Bobadohshe Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 I have an upcoming cocktail hour hit on the beach and need to find a solution for portable power. Let's set aside the gas powered generator idea for now. I see there are a ton of portable battery power solutions available these days. I always get confused with wattages on PA speakers and what's actually required. My EV-ZLX says it's 1000 Watts - class D. Is that a peak or RMS. Do I need 1000 W of power from my battery? Would any of those portable power stations do the trick? The hit will only be 1 hr. Quote Kawai C-60 Grand Piano : Hammond A-100 : Hammond SK2 : Yamaha CP4 : Yamaha Montage 7 : Moog Sub 37 My latest album: Funky organ, huge horn section https://bobbycressey.bandcamp.com/album/cali-native Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coker Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 Take a look at the current rating in the PA"s specs. In the US, multiply the current (amps) by 110 (volts) to get a rough idea of the wattage. I think you PA uses about 0.5 amps in steady state, so it will use 50 to 60 watts. Quote CA93, MODX8, YC88, K8.2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichieP_MechE Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 Take a look at the current rating in the PA"s specs. In the US, multiply the current (amps) by 110 (volts) to get a rough idea of the wattage. I think you PA uses about 0.5 amps in steady state, so it will use 50 to 60 watts. ^^^ what he said. These kind of portable batteries are rated in Wh (Watt-hours). A 100 Wh battery will provide 100W continuously for 1 hour. Divide the battery rating by the total power consumption of all of your devices to determine how long your battery will least. For example, equipment pulling 200W will run for about 30 minutes on a 100 Wh battery. Something in the 200-300 Wh range should give you a comfortable 1 hour runtime with overhead for your beach gig. *edit* looking at some of these battery units, the AC plug has a current limit on the output, so make sure your total power draw doesn't exceed that. Though it looks like most are rated to at least 200W which should be no problem for a single speaker + KB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 Ready for TMI? Copied from EV's page with ZLX12 BT specs: Power Consumption 3 100 - 240 V~, 50 - 60 Hz, 0.8 - 0.5 A 3 Current rating is specified at â full output power. "1/8 full output power" is supposed to be a "real world" spec of what the average current draw would be in an audio amp. Current draw fluctuates with the signal being amplified. Program a synth sound that's a 60Hz sine wave and lean on the key for ten minutes with all volume controls at max... well, you'll probably be exceeding that "1/8 power" figure... but that's not how most program material works. If you're playing a Hammond clone with pedals and like it loud, you may also exceed that figure at certain points. You don't want to risk tripping a breaker on your battery or causing a brownout since that's gonna "stop the music", but the figures above are a good starting point. It looks like these EVs can run on the full international range of voltages (100 to 240) and the current draw is roughly proportional, i.e. it draws .8 amps at 100V to .5 amps at 240V. As the other posters here said, you multiply volts x amps to get the power in watts. That would equate to a range of 80 watts to 120 watts needed depending on what country you're in. EV doesn't list the exact current draw at the USA voltage of 116 (120? I'm never sure what the official spec is!), but you can extrapolate to maybe about .75 or .7 amps. That would be a "typical" or "1/8 power" requirement of around 90 watts. If you're playing solo piano, I would say a battery that can deliver at least 100 watts for the EV would be OK though I might want a few more in reserve. You have to take into account the power requirements of the keyboard too, if it's gonna use AC power from the battery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coker Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 If you"re going to be doing this a lot, does it make sense to get a small car battery or lawn mower battery and inverter? Quote CA93, MODX8, YC88, K8.2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Docbop Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 Here's a video from a PA company that needed a battery solution for small weddings so powered speaker, mixer, laptop for music, and it lasted about two hours on a charge. Looking on Amazon what he's talking about is @ $100. Here's the video I saw..... [video:youtube] Here's the link on Amazon.... Link: Power brick on Amazon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 Is that HALO Bolt 58830 the DJ video showed a reliable device over the months and years? A bunch of the comments under his video said it would not work for their speaker and he said "Thanks for the heads up." I have a EV SXa360 12" powered speaker (bi-amped separate 350W LF and 150W HF) Power Requirement 110-130 VAC, 50-60 Hz, 600 Watts Quote Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Find 850 of Harry's solo piano arrangements of standards and jazz tutorials at https://www.patreon.com/HarryLikas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 Power Requirement 110-130 VAC, 50-60 Hz, 600 Watts 600 watts is a lot to deliver from a battery + inverter. The newer PPAs with class-D amps use a lot less power. You might be out of luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajstan Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 Have you ruled out getting a rechargeable, battery-powered speaker, then a smaller inverter to power your keyboard(s) and/or sound source if they are not battery powered? It might be more reliable and convenient to go that route. Quote Nord Stage 3 HA88, Nord Stage 3 Compact, Casio CT-S1, Radial Key Largo, Westone AM Pro 30, Rolls PM55P, K&M 18880 + 18881, Bose S1 Pro, JBL 305p MKII, Zoom Q2n-4K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobadohshe Posted June 10, 2021 Author Share Posted June 10, 2021 Have you ruled out getting a rechargeable, battery-powered speaker, then a smaller inverter to power your keyboard(s) and/or sound source if they are not battery powered? It might be more reliable and convenient to go that route. Haven't ruled anything out, but I really like the sound of the EV. And I don't see myself doing this all that often. And if I don't have to spend more than I'm making on the gig that's a bonus. Quote Kawai C-60 Grand Piano : Hammond A-100 : Hammond SK2 : Yamaha CP4 : Yamaha Montage 7 : Moog Sub 37 My latest album: Funky organ, huge horn section https://bobbycressey.bandcamp.com/album/cali-native Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobadohshe Posted June 11, 2021 Author Share Posted June 11, 2021 Ready for TMI? Copied from EV's page with ZLX12 BT specs: Power Consumption 3 100 - 240 V~, 50 - 60 Hz, 0.8 - 0.5 A 3 Current rating is specified at â full output power. "1/8 full output power" is supposed to be a "real world" spec of what the average current draw would be in an audio amp. Current draw fluctuates with the signal being amplified. Program a synth sound that's a 60Hz sine wave and lean on the key for ten minutes with all volume controls at max... well, you'll probably be exceeding that "1/8 power" figure... but that's not how most program material works. If you're playing a Hammond clone with pedals and like it loud, you may also exceed that figure at certain points. You don't want to risk tripping a breaker on your battery or causing a brownout since that's gonna "stop the music", but the figures above are a good starting point. It looks like these EVs can run on the full international range of voltages (100 to 240) and the current draw is roughly proportional, i.e. it draws .8 amps at 100V to .5 amps at 240V. As the other posters here said, you multiply volts x amps to get the power in watts. That would equate to a range of 80 watts to 120 watts needed depending on what country you're in. EV doesn't list the exact current draw at the USA voltage of 116 (120? I'm never sure what the official spec is!), but you can extrapolate to maybe about .75 or .7 amps. That would be a "typical" or "1/8 power" requirement of around 90 watts. If you're playing solo piano, I would say a battery that can deliver at least 100 watts for the EV would be OK though I might want a few more in reserve. You have to take into account the power requirements of the keyboard too, if it's gonna use AC power from the battery. Great stuff, thanks Reezekeys. So I think for a 90-100W PA speaker and an 18W Yamaha CP4, I'll be golden for an hour hit with one of the options in the 300Wh range. Of course it might be nice to get something even beefier if I need to do a multi hour hit somewhere sometime.... Quote Kawai C-60 Grand Piano : Hammond A-100 : Hammond SK2 : Yamaha CP4 : Yamaha Montage 7 : Moog Sub 37 My latest album: Funky organ, huge horn section https://bobbycressey.bandcamp.com/album/cali-native Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted June 11, 2021 Share Posted June 11, 2021 Great stuff, thanks Reezekeys. So I think for a 90-100W PA speaker and an 18W Yamaha CP4, I'll be golden for an hour hit with one of the options in the 300Wh range. Of course it might be nice to get something even beefier if I need to do a multi hour hit somewhere sometime.... Ahhh... the "just in case" syndrome! Actually I think the "Watt-hour" and "maximum watts" are two different figures. One is a measure of the amount of time a battery can sustain its voltage vs current draw, and the other is a measure of the maximum amount of continuous current that the powerbank can provide at any one time. I'm not 100% clear on all this stuff myself, so please someone correct me if I'm wrong! Personally, if someone is going to hire me for a "multi-hour" gig, I think it's fair to have them responsible to provide power. For an outdoor wedding ceremony or cocktail hour though, having one of these powerbanks sounds like a good idea to me - those are the types of gigs where proximity to an AC outlet can sometimes be a problem and leave you either in direct sun or next to the buffet table. The 300-watter seems like a great sweet spot of price, shlepability and enough power to give you peace of mind. PS - I wanted to add that I would probably look for one that provides "pure" sine wave power, not "modified." As I understand, switched power supplies do OK with modified sine wave power but some audio devices may get buzzy. I have no direct experience however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou_NC Posted June 11, 2021 Share Posted June 11, 2021 If you have any doubts on how much power your equipment actually draws when operating under normal conditions, you can always buy (or borrow) one of these "Kill a Watt" devices to see what your equipment REALLY draws in use, then plan your power solution accordingly: