Slow 16-note pop ballad notation

[Floyd Tatum]

Warning! This is a post about notation, for anyone who's interested in such things - hopefully some of you.

 

"Back in the day", I would occasionally write a chart or lead sheet for a pop ballad-y tune where the quarter note, and the pulse, would be, let's say 60 BPM.

 

I'd be faced with a choice: write the chart in 4/4 ('common time') where each pulse was represented by a (60 bpm) quarter note, or write it in cut time, with the pulse represented by two quarter half notes.

 

An example of this type of tune is Never Gonna Let You Go by Sergio Mendes, mentioned in another current thread. In fact, it was Rick Beato's Youtube post ("The Most Complex Pop Song of All Time") that got me thinking about this subject. Rick's on-screen notes during that video are of the first type I mentioned, where quarter note = pulse = 60bpm.

 

For an example of the second type, written in cut time, here's a link to a sample of a commercial chart for Never Gonna Let You Go. I'm just gonna put the raw link here, I don't want to display the image. If you're interested, I hope you won't mind clicking the link to take a look.

 

https://www.virtualsheetmusic.com/score/HL-380524.html

 

The above chart is written in cut time, where it takes two quarter notes to represent a pulse, thus, not optimal for conveying the feel, in my opinion. I don't think experienced readers would necessarily have difficulty reading such a cut time chart, I just don't know if cut time is appropriate for this type of feel. I know I'd rather read it in common time. When I would write such a chart, I would think of these things. However, there would be times when I'd be drawn towards one or the other way.

 

I suspect that the reason the above commercial chart is written in cut time, is not that one way is 'correct' and another way is not. Rather, it's that they probably thought it would be easier to fit the lyrics into an eighth-note chart. Also that it would be easier for a beginner-level musician (i.e., the target audience) to read eighth notes than sixteenth notes. In other words, practical considerations of one type or another, which seems reasonable.

 

My first impulse is that I'd rather see a chart like this written in common time, but I have to admit that when I read an old chart of mine written that way, I sometimes think "Jeez, everything is so cramped together". So maybe ya just can't win.

 

Is this making sense to anyone here? I guess part of what I'm wondering here is: what is the best way to convey this feel, via a chart, to an experienced bassist/drummer? How would experienced rhythm-section guys react to a common time vs a cut time chart, especially with this type of feel, would they care?

 

Aside from the common vs cut time aspect, another question would be the best words to describe such a feel? Let's say, for a theatre gig, where someone might be subbing in and reading the charts for the first time. In such cases, in my (admittedly limited) theatre experience, there are often some descriptive words at the top of charts, or when the feel changes for a section of music.

"Straight 16th-note ballad with subtle backbeat"? "80s pop ballad feel"? Something else? Nothing? Or does it not matter?

 

And what's this got to do with the price of cheese, anyway? :-)

[stoken6]

I think a 16th note chart implies (correctly) that the snare backbeat happens on beats 2 and 4. It might be more difficult (for e.g. a singer) to read the melody line, but that's probably a price worth paying.

 

The virtualsheetmusic chart you linked to would need to be played with a half-time feel, backbeat on beat 3.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[BernMeister]

...I suspect that the reason that commercial chart is written in cut time, is not that one way is 'correct' and another way is not. Rather, it's that they probably thought it would be easier to fit the lyrics into an eighth-note chart. Also that it would be easier for a beginner-level musician to read eighth notes than sixteenth notes. In other words, practical considerations of one type or another, which seems reasonable

This, is probably the only reason to chart it in cut time. Otherwise, if you are a singer who's reading through a song of this relative complexity...with all the interval jumps and stuff, then one must assume they can read any or most rhythms comfortably. Regardless, I would never chart this in cut time; it is clearly a standard 4/4 ballad feel (for the entire band, including vocals). Were I to provide this in cut time for my clientele, I'd surely hear it from them...and not in the positive sense!

[jerrythek]

Since you are talking about experienced/pro players I would never chart it in cut time. They certainly should be up to reading the more "dense" notation. Another reason for not doing it in cut time is to keep the chart length manageable. That is often a more important consideration to me when writing out charts (length, number of and location of page turns etc.).

 

I do deal with this issue often when writing my columns/educational material. When I am considering the unknown, but likely limited reading skills of my audience I will sometimes write out things in cut time so the notation is easier/friendlier, as is the case in the sheet music example you offered. In these cases it's less about what is "correct" and more about what will help the reader to make their way through what could be difficult examples to read. This is only for solos and performance licks etc. If you are teaching music then of course you want to be proper/correct.

 

Jerry

[Jazz+]

I always like the easier on the eyes cut time version and in a large font with 4 measures per line.

[Floyd Tatum]

I always like the easier on the eyes cut time version and in a large font with 4 measures per line.

 

(That's assuming you're joking.) On 2nd thought, maybe you're not?

