Kurzweil VAST experiences - 2021 Edition

[johnchop]

Layers are sort of akin to oscillators (with configurable DSP routing) but they can feed into other layers as well. That's where it gets hard to parse, as there's no full gozindas-gozoutas modular-like layout to visually sort through.

 

Which lead sound are you looking at?  I don't have a Forte but maybe someone here could walk you through it.

[Stokely]

Hey thanks for the reply.  I’m actually pretty happy with the lead sounds that I’m finding. I do need to make that one Styx lead for a couple tunes.  When I’ve done it on other keyboards it’s generally just setting one oscillator to a fifth higher than the others.  Gets in the ballpark at least.  
 

Where I struggle a bit is getting nice poly sounds.   It’s probably not considered the toughest sound to get but some thing like working for the weekend.  Basically a saw poly that I could use and tweak for a number of songs.  Happily there is at least one program that I think gets me pretty close that I heard when going through the forte not sure if it was one of Dave’s patches or not.  

Engaged in some drinking for Chinese new year at the moment so I’ll have to revisit this a bit later LOL

[Delaware Dave]

17 hours ago, Stokely said:

Engaged in some drinking for Chinese new year at the moment so I’ll have to revisit this a bit later LOL

 

At least you got your priorities in order

[MightyWhitey]

Hi People,

 

      I just bought a K2700 on December 1st from American Musical Supply, and it's my first foray into the mystical land of the Kurzweil dragon. I've done a fair amount of programming in my day, both for my self, and for hire, and on most major hardware platforms. There's two things I can honestly say about VAST: 1) I've never seen anything so seemingly comprehensive in it's abilities (and just so beautiful sounding out of the box), and 2) I've NEVER encountered anything as mind-boggling and unapproachable for me! I'm so torn because I bought this thing largely as a response to my Korg Kronos 2 becoming unreliable due to crashes. And now that Korg has stopped supporting them, and now seem committed to pushing utter shite like their Nautilus as a flagship workstation (the balls on them, asking almost $3k for something that doesn't have aftertouch), I found myself longing for something else that could give me sound design capabilities, flexibility, and controllability that approached what I could achieve in DAW land, without me always being tethered to a laptop. The K2700 seemed to tick those boxes on paper, despite me not having ANY meaningful experience with Kurzweil, or VAST. But now a month in, I'm pulling my hair out just trying to establish ANY kind of meaningful programming workflow, and making very little progress with it (or music, for that matter). If I was a stage piano preset jockey by nature, I'd probably be completely happy with this thing. I'm sure with time, I can conquer the learning curve. After all, I was able to tame the curve in Yamaha's shittily-conceived Motif engine paradigm (and now the Montage...UGH). But here's the $3000 +tax question: With about 13 days left on my "45 day money-back satisfaction guarantee," Do I commit fumbling around like John Carter on Mars, learning to walk all over again, or do I give this thing back with vague hope of landing on some other solution that's as comprehensive, but easier to make friends with? Shit, man.....I'd really love to keep this thing JUST for the sounds ALONE, let alone the attractive prospect of what I could possibly do with this thing if I could get down on it as fluently as I can on other machines. But I'm also getting discouraged that I can't yet put this thing on the streets like I'd hoped. Also, wedding season will be upon us in no-time, and I don't know if I have the time to figure out how to nail the patches off of records as quickly as I was able to on my Kronos! I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts on this.

[Stefan011]

I have never even entered the realms of VAST on my Kurzweil, but If You need anything, there is a wonderfull forum Mastering VAST. 

[Delaware Dave]

Purchase the mastering VAST book

 

https://forums.godlike.com.au/

 

VAST is arranged differently than other keyboards but conceptually the same as other keyboards in what it is controlling.  Once you understand the arrangement it is not that difficult.  I'll admit there are some things that I still don't completely understand but 95% of the time I know what it is that needs to be done.

[CyberGene]

I would never personally purchase any music instrument that requires a master’s degree in working with it. I felt the same way about the MODX which was worth it even for the patches alone but the engineer in me was bothered by the fact there’s deep engine underneath that I am not utilizing, yet is difficult to master. And I hear MODX compared to VAST is like understanding a toddlers book. I would never buy a workstation again. Each to their own. Replaced the MODX with a CP88 and a synth on top, that covers anything I need without having to spend ages learning about parts, elements, common, part common and all the BS. 

[ABECK]

I recently bought a 2700 and can certainly empathize with the architecture confusion (especially when trying to figure out the VA algorithms.)   But, the sound capabilities are vast (pun intended).  I would recommend sticking with it - the learning curve isn't that bad and there's some good Facebook groups that are helpful if you have questions).  Once you learn basic program layer edits and setting up your own multis, you will be in a good position to program for specific songs/gigs.  

To speed up creating multis, I recommend starting with 2044 "Split Default" or 2045 "Layer Default" as a starting point.

[Sean M. H.]

To MightyWhitey, just out of curiosity, what exactly are you looking to do on the K2700?  I say that because "programming" can mean different things depending on context.  Do you mean setting up elaborate splits and layers?  Programming VA sounds (or other sounds for that matter) from scratch?  Setting up FX routings, using the arpeggiators and Kurzweil's RIFF feature?  Also, what genre(s) will you be covering? 

 

Another reason I ask is because not all of these things are equally difficult/frustrating on the Kurzweil (I have a PC4).  For example, I find setting up complex Multis with various key ranges, velocity ranges etc, to be very straight-forward once you do it a couple times.  