https://www.amazon.com/P3-P4400-Electricity-Usage-Monitor/dp/B00009MDBU/ref=asc_df_B00009MDBU/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=167125429392&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9520429682556976790&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9009736&hvtargid=pla-306572288073&psc=1 Lou Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ITGITC Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 I wonder if you could rent something like this: Jackery Portable Power Station Explorer 1000 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B083KBKJ8Q/ref=emc_b_5_i Quote "Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent." - Victor Hugo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PianoManChuck Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 I've been using the DieHard AC power supply for a couple of years now. It has never failed me, and its now the power source that I've been recommending! [video:youtube] Quote PianoManChuck Authorized reseller: Casio, Dexibell, Kurzweil, Nord, iLoud, Viscount Keyboard Reviews + Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 That Sears inverter puts out a a modified sine wave, which may not be OK with some electronics. I would make sure of that before buying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUSSIEKEYS Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 I've been using the DieHard AC power supply for a couple of years now.] Thanks Chuck. I follow you and I've read many of your recommendations for battery power. Unfortunately they seem impossible to find in Aussie (understandably) plus our AC is not same rating so we simply can't order one so I look for what I can but have not stumbled yet onto a good thing. But I'm not in a hurry so have no need to expend cash recklessly. I enjoy your reviews and respect your recommendations. Many years ago when I first bought a Privia PX300 i started using my RC car nicad battery packs from my race cars (As racers we had numerous packs and the older ones we wouldn't use to race as they degraded so could be repurposed to the Privia) I had have heaps of them back in the 7.2volt 1200mah days that i could busk on a pack for an hour even though the PX300 was 12volts but the packs 7.2volts. And I could carry heaps of them with me if needed. But that was only powering the keyboard as i sung non miked. Later I bought a 12volt car jump starter when they were first introduced into Aussie that had a similar design to yours here but only simply 12 volts coming out. I could go for road trips in my panel van and on a road sleep over play my Privia without risking my cars battery. When I got the PX330 I hadnt busked that much so the need never came for this keyboard plus casio changed the plug so the loom I made never fit and I couldn't be bothered chasing a new plug. Recently I had a possible need for battery power of just the keyboard for an impending festival (but then didnt need to bother) but beforecthat I googled and found your older recommendations which would have served me but alas they were actually out of production i was ready to purchase. Your new recommendation is great but overkill for just powering a keyboard but now you have me casually looking for the all in one solution this offers. Having the ability to power everything is rather interesting. I had never thought about powering AC. But the size and weight goes up. But so does it's ability. What I wouldn't mind is finding first as a simple solution for just the 12 volt keyboard that is small as the initial power bricks you showed. There are plenty of power bricks but I feel few are honest on their specs so in buying "you takes your chances". Anyway of reviews yours actually help because you are using them in the real world. Thank you for your reviews. I like how you have that "nice bloke" personality which makes it easy to watch. And I have to say on this video you forgot your catch phrase I dont think you even know you have..it's "HOW COOL IS THAT" WHICH reminds me of a famous Aussies phrase of "DO YOURSELF A FAVOUR" the Aussies will know that phrase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PianoManChuck Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 Thanks for your kind words AussieKeys... much appreciated! You've pretty much summed it up with the AC Power Supplies - yes, they're heavier but with the increase in weight also comes an increase in capability/usefulness! You no longer have to worry about finding the right type of 'connector' or dealing with the proper type of polarity, etc. The DC bricks (if you can even find a decent one out there) will power one device, while the AC power supply will power as many as you like (as long as you keep it under the total wattage the power supply offers). Also, the heavier the AC power supply weighs, the better it is (that translates to a much more capable battery in terms of Watt Hours).... how cool is that Those RavPower DC units I recommended years ago were discontinued by RavPower.... I got sick of the entire DC power supply scene with the proper connectors, polarity, single-use, and finding it harder and harder to locate a decent unit (since RavPower stopped making them). Anyway, much success with your quest to find a proper unit for you. Cheers! Quote PianoManChuck Authorized reseller: Casio, Dexibell, Kurzweil, Nord, iLoud, Viscount Keyboard Reviews + Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUSSIEKEYS Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 Those RavPower DC units I recommended years ago were discontinued by RavPower.... I got sick