How I almost made a terrible $1600 impulse buy...

[Morrissey]

then it's completely nerfed by an absolutely AWFUL AP. This was an afterthought and practically a hidden easter egg, but if they spent any more time on it making the piano passable, it would quickly move itself up the chain to be a very serious contender. Unfortunately I've seen almost no development on it for about a year and a half, and they have NEVER touched the piano.

I think their sound design is basically a one-man operation, and it's kind of amazing he's done as much as he has. I wouldn't knock him for not having cracked the nut on how to model a high quality acoustic piano, which very few people have managed. (Roland, Pianoteq, maybe Viscount?) Going to straight sampling could be a possibility--and in fact, there was a recent facebook post where he showed a new piano-playing mechanism that was developed for the purpose of better capturing samples so maybe that's a direction he's going--but I wouldn't assume there's enough memory in the existing Mojo61 design to hold a deeply sampled piano, either.

 

I'm a bit ignorant on Crumar products. Do their other products besides the Mojo (e.g., the Seven) suggest Crumar is pursuing a quality AP sound, even if not for the Mojo?

[cp-the-nerd]

FWIW, I'm about to make a $1000 impulse buy...

 

Whatcha buying?

 

The Mojo61 stands in a very curious place. As an organ, it's absolutely top-tier. But then they started adding to it. Very nice EPs and transistor. It starts to become a fairly solid "All in one vintage piano/organ board"... then it's completely nerfed by an absolutely AWFUL AP. This was an afterthought and practically a hidden easter egg, but if they spent any more time on it making the piano passable, it would quickly move itself up the chain to be a very serious contender. Unfortunately I've seen almost no development on it for about a year and a half, and they have NEVER touched the piano.

 

I agree! I tend toward playing a lot of vintage EP stuff anyway, so using the Minilogue XD and Mojo 61 would be a super portable and fun rig for me. Thing is, I stepped away from band stuff over a year ago and I've been more happy than ever composing with my looper in my home studio. I have more need for ensemble and miscellaneous sounds than ever, and it was hard to admit the Mojo's shortcomings grew into dealbreakers because I just think it's so damn cool in black with reverse keys.

 

The week after I get the electro, watch Crumar announce an all new Mojo with broader appeal.

[EricBarker]

Yeah, AFAIK Crumar has about 3 employees total, including sales and physical (final) assembly. They're nuts. The B3 is VB3-2, licensed and tailor-tweaked by Guido at GSI. But the Rhodes, Wurli, Vox, Farf, Pipe, and AP are all internally produced. Truth is, the Rhodes and Wurli stand toe to toe with best EP VIs. Farf and Vox are fine (though I rarely use them outside of very kitsch things). Pipe Organ is nothing fancy, and it can't possibly do it justice without a TON of stop toggles, but they've done a fairly admirable job of mixing them into 9 draw bars.

 

Mojos are extremely curious instruments. Way more thought into their usability and design than you'd expect. They've got some very weird idiosyncrasies due to trying to keep the complexity and cost down, but the central performance stuff is second to none! They have one of the best tuned waterfall beds on the market, and feel great to play... but structurally, they didn't do a fantastic job of securing the hardware inside the box. The circuit boards are just screwed into the back and kind of hanging in air, so the jacks are prone to problems with wear and tear. Advanced programming is accomplished via a WiFi interface whose controller is... wait for it, a Raspberry Pi! As far as I can tell, its only job is to run the WiFi client and Browser for tweaking, but is separate from the main DSP board. It's kind of an ingenious design... very odd... but it does the job and is probably very cheap and simple. There's a very "mad scientist" feel about the innards of the Mojo. When my tech opened it for the first time, he was kind of shocked!

 

But it's just made me appreciate it that much more. Old-school, brute force ingenuity from a few guys in Italy who REALLY did their homework!

[Paughrock]

Why do you guys continue to spend thousands upon thousands of dollars on these things? They all sound the same. Truly. Stand front of house, I can assure you that whatever you were playing back in 199x and now, played through your local club's sub standard PA will sound pretty much the same to the inebriated, instagram surfing audience. For what these plastic microchip holders cost you could be investing in a real tonewheel or electromechanical, or acoustic and actually protect your principal, or better yet, lessons with a qualified instructor. If latest and greatest is your bag, buy a great controller and a laptop.