[Floyd Tatum]

What about a name for this feel? That's one of the things I was wondering.

[Rodan88]

Stand back -

 

I have VERY strong feelings on this topic!

 

I agree 1000% with those who have said that notating a slow pop ballad (especially with 16th note rhythms/backbeat) in anything other than 4/4 is a REALLY bad idea.

 

Writing such a chart in cut-time completely misrepresents the feel and intention of the music, and is painful to the eyes and musical sensibilities of strong readers and trained musicians.

 

You're not making anything clearer by writing that type of chart in cut-time - and the irony is that many players have a much harder time reading and understanding cut-time than any other standard time signature! By far.

 

You're not saving anything - time, space, money, whatever - by cutting corners and notating a chart in such a profoundly wrong way. If the chart has to have one or two measures per system, so be it. Pros will thank you. And less-experienced players will learn to associate the proper notational choices with specific tempos/styles/grooves.

 

Of course, I've had those kind of abominations (typically, published pop-tune sheet music) put in front of me countless times, and the worst-case scenario is playing one of those charts when you don't know the song, and there's no indication on the chart (or verbal clarification from a conductor or bandleader) of the feel.

 

Similarly, I don't want to see a Broadway 2-beat or a salsa chart written in 4/4.

 

I'm used to seeing bossa novas in 4/4 at this point, but Brazilian sheet music always notates them in 2/4. Sambas are often written 2/4 as well, but due to the quicker tempo, cut-time is more common and acceptable.

 

All of the above are the metrical equivalent of an A Major triad with the 3rd written as a Db instead of a C#. Or a chord progression that mixes enharmonics indiscriminately, for example, a I VI II V in B represented as: B, Ab-7, C#-7, Gb. No. No. NOOOOOOOOOO!

 

Sight reading is ALL about pattern recognition, and things looking "right." I'm a super-strong reader, but nothing trips me up faster than a chart full of the above issues. As pianists, we're often reading 6 or more notes simultaneously, so another pet peeve is intervals stacked incorrectly. A triad should look like stacked 3rds, etc.

 

OK, I feel better now......

[Rodan88]

Floyd, it has a name. "Wrongly-Notated Feel." ;-D

 

Or, how about: "Deceptive Cadence," Half-Assed Time," "What?-Time."

 

Just came up with those - anyone else got one?

 

P.S. "Stab-Time"

[Rodan88]

Another overly-generalized but pretty accurate concept I came up with:

 

"If it's slow enough to conduct, it's in 4/4. If it's too fast to conduct, there's a good chance it's in cut-time."

 

Notable exception: Super-fast bebop tempos, a la Donna Lee - definitely a fast 4 .

[Floyd Tatum]

Stand back - I have VERY strong feelings on this topic!

etc....

etc...

OK, I feel better now......

 

A James Brown cape-routine emoji would go well here ...

[stoken6]

To take a tiny detour on this thread - how would people notate Sir Duke?

 

Metric modulation into the bridge (quarter-note = half-note) and 4/4 either side would be my first choice, based on "the backbeat falls on 2 and 4 by default". That would put "language we all understand" into one bar, and also "Basie, Miller", "Satchmo, and the" get one bar each.

 

Thoughts?

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Rodan88]

Good question, Mike!

 

The persistent 2-feel in the bass makes one think of cut-time, but the tempo is slow.

 

What really seals the deal (for me) is that the 16th notes swing (think of all the horn lines). Cut-time isn't a place where you'll see swinging rhythms, typically.

 

So - slow tempo, swinging 16ths - 4/4 all the way!

 

Also - all of the charts I've written for the song, and all of the ones I've seen, are in 4/4.

 

Finally, I had the GREAT, GREAT honor and privilege of performing this song (and several others) with Stevie.

 

But there were no charts in that situation - live, or at the rehearsal.

 

One of the greatest musical thrills of my life!

[stoken6]

Finally, I had the GREAT, GREAT honor and privilege of performing this song (and several others) with Stevie.

 

But there were no charts in that situation - live, or at the rehearsal.

We don't need no steenkin' charts!

 

Yeah, if you're up for playing with Stevie, you know that song.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[confidence]

I don't hear Never Gonna Let You Go in half time, I hear it in a slow 4/4. Half time is not just a slow tempo notated in doubled values, it's a particular feel. In half time you're still aware of the quarter note pulse, which might be in the hihat or whatever. It's just that the main focal effect of the snare is on 3 rather than on 2 and 4.

 

This is not that, you can hear the backbeat on 2 and 4 at certain points - subtly, but there. And it puts the vocal line into 16ths, not 8ths.

 

The melody may well be easier to read in eighths, but how many singers are actually going to perform it from reading the notation? Any singer going to do it on a gig will surely already know it, or learn it by ear. If they read anything in rehearsal it will be just for the words.