 

If you are trying to go beyond that and start wrangling the various Algorithms and Functions that really make VAST what it is...yeah, that's a different animal.  I'd recommend checking out the various tutorial videos made for older Kurzweils as a way to get familiar with the way Kurzweil thinks and implements things.  There's a particularly good series that was done for the PC3, and most of it still applies to the PC4/K2700 (even if the specific button presses and interface are different).

 

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL850DF30D9F2377A2

[Delaware Dave]

Effects arrangement is different than other keyboards.  With other keyboards I can take an effect and change its parameters and save those effect parameters as part of the program.  With VAST all of the parameters are saved as a unique effect #.  If I have a chorus effect and changed a parameter value, then save the effect to an effect ID# then all programs using that effect ID# would behave identically; if I want to change a value of that particular program's effect parameter (increase the chorus speed as an example) then the effect should be changed as a new effect id#, if not then the changed parameter values are used in all programs using that effect id#.  That is different than most keyboards I've used in the past where i could take a chorus effect and change the individual parameters and save those parameters as part of the program or preset itself.  VAST doesn't work that way, if you want different parameters for the chorus effect, then you need multiple effect id#'s, each one having different parameters.  I find this approach convoluted and unnecessary because a year later I have 8 different chorus ID#s and I'm not sure which one has what parameter assignments without analyzing each effect id# and each one of the parameters to understand the differences between one chorus effect and another.  If I could just make the changes to the parameters and save it as part of the program/preset it would be alot easier; so the current VAST process basically forces you to create a unique effect chain ID# for each program.

[ABECK]

45 minutes ago, Delaware Dave said:

Effects arrangement is different than other keyboards.  With VAST all of the parameters are saved as a unique effect #.  If I have a chorus effect and changed a parameter value, then save the effect to an effect ID# then all programs using that effect ID# would behave identically; if I want to change a value of that particular program's effect parameter (increase the chorus speed as an example) then the effect should be changed as a new effect id#, if not then the changed parameter values are used in all programs using that effect id#.  

Agree - the whole idea of saving FX chains is counter to the way I've always worked.  Out of the box, there are so many chains available, it seems useless to search for existing chains rather than creating new ones for every program.  

[Iconoclast]

Unless you're just barely tweaking, I try to stay out of program edit mode. I understand enough about VAST to know that you really need a Phd in VAST to be in there. I've found I can get way farther/faster via other boards/vsts.

On the other hand, I think the Multi mode is really simple powerful and intuitive. So if they already got the sound/program in there, and I think the forte and k2700 has some ridiculous number of quality presets, it's great for that.  If it's something that I can just piece together multi's, it's great for that.

It's disappointing because I think VAST is incredibly powerful, and sounds great, and I love their keybeds. But, the layout and user interface is literally trapped in the 70's but with a nice color screen.  I mean...numbered addresses for effect blocks?

If VAST just had a more menu driven interface and got rid of all the numbers for objects that would go a long way to making it more usable. I still haven't tried the new editor but if that could possibly work I think that would be a pretty amazing leap forward too.

There's some guys here who can make it absolutely sing, but I don't have that kind of time available.

[timwat]

TL;DR - There's a Bo Tomlyn opportunity.

 

Longer version. I've owned K2500xs, K2600xs, PC361 - the latter two I still have. IMHO, the marvelous thing about Kurzweil was always the sheer depth of sound, since the '90s, and right out of the box. There was so much in the K's that sounded magnificent, playable, downright musical, true, sat well in a live mix, the whole shebang. It's no mistake they became staples in broadway pits and churches. 

 

And it was always true that VAST is a daunting beast. 

 

I've spent time in different seasons of life investing focus, attention, and that most precious commodity, TIME in learning technical systems throughout my life - it has been required of my career and pursuing competency. Somewhere along the way (I think it was during my time with the K2600, which I still own), I made the deliberate decision I wasn't going to spend any more time trying to learn VAST because, well, I wanted to play and write music, not learn VAST.

 

Certainly others will make a different decision - opportunity cost, time and eventual return on investment, so to speak. And there are certainly more technically proficient minds that may pick up VAST faster than me.  

 

While I am convinced VAST as a system contains a depth of possibilities and options that no other system I'm aware of rivals, I am also convinced the time that is required to become proficient is not a trivial investment.

 

Which, in an odd way, reminds me a little of Yamaha style FM synthesis and the DX7. So there's a Bo Tomlyn* opportunity, isn't there?

 

 

 

*For the young kids, back in the '90s the ubiquitous source of Digital Howser's version of Chuck Monte was the DX7 - and six operator FM was so difficult to program that most DX7 jockeys just settled for presets. Bo Tomlyn rode the cottage industry of DX7 presets-for-sale to great notoriety with regular ads in every Keyboard Mag. To gigging players of a certain vintage, Bo Knows DX7 was a gig saver.

 

[Al Coda]

17 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

you really need a Phd in VAST to be in there

 

I didn´t !

 

17 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

I still haven't tried the new editor but if that could possibly work I think that would be a pretty amazing leap forward too.

 

Well, that´s for you and when you believe in the editor.

I won´t !

There´s not a single fully and correctly working editor made by Soundtower for Kurz out there !

 

And for the newbie an editor doesn´t do more than avoiding menue diving.

As long someone doesn´t understand the architecture, he won´t understand the editor too, just because editors are a single screen solution of the UI only.

 

I didn´t learn VAST w/ my PC3 model by using the editor.

For me, it was easier to understand the machine using it´s display, it´s haptics and my ears.

 

The people want VAST, but want it simple,- that´s the real problem.

VAST isn´t simple and when someone wants a simpler machine, well ... look elsewhere.

 

 

A.C.