[16251]

...gas

[nadroj]

Why do you guys continue to spend thousands upon thousands of dollars on these things? They all sound the same. Truly. Stand front of house, I can assure you that whatever you were playing back in 199x and now, played through your local club's sub standard PA will sound pretty much the same to the inebriated, instagram surfing audience. For what these plastic microchip holders cost you could be investing in a real tonewheel or electromechanical, or acoustic and actually protect your principal, or better yet, lessons with a qualified instructor. If latest and greatest is your bag, buy a great controller and a laptop.

 

Gear isn't about them. It's about me.

 

Put me behind a keyboard that I don't like that does something very similar to a keyboard I do like, and my playing will be vastly different. The crowd may hear the same tone, but they won't hear the same notes. If I have something that I enjoy, that inspires me and that lets me express myself in the way I want, the crowd in front of those FOH speakers are gonna have a different experience. I can get passable organ tones out of my MODX, and they might even sound similar to my Electro for 80% of the punters, but if you want me to take an organ solo on the MODX you're gonna hear an even shittier organ solo than you would if I was on the Electro.

[ElmerJFudd]

Heh heh. They all sound the same to most everyone in an audience anywhere. Audience doesn"t care if it"s an organ patch on a jv-1010 or IK B3X. But to the discerning player"s ear theres a difference and if playing organ is your joy then it"s no different than blowing your hard earned scratch on a car, sports memorabilia, or a vacation.

[Paughrock]

It's the staggering cost of these microchip holders. If you need 'that tone' in order to express yourself I'd wager that with what some of you have thrown away in clonewheel 'upgrades' in the last twenty years you could have bought a real console AND a crew to set it up and tear it down at least twice a month. Get to that place where you're so connected to your own playing and your own voice that the tone is redundant. A good teacher can get you there. Again it's all about what you want to spend your money on. I just don't get spending thousands upon thousands of dollars on going in circles.

[AndreaAgnoletto]

Yeah, AFAIK Crumar has about 3 employees total, including sales and physical (final) assembly.

 

Just curious: where does this information come from? Sorry to say but it's not correct :-)

 

Andrea Agnoletto

[Polychrest]

Has Pfizer developed an anti-GAS vaccine yet?

[Paughrock]

Haha. I saw Joe Louis Walker's keyboard player in Alanta do three sets using one organ patch on an old ensoniq. The most impassioned, inspired, "of the moment" keyboard playing I've ever heard. Cured me of my gas then and there. Never changed my rig since.

[Adan]

Why do you guys continue to spend thousands upon thousands of dollars on these things? They all sound the same. Truly. Stand front of house, I can assure you that whatever you were playing back in 199x and now, played through your local club's sub standard PA will sound pretty much the same to the inebriated, instagram surfing audience. For what these plastic microchip holders cost you could be investing in a real tonewheel or electromechanical, or acoustic and actually protect your principal, or better yet, lessons with a qualified instructor. If latest and greatest is your bag, buy a great controller and a laptop.

 

You make a valid point, one that in general I agree with, but then you go way too far with it. My SKPro sounds vastly better than the Hammond clone I was using in 1995. Not a subtle difference. Is the SKPro that much better than the SK1? Not if you judge by organ sound alone. But if you look at the whole package of sounds including monosynth then yes, it's much better and worth the upgrade.

 

Digital versus analog debate is as old as . . . well . . . as old as digital versus analog. If I invest in a real Hammond then I'd still need to buy a clone for gigging because it's not 1971 anymore -- you can't tell your bandmates "be at my house at 3 pm to help load up my B3 and Leslie."

 

Gear versus lessons, that cost/benefit calculation parses out differently for everyone. I don't think you can generalize.

 

Many of us on this forum tend to put too much stock in gear upgrades. I'm guilty of that. But it's not an all-or-nothing type of issue. If I cut back my gear exchanges by about half, I'd probably be in the right place.

[cp-the-nerd]

Why do you guys continue to spend thousands upon thousands of dollars on these things? They all sound the same. Truly. Stand front of house, I can assure you that whatever you were playing back in 199x and now, played through your local club's sub standard PA will sound pretty much the same to the inebriated, instagram surfing audience. For what these plastic microchip holders cost you could be investing in a real tonewheel or electromechanical, or acoustic and actually protect your principal, or better yet, lessons with a qualified instructor. If latest and greatest is your bag, buy a great controller and a laptop.

