 

Duddits said, in a much more concise manner than myelf, the best place to start - networking. It sure is hard if you don't live an area with a real scene (ie-publshing houses, record labels), but get out and meet people. Get out and perform your songs - if you can't play or sing find someone who can - and meet the people who come. Go out when other people play and meet them. Eventually you meet someone-who knows someone-who knows someone...

 

Some people also believe in tip sheets - pamphlets that let writers know where to send material in particular styles for particular artists. I've never tried them myself, but I believe you can subscribe to some online.

 

So to answer your question - 'How does one become an outside writer?' : (1) write great, memorable, marketable songs; (2) record killer demoes so that anyone who listens to it can hear that it's a hit; (3) network and establish relationships and contacts so that you can send your song down the river and hope it floats through the appropriate channels and ends up in the hands of someone who wants to put it on the radio.

 

That river metaphor is a spur of the moment-original thought. Probably the only part of this post that's worthwhile...

[pseudonym]

Duddits, for a cat, you certainly are well informed! Several years ago I went to a seminar/class where a guy named Danny Wolfe gave us the lowdown on getting songs to a performer, and yes everything Duddits said is true.

 

Danny had some of his songs done by Gene Vincent and then the Stray cats did one of those songs many years later. He also has had success with a few other "artists". He told us, if you can get you're song to a hairdresser or manager or lawyer or anyone connected to an artist, that's the way to do it.

 

It is also really a good idea to have material similar enough to the artist that they can immediately relate to it. But not to over-produce it so they can add in their own concepts/ideas.

 

I like the idea of just getting a publisher or something like Taxi to do all the schmoozing for you, but that doesn't get much accomplished from what I know.

 

I need to get back in that mode someday, the fun and profits can be really nice for a songwriter. Danny said he was sent a $300,000 royalty check for his song the Stray Cats did! Thats alot-of cat-food dude!

 

I just googled Danny Wolfe, look's like he died in '96, too bad.......

[fantasticsound]

If you're looking to sell a country song to an artist, the simple fact is that without having a personal "in" to the artist (hairdresser, manager, etc.), you have no real chance of getting your song in front of them without coming to Nashville, networking with other writers through the plethora of songwriter's nights and getting yourself a staff job with one of the publishers in town. As Mike Dawson mentioned, there are literally thousands of known and unknown writers pumping out songs constantly.

 

In Nashville, if you hook up with a publishing deal, you'll spend your days going from appointment to appointment to write with other published writers. And frankly, even the ones who have many hits to their credit still write many more songs than are ever cut. Some are great. Some are dogs. Their job is to provide massive output, in the hope that good talent will eventually write another hit. But most of these writers spent years getting plugged in to the system.

 

I take one exception to Mike Dawson's comments. That artists are writing or co-writing songs in country music is not, as I see it, the limiting factor that brings down the overall quality of songs. I think it has much more to do with choosing songs on both time and $$$ budgets. They aren't spending the time to find more than one or two good songs, or, they don't have the budget to option the best ones.

 

Look at the artists best known for writing a good portion of their own catalog; Alan Jackson, Garth Brooks, Clint Black, Vince Gill... These guys are monster writers, at least two of whom have publicly stated that their writing awards mean much more to them than the coveted Entertainer of the Year awards. They see themselves as creators more than entertainers.

[Mike Dawson]

Well Neil, we'll just have to agree to agree

 

I was referring to the more recent class of Dierks Bentley, Jeff Bates, Jimmy Wayne, Keith Urban, Shania Twain, Kenny Chesney. Not necessarily all bad writers, but certainly not in the league of the 4 you mentioned. Brad Paisley's the only new guy I would honestly say is up there.

 

I'm not suggesting that these guys started writing and brought down the level of song quality. I think the fuction of the song is changing, as country music reaches out more and more to that pop-crossover audience. The focus is moving from timeless stories aimed at adults to simple emotions aimed at teenage girls, and as a result the standard of a hit song has dropped into the range of some of those less talented artist-writers.

 

In short, I think it's much more calculated than simply lack of effort or funds. I'm not sure which one of us is giving them less credit...

[steelandre]

Originally posted by Mike Dawson:

The bad news is that Nashville is saturated with writers looking for a hit. Every day there are literally thousands of songs written by people who eat, sleep, and breathe country music

LOL, to illustrate what Mike just said. I was sitting at my hotel bar in Nashville one night and met a guy sitting next to me. He asked me what a Dutch person was doing in town and I told him I was there to produce an album for a singer. Within seconds he went to get a guitar and started playing songs he had written to see if I was interested in recording them. A few minutes later many others sitting at the bar joined us too and started to sing songs they wrote. I was given a bunch of lyric sheets, cassettes and business cards. It turned out quite a party and we all had a blast.

 

Kind of proves Mikes' point about writers taking every opportunity to sell their material.

 

steelandre.

[Tedster]

You're a good sport, SteelAndre...many others in that situation would have taken the first opportunity to get outta there...

 

[nursers]

Yes Rick Dees still does the Top 40 - they export it down here

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by Mike Dawson:

Well Neil, we'll just have to agree to agree

 

I was referring to the more recent class of Dierks Bentley, Jeff Bates, Jimmy Wayne, Keith Urban, Shania Twain, Kenny Chesney. Not necessarily all bad writers, but certainly not in the league of the 4 you mentioned. Brad Paisley's the only new guy I would honestly say is up there.