of the entire DC power supply scene with the proper connectors, polarity, single-use, and finding it harder and harder to locate a decent unit (since RavPower stopped making them). Anyway, much success with your quest to find a proper unit for you. Cheers! Thanks mate yep the Ravpower (thats the one) was what I chased earlier this year for an upcoming festival and found they were long gone. Shame that and when I look at all the similar ones it's hard to tell. At the time there was a rush to find something but luckily I ended u0 not needing it so I stopped that mad search. So now I can take my time. I like the idea of having a small brick handy as a "just in case" scenario as I remember a gig before covid playing on a hay bale stage in a barn and with a single long power lead for the whole band where my Privia was out of key. (It wasnt the pitch bend causing it) I restarted the keyboard and it was fine but i can only figure it was dicky power causing as it never happened again. If i had a small brick there for an emergency that lasted longer then i could have used it. The idea of the Ravpower brick allows me to emulate what I did with those 7.2 RC car nicad packs decades ago but in a cleaner shop looking package. I could make my own packs up but they would always look handmade as I now would have to make larger 12 volt packs. Anyway your video showed me what to look for and if I casually find a similar device locally in a shop I can consider it. I may not buy off internet but in a shop if it doesn't act like it claims I can take it back more easily. "HOW COOL IS THAT." There you actually have me saying it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthaholic Posted June 14, 2021 Share Posted June 14, 2021 I know that Bobadohshe wasn"t looking for a generator recommendation, but if you decide to go that way, check out this A-iPower unit. https://www.costco.com/a-ipower-powered-by-yamaha-inverter-generator.product.100653776.html Yamaha engine, very quiet. I bought it last year as a second generator, for TV/Internet/lights/fans during hurricane season and I"ve used it a number of times around the yard so that it doesn"t just sit in the shed. I have some beachy gigs coming up myself, and one of them requires me to run 100+ feet of extension cords into their kitchen, so I"m just going to use this instead. Eight to nine hours on a gallon of gas is pretty good, too. These portable batteries seem nice but every battery loses life over time, some fairly rapidly. What if you"re in the middle of a gig and it dies? Quote The fact there's a Highway To Hell and only a Stairway To Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers People only say "It's a free country" when they're doing something shitty-Demetri Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted June 15, 2021 Share Posted June 15, 2021 That's a great price for an 1800W inverter generator. It might be overkill for a beach solo cocktail hour though! I definitely appreciate that link. We get a fair number of power outages at the house and have been thinking of getting a generator for those occasions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted June 15, 2021 Share Posted June 15, 2021 We get a fair number of power outages at the house and have been thinking of getting a generator for those occasions. Veering slightly OT here, but for a house power outage backup, I suggest getting something powered by propane rather than gasoline. You can keep a few propane cannisters at your house indefinitely, whereas gasoline "goes bad." The last thing you want went the storm hits and knocks out the power is to find that your gasoline is NG, and you can't get more because the same storm knocked out the power to the local gas station and their pumps aren't working. (Plus, keeping some tanks of propane at your house is safer than keeping jugs of gasoline.) Quote Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted June 15, 2021 Share Posted June 15, 2021 You're right, though I believe propane winds up being more expensive per Kwh â maybe double? Our outages tend to be pretty short duration. The longest was about a week, after hurricane Sandy in 2012. Other than that it's only been a few hours to a day. Some generators are dual-fuel too, so thanks for the suggestion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobadohshe Posted June 15, 2021 Author Share Posted June 15, 2021 I know that Bobadohshe wasn"t looking for a generator recommendation, but if you decide to go that way, check out this A-iPower unit. https://www.costco.com/a-ipower-powered-by-yamaha-inverter-generator.product.100653776.html Yamaha engine, very quiet. I bought it last year as a second generator, for TV/Internet/lights/fans during hurricane season and I"ve used it a number of times around the yard so that it doesn"t just sit in the shed. I have some beachy gigs coming up myself, and one of them requires me to run 100+ feet of extension cords into their kitchen, so I"m just going to use this instead. Eight to nine hours on a gallon of gas is pretty good, too. These portable batteries seem nice but every battery loses life over time, some fairly rapidly. What if you"re in the middle of a gig and it dies? I appreciate that Synthaholic. Since my initial post saying I didn't want a generator, I have heard lots of good things about these newer very quiet generators. I think I'd be open to it. I just scoped it out. I read and reread the specs, but couldn't see anything mentioning weight. - How much does that puppy weigh with