 

Good thing I'm buying it primarily for an audience of me, then! Seems a little bizarre to sneer at people discussing sub-$3000 keyboards on a keyboard website. A real organ makes zero sense for my needs, nor is a real hammond particularly more affordable. Maybe next you can join a car forum and holler at everyone buying new sports cars when a used 90s corvette does the trick.

[EricBarker]

Yeah, AFAIK Crumar has about 3 employees total, including sales and physical (final) assembly.

 

Just curious: where does this information come from? Sorry to say but it's not correct :-)

 

Andrea Agnoletto

 

I"m just repeating what I"ve read from a few different sources in passing, mostly here on KC. Some people say it"s a 2-man operation, but most of the sources I"ve heard say 3. Someone on this thread said 2. I"ve tried multiple times to research it, but I"m finding very little online. I"d be happy to learn what you know on the company.

[Joe Muscara]

Yeah, AFAIK Crumar has about 3 employees total, including sales and physical (final) assembly.

 

Just curious: where does this information come from? Sorry to say but it's not correct :-)

 

Andrea Agnoletto

 

I"m just repeating what I"ve read from a few different sources in passing, mostly here on KC. Some people say it"s a 2-man operation, but most of the sources I"ve heard say 3. Someone on this thread said 2. I"ve tried multiple times to research it, but I"m finding very little online. I"d be happy to learn what you know on the company.

You know that Andrea is a big part of Crumar, right? In fact, his LinkedIn profile lists him as "owner"!

[EricBarker]

That"s awesome! I"d love to learn about Thai from the horses mouth then!

[Joe Muscara]

That"s awesome! I"d love to learn about Thai from the horses mouth then!

(I know I'm not Andrea butâ¦) AFAIK, it's pretty much Andrea and Guido. I've seen pictures when they've had a person or two helping with assembly, and Max Tempia does their demos.

[EricBarker]

Then I"m confused⦠isn"t that pretty much what I said? I guess I didn"t realize Guido was apart of Crumar officially, I figured he runs his own company but works directly with them.

 

Whatever it is, it"s a very small and hard working outfit, I want Andrea and everyone involved to know how much I love what they do!

[Paughrock]

 

Good thing I'm buying it primarily for an audience of me, then! Seems a little bizarre to sneer at people discussing sub-$3000 keyboards on a keyboard website. A real organ makes zero sense for my needs, nor is a real hammond particularly more affordable. Maybe next you can join a car forum and holler at everyone buying new sports cars when a used 90s corvette does the trick.

I sneer because the idea that some miniscule, incremental programming change is going to unleash some greater level of musicianship is ludicrous. Anyone who does the full time sideman tour thing will tell you that no tour manager, or tech would ever accept changing your rig as much as some of you in the weekend warrior world do. All I'm trying to do is make the humble suggestion that for the staggering amount of coin that you drop on selling your mojo for your electro x, whatever, you could invest in a real tonewheel and probably hire a crew to set it up and tear it down, or better yet, work with a teacher who can unleash your creative potential far better than some programmer can. And fyi, not an analog vs digital rant. A throwing thousands of dollars every year doesn't help your development as a musician rant.

[ElmerJFudd]

I don"t see a correlation between instrument purchase/sale and development of musical skill, experience and education at all.

 

One can practice/perform on a piece of crap, on the finest instrument or anything in between. The quality of the playing and quality of timbre are not the same.

 

That said, a great player deserves a decent instrument. Sooner or later that should happen. Wether it"s a benefactor"s gift, an endorsement deal or out of pocket.

 

There are talented players all over the world who will never be in an international touring act with a road crew to handle a B3 rig or Yamaha grand piano. There"s nothing wrong with playing small venues full time or as side work, virtually (YouTube perhaps) for anyone who is willing to listen, or as a hobby for one"s own enjoyment. All are lovers of music and music is for everyone.