 

I'm not suggesting that these guys started writing and brought down the level of song quality. I think the fuction of the song is changing, as country music reaches out more and more to that pop-crossover audience. The focus is moving from timeless stories aimed at adults to simple emotions aimed at teenage girls, and as a result the standard of a hit song has dropped into the range of some of those less talented artist-writers.

 

In short, I think it's much more calculated than simply lack of effort or funds. I'm not sure which one of us is giving them less credit...

Hard to argue that. They're not Alan Jackson, for certain.

 

But I like two of those guys. I worked CRS when The Ranch closed the New Faces show. Keith Urban floored me, as a picker, with Scatterbilly. I've only heard his hits off the last album and, frankly, I like them. But neither has the poignancy of a Home, Wanted, or Midnight In Montgomery.

 

I worked a songwriter's night with Jimmy Wayne Barber in 2000. He played his hit for Tracy Byrd, Put Your Hand In Mine along with a song called How Did I Get From Your Heart To Here and covered Hall & Oates' Sara Smile. All were wonderful. I remember complimenting him, both on his songwriting and singing, and he just looked right through me as he complained that no one at the record labels was giving him more than the time of day. I didn't see him again until he was introduced as Jimmy Wayne. I have yet to hear anything from his debut album that approaches either song he played that night. Too bad. He really can write.

 

But I definitely see your point. None of these people seem to get as close to the subjects of their best songs as Alan. (I'd suggest Jimmy Wayne can, and did on the two songs mentioned. But I haven't seen it in his solo career.)

 

Funny, I always thought a great contrast was Randy Travis and Alan Jackson. Alan is a truly phenomenal writer. Randy's good, but more than that, he and his management were always good at finding songs that could truly become Randy's through his recordings and performances of them. That's how writers stay busy in Nashville. Because everyone who's smart goes in search of a song that's great and which they can make their own. Garth did it with (among others) The Dance. (Liner notes for The Hits say he stood listening to Tony Arata play that song at the Bluebird and thought to himself, "Does anyone else hear what a great song that is?!?". Alabama did it with "Angels Among Us". Heck, Disney's people do it all the time by casting certain voices for songs that accompany their films. (Think Sarah McLauglin for "When Somebody Loved Me" from Toy Story 2, for example.)

 

I just don't understand how so few great songs seem to be getting recorded for release in Nashville when there are so many out there to choose from...

 

{end diatribe}

[Mike Dawson]

Good story, Andre. And I'd have to agree with Tedster- that's extremely cool that you would approach it as an opportunity to meet people and have a good time.

 

[unrelated story]

My first night in town I went over to the Bluebird Cafe with some friends of mine. We had a few drinks and sat at a table in the corner listening to 4 writers take turns playing their songs. One of the writers was this cute southern blonde, sporting a Taylor acoustic and a high school cheerleading outfit (if she ever gave a reason why I must have been staring at her legs at the time and missed it). Between songs I wondered aloud to one of my friends if the singing cheerleader had plans later on in the evening and if she might want to go out and maybe have a beer and get married. He laughed and said 'I don't see a ring on her finger." It struck me as a good line, so I borrowed a pen and wrote it down on my napkin so I could take it home and put it in my shoebox of scraps of paper with lines and ideas like that.

 

It didn't occur to me until we were leaving the tip for the waitress that when she cleared the table of dishes and trash that she left the napkin on the table. It made me chuckle as I folded it and put it in my pocket, because I'm sure that's a regular occurance. It's probably part of their training to keep their eyes open for stuff like that. I can just envision some poor waitress, her first night on the job, getting yelled at by an irate customer because she threw away the gum wrapper with his hit song idea.

 

I love this town

[Mike Dawson]

I saw Keith Urban over at the Opry in March. I think he played 5 songs, 4 of which I don't remember but I know they illustrated that he's a good looking guy who can sing and pick a guitar. Then he finished with his current single, alone on the stage with an acoustic guitar. I don't think I've ever played acoustic/vocal for more than 100 people- this guy's doing it to a packed house at the Opry and a nationwide telecast on CMT. He did a solid job with it, too. I don't particularly care for most his music or writing, but he's definitely an extremely talented guy.

 

I did like "Your Everything" (I'm such a sap)

 

Speaking of being a sap, 'Put Your Hand in Mine' is a great song. I knew Skip Ewing co-wrote it, but I never pieced together that he wrote it with the 'Stay Gone' Jimmy Wayne. I'd agree that song illustrates his writing talent more that what I've heard off his first album. Maybe he should write more with Skip (everyone should write more with Skip...)

I just don't understand how so few great songs seem to be getting recorded for release in Nashville when there are so many out there to choose from...

As Don Rollins says, "There are more big macs in this world than lobsters" (he didn't actually come up with that, but I can't remember off the top of my head who he credited with coining it)

[LiveMusic]

It was enlightening to me to find that "Paint Me A Birmingham" was recorded and sitting on the shelf for two years. Tracy Lawrence lost his record deal. The song was done (recorded) and just wasting away. The writers were p.o.'d and thought they had a good one. Pitched it to Ken Mellons. He records it, releases it. Tracy Lawrence gets re-signed, they release the song also. It's a smash.

 

Floors me to wonder how THAT song isn't rushed to the airwaves. It doesn't work that way, there are lots of great songs, apparently. I've read quotes from hit songwriters who say how sickening it is to them to know how many great songs never see the light of day... they just die in the file cabinet. Ugh.