a full tank? Since it's on the beach I won't be able to roll it, I'll have to carry it and plop it in place on a towel on the sand. Quote Kawai C-60 Grand Piano : Hammond A-100 : Hammond SK2 : Yamaha CP4 : Yamaha Montage 7 : Moog Sub 37 My latest album: Funky organ, huge horn section https://bobbycressey.bandcamp.com/album/cali-native Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted June 15, 2021 Share Posted June 15, 2021 I would be careful about the "very quiet" description because in my experience it's usually said in comparison to the noise level of a non-inverter generator, not as a general description. In my few stabs at researching these I've seen youtubes of campers and other amateur reviewers' videos showing them in operation. IMO, based on what I hear in these videos, I wouldn't want that sound in the background as I played a solo piano gig. Full band with drums is a different story â that would probably be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted June 15, 2021 Share Posted June 15, 2021 Looking at this page, seems like the smallest inverter generators are around 1000 watts and weigh around 30 lbs. For a solo gig at a beach, I'm going with one of those battery guys, but that's just me! https://generatoradvisor.com/smallest-portable-generator/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthaholic Posted June 15, 2021 Share Posted June 15, 2021 I know that Bobadohshe wasn"t looking for a generator recommendation, but if you decide to go that way, check out this A-iPower unit. https://www.costco.com/a-ipower-powered-by-yamaha-inverter-generator.product.100653776.html Yamaha engine, very quiet. I bought it last year as a second generator, for TV/Internet/lights/fans during hurricane season and I"ve used it a number of times around the yard so that it doesn"t just sit in the shed. I have some beachy gigs coming up myself, and one of them requires me to run 100+ feet of extension cords into their kitchen, so I"m just going to use this instead. Eight to nine hours on a gallon of gas is pretty good, too. These portable batteries seem nice but every battery loses life over time, some fairly rapidly. What if you"re in the middle of a gig and it dies? I appreciate that Synthaholic. Since my initial post saying I didn't want a generator, I have heard lots of good things about these newer very quiet generators. I think I'd be open to it. I just scoped it out. I read and reread the specs, but couldn't see anything mentioning weight. - How much does that puppy weigh with a full tank? Since it's on the beach I won't be able to roll it, I'll have to carry it and plop it in place on a towel on the sand. The manual says 22 kg, so 48.5 lb. And it holds 1.1 gallons of gas. But I think Reezekeys is right about the quiet part, at least for solo piano. Unless you can put it a ways away, run a long heavy-duty extension cord, and maybe block it. The beach gig I was going to use it for, I normally run a long cord to their noisy kitchen and now I'm going to put the generator down by the kitchen and all their other noisy air conditioning units. So it should all blend in. Lol! Quote The fact there's a Highway To Hell and only a Stairway To Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers People only say "It's a free country" when they're doing something shitty-Demetri Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobadohshe Posted June 17, 2021 Author Share Posted June 17, 2021 I would be careful about the "very quiet" description because in my experience it's usually said in comparison to the noise level of a non-inverter generator, not as a general description. In my few stabs at researching these I've seen youtubes of campers and other amateur reviewers' videos showing them in operation. IMO, based on what I hear in these videos, I wouldn't want that sound in the background as I played a solo piano gig. Full band with drums is a different story â that would probably be fine. This has been nagging in the back of my mind. I'm glad you bring it up. I will watch some videos and see if I can go check one out at Harbor Freight. Quote Kawai C-60 Grand Piano : Hammond A-100 : Hammond SK2 : Yamaha CP4 : Yamaha Montage 7 : Moog Sub 37 My latest album: Funky organ, huge horn section https://bobbycressey.bandcamp.com/album/cali-native Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PianoMan51 Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 You're right, though I believe propane winds up being more expensive per Kwh â maybe double? Our outages tend to be pretty short duration. The longest was about a week, after hurricane Sandy in 2012. Other than that it's only been a few hours to a day. Some generators are dual-fuel too, so thanks for the suggestion! Since we"re already OT on this, I went for a dual-fuel model. Propane/gas. But not for issues of using it, but for maintenance. The burden of having a back-up generator is that you need to run the engine regularly. With a propane tank always hooked up, battery start, and a trickle charger always on I can run the engine hot every few months without ever putting gas into the carburetor. Starts every time. No rope pulling. No emptying the gas tank, treating the gas or finding the ether spray. Making the maintenance care free makes it far more likely to be done regularly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 Excellent points and stuff you don't read on the mfr's websites! Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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