[timwat]

Anyone who does the full time sideman tour thing will tell you that no tour manager, or tech would ever accept changing your rig as much as some of you in the weekend warrior world do. All I'm trying to do is make the humble suggestion that for the staggering amount of coin that you drop on selling your mojo for your electro x, whatever, you could invest in a real tonewheel and probably hire a crew to set it up and tear it down, or, work with a teacher who can unleash your creative potential far better than some programmer can.

 

I might suggest that there are a different perspectives represented by different types of forum members.

 

There are some full time musicians who make their primary living from music, some regularly gigging part timers who derive some (but not all) their income from music, others who gig irregularly, and some who do not earn any significant revenue from gigging. And attitudes toward gear are going to vary substantially between these groups - and between members of the same group.

 

Having done a limited amount of interstate touring, I fully concur that when in that setting, all that mattered to me was that the backline provided delivered a short list of sounds and functions, but did that without fail. Didn't have to be 100% perfect, or 100% authentic, just get me adequately through the evening in workmanlike fashion and I'll do the rest. Just tools, ma'am, thank you for asking. And for my busy local gig calendar, the rig I won is 10- and 9-years old, respectively, and unlikely to change anytime soon. Doesn't stop me from being tempted by the newest shiny object, but I haven't upgraded the gig rig in quite some time.

 

But if others approach buying keyboards as something akin to golf clubs, as an enjoyable pursuit to spend their discretionary income for their own personal ends, or never seek to earn any real income gigging, or the OP desperately needs a good organ (in his own words), that should be all good. I noticed after reading his original post and your response, that he never mentioned wanting to unleash some greater level of musicianship. He just said he desperately needs a good organ in his arsenal (and looking at the boards in his auto signature, I'm guessing you would be inclined to agree).

 

Just my 0.02

 

tim

[Paughrock]

I don"t see a correlation between instrument purchase/sale and development of musical skill, experience and education at all.

 

One can practice/perform on a piece of crap, on the finest instrument or anything in between. The quality of the playing and quality of timbre are not the same.

 

That said, a great player deserves a decent instrument. Sooner or later that should happen. Wether it"s a benefactor"s gift, an endorsement deal or out of pocket.

 

There are talented players all over the world who will never be in an international touring act with a road crew to handle a B3 rig or Yamaha grand piano. There"s nothing wrong with playing small venues full time or as side work, virtually (YouTube perhaps) for anyone who is willing to listen, or as a hobby for one"s own enjoyment. All are lovers of music and music is for everyone.

Not sure where you're going with your hallmark straw man here but my experience has been (as my earlier posts read) that it's usually the reverse: the best players I've ever heard we're full timers playing in dive bars on vastly out of date gear.

[Paughrock]

I don"t see a correlation between instrument purchase/sale and development of musical skill, experience and education at all.

 

One can practice/perform on a piece of crap, on the finest instrument or anything in between. The quality of the playing and quality of timbre are not the same.

 

That said, a great player deserves a decent instrument. Sooner or later that should happen. Wether it"s a benefactor"s gift, an endorsement deal or out of pocket.

 

There are talented players all over the world who will never be in an international touring act with a road crew to handle a B3 rig or Yamaha grand piano. There"s nothing wrong with playing small venues full time or as side work, virtually (YouTube perhaps) for anyone who is willing to listen, or as a hobby for one"s own enjoyment. All are lovers of music and music is for everyone.

Not sure where you're going with your hallmark straw man here but my experience has been (as my earlier posts read) that it's usually the reverse: the best players I've ever heard we're full timers playing in dive bars on vastly out of date gear. Tim, I agree with your synopsis but I think for some GAS is not a joke but a sad issue that holds one back from reaching their potential.

[ElmerJFudd]

I believe your opinion offered as fact isn"t based on fact. It"s just your biased perception that great players exclusively play old gear. YMMV

 

 

People are going to spend their money where they like and there"s no correlation between rig and quality of playing. Yes, I see great players dragging around vintage gear to play vintage music. If you"re going to be doing organ all night in a B3 heavy set list. Then yeah, maybe it"s worth it to you to drag around the real thing. Or maybe you"re the house band and it"s always there. Who knows. But there"s plenty of equally great players who are sick of the haul and rather use a clone. Then there"s those whose gig is all encompassing where MainStage and a laptop or a Kronos is the right way to go for the material. And then there"s piano players where there"s never a digital that"s pleasing enough - but almost always better than the acoustic at the venue, if there"s one at all (which is way more common). So lighter, better playing, better sounding equates to their own ability to feel good about their music making. Just some examples that come to mind.

[cp-the-nerd]

Paughrock, you're just coming off as bitter by making arguments that are irrelevant to my thread. I don't currently own an organ sim and I sure as hell don't want or need an actual organ. I play to create music on my own and occasionally jam with musicians who *do* appreciate quality gear.

 

I'm buying a $2600 Nord because it will be my most portable keyboard, it has a good organ sim, and the auxiliary sounds and functions are worlds better quality than my old beat-up yamaha. Color me SHOCKED that everyone else is also discussing keyboards that fit the topic.

[Paughrock]

Sorry that yours was the thread that broke the camel's back. This forum is primarily a place for manufacturers to advertise gear to hobbyists. I'm coming from having toured as a sideman for almost twenty years. My bitter edge comes from that. Would be cool if the moderators created a thread for bitter old road warriors like me. Again, sorry that I derailed. Good luck with your purchase. My two cents: don't overlook build quality which seems to be getting worse these days, not better.

[AndreaAgnoletto]

Then I"m confused⦠isn"t that pretty much what I said? I guess I didn"t realize Guido was apart of Crumar officially, I figured he runs his own company but works directly with them.

 

Whatever it is, it"s a very small and hard working outfit, I want Andrea and everyone involved to know how much I love what they do!

 

Thanks!

Well... the fact is that time passes (I remember 10 years ago people calling us "the boys at Crumar"... unfortunately we are no more "boys" ahahah). We started like a micro business but, years later, and after 2 movings, I think it's not correct to still consider "Crumar" a one (or two) man operation.

As a matter of fact there's me, Guido (yes, the GSi software is a different company), someone in the customer service, 6 people in the assembly line and rsp for production, one in the administration. We have few external collaborators mainly for software and design. We don't do selling anymore (at least in Europe), because we have a partner company in the Netherlands for this, and there, there's someone working for us.

I need to add that, during the years, we outsourced many processes, we don't manage accessories directly anymore for example since 3/4 years, if we still had them in-house, we would probably have 2 more workers :-)

Many people are still a little bit amazed when they write us emails and often I'm the one replying... well that's simply because I like it and I think that customer support is probably the most importanti thing and... I like to have as much as I can under control.

Just to clarify the Crumar/GSi relation: it's easier than it seems.

As a matter of fact we consider "CRUMAR", "GSi", "GMlab" only brands... and the manufacturing company, the building (the one I'm in from monday to friday, sometimes also in the weekends), the assembly line, the R&D, call it what you want is not called "Crumar". This is a choice we made. We are also involved in other projects, we did industrialization for a few musical products that I can't tell you, we also work in other fields, different than "keyboards". I hope this will clarify a little bit.

 

Have a nice weekend!

 

Andrea Agnoletto

[Adan]

Still love my Mojo, and always interested in what Crumar is working on next. In a world of vanilla-flavored keyboards, they are a rainbow gelato.

 

On that other topic, the very idea of telling people you don't know how to spend their money just seems absurd to me. If someone I know extremely well asks my opinion, then maybe.

[Paughrock]

Still love my Mojo, and always interested in what Crumar is working on next. In a world of vanilla-flavored keyboards, they are a rainbow gelato.

 

On that other topic, the very idea of telling people you don't know how to spend their money just seems absurd to me. If someone I know extremely well asks my opinion, then maybe.

I can't imagine how suffocating it must be living in such an uptight state as to be so perpetually anxious about potentially offending all the time. Does very little towards the collective common good. English or Canadian? Haha. Lighten up man. I'm just expressing an opinion about gear. Oh wait, I forgot that this place is a gear acquisition echo chamber funded by the very manufacturers who will sell you the gear that you will be posting on the classified thread in about six months. Now I remember why any time I post anything mildly critical of said status quo I get ganged up on. Ciao.

[16251]

I recently got a Mojo61. I find it "organic," no pun intended. It is fulfilling childhood dream. IMHO, an authentic B3 with Leslie and a Fender Rhodes Suitcase with stereo vibrato.