OT: I just got the vaccine. Ask me anything.

[MathOfInsects]

Depends. Who really knows what the long-term effects of having been saved from death by a life preserver are...?

Survival comes with a lot of painful pre-existing conditions.

 

Let's see. After vaccination, I'd think taxes and death would be pretty likely. Also probable are work, disagreements, heartbreak, pain, cancer, dementia and other things. Tack on warfare and global warning and those vaccines out to come with some pretty long disclaimers. Now on the flip side, by not getting vaccinated, you can be saved from all these things, and better yet, you can spare your friends and relatives too, especially if they haven't been vaccinated...

 

There's one important difference here that makes this analogy invalid - life preservers have been heavily tested and used for decades.

...a fact that no drowning person is going to give a whit about, since every possible scenario that might come out of an untested and unused life-preserver is better than the one immediately facing you without it.

 

Also, minor detail here: vaccines have also been tested and used for decades--centuries, in fact--and are statistically the single biggest reason life spans have increased from 30-odd years to 80-odd years. They've been used and tested longer than seatbelts and airbags--in fact, longer than cars and airplanes have existed. They have been used and tested for longer than alcohol has been known to work for sanitizing wounds, and longer than handwashing has been used in hospitals--by more than 100 years in that case.

 

Thinking we need to know the details of a technology that has been beyond proven before we, individually, will accept it, is hubris to the extreme.

 

Not a single person has died from the various COVID vaccines, out of the 1.3 billion given worldwide. Three and a quarter MILLION people have died from the virus it protects you from. If those numbers won't convince you, it's not the numbers you really care about.

 

Call someone in India and tell them how you'd really love to take the vaccine but gosh, you're just not sure what-all is in it, and it might be best to wait a few decades.

 

Sorry, I have no patience left for that self-indulgent lie. DB, feel free to pull this post down if it violates the spirit of tone we intend here.

[SamuelBLupowitz]

Depends. Who really knows what the long-term effects of having been saved from death by a life preserver are...?

Survival comes with a lot of painful pre-existing conditions.

 

Let's see. After vaccination, I'd think taxes and death would be pretty likely. Also probable are work, disagreements, heartbreak, pain, cancer, dementia and other things. Tack on warfare and global warning and those vaccines out to come with some pretty long disclaimers. Now on the flip side, by not getting vaccinated, you can be saved from all these things, and better yet, you can spare your friends and relatives too, especially if they haven't been vaccinated...

 

There's one important difference here that makes this analogy invalid - life preservers have been heavily tested and used for decades.

I don't know a lot of people still getting polio, but if it helps, if you flew your drone out to me while I was drowning, I'd grab onto it.

[Mighty Motif Max]

There's one important difference here that makes this analogy invalid - life preservers have been heavily tested and used for decades.

...a fact that no drowning person is going to give a whit about, since every possible scenario that might come out of an untested and unused life-preserver is better than the one immediately facing you without it.

 

Also, minor detail here: vaccines have also been tested and used for decades--centuries, in fact--and are statistically the single biggest reason life spans have increased from 30-odd years to 80-odd years. They've been used and tested longer than seatbelts and airbags--in fact, longer than cars and airplanes have existed. They have been used and tested for longer than alcohol has been known to work for sanitizing wounds, and longer than handwashing has been used in hospitals--by more than 100 years in that case.

 

This isn't about vaccines in general. Come on. I have virtually every other vaccine out there, and AS I SAID PREVIOUSLY I will be happy to take the AstraZeneca vaccine once it is approved here. Your stats are correct, just not for mRNA-based vaccines nor anything related to COVID-19. Regardless, this discussion isn't about most vaccines.

 

Thinking we need to know the details of a technology that has been beyond proven before we, individually, will accept it, is hubris to the extreme.

 

Not a single person has died from the various COVID vaccines, out of the 1.3 billion given worldwide. Three and a quarter MILLION people have died from the virus it protects you from. If those numbers won't convince you, it's not the numbers you really care about.

 

Are you sure about that? Let's look at some statistics.

 

As per the CDC's data through May 3rd, the VAERS system has received 4,178 reports of death within the US since December 14th, 2020. Now, to be clear, that is statistically insignificant out of 245 million + vaccinated people. Likewise, we don't know that every single one of those deaths was 100% caused by a given vaccine.

 

Remember when the AstraZeneca vaccine was paused in multiple EU countries? That was because of a number of people dying from a rare form of blood clot caused by the vaccine. This has also occurred in Canada, and one in Vietnam so far. I know of three reported deaths from the J&J vaccine here in the US, which was part of the reason it was also paused temporarily.

 

Are those huge numbers? No. Even taking adverse reactions into account you don't end up with more than a tenth of a percent in the US, so it's always statistically insignificant. But if you feel you should accuse me of lies because of my concern for the health and well-being of others both in regards to COVID and potential latent side effects, please don't do what you accuse me of doing. I don't appreciate it.

 

 

Call someone in India and tell them how you'd really love to take the vaccine but gosh, you're just not sure what-all is in it, and it might be best to wait a few decades.

 

Important thing to note - India has by and large had AstraZeneca through the COVAX system, they have just had a huge distribution and funding problem. So since that's the vaccine I plan on getting, that is really quite pointless.

 

Sorry, I have no patience left for that self-indulgent lie. DB, feel free to pull this post down if it violates the spirit of tone we intend here.

It's a lie until someone you know is seriously hurt by one of these. And as far as long-term goes, hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

[Mighty Motif Max]

For anyone interested in tracking reported deaths and reactions, I'd always suggest monitoring the US HHS VAERS system ("Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System"). This is what medical institutions use for reporting, as well as patients. This is how we discovered the J&J clotting issue. https://vaers.hhs.gov/

 

Remember, most of this stuff is still statistically insignificant at this time, so it's not like we're talking about 4-5% of those individuals that have been vaccinated or something. Just keep that in perspective.

[El Lobo]

And as far as long-term goes, hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

My plan for the worst was to get vaccinated so I don't die from Covid. I'm at high risk (age, diabetes, other health issues) so getting vaxxed was smart planning for the worst. My hope for the best is that I'll die from something else several years from now. At least, that's my plan. If it gets really bad, and I still have my wits about me, I'll take myself out, as other friends have done.

[MathOfInsects]

Are you sure about that? Let's look at some statistics

 

You posted numbers, but no context for what they mean, beyond confirmation bias. The system you are referring to is SELF-REPORTED. The numbers are not filtered against who might have died anyway, or who might have had blood clots from their birth control anyway (which will almost certainly turn out to be the case), or anything else of any actual use.

 

This is the exact game that I was referring to. People speaking with absolute confidence about stuff they have earned literally no right to feel confident about. Questions and fears are fine and natural. But the antidote to that is knowledge and information, not sifting for evidence that the sound we hear really is a monster in the closet.

 

These kinds of statements end up sowing doubt about a technology in order to justify a superstition. In the mean time, people keep dying.

 

It's a product of first-world privilege.

 

I don't understand when people started thinking that not knowing something, means that thing must be bad.

 

But I wish it would pause just long enough to get this actual, deadly, continuing scourge, behind us.

[MathOfInsects]

I'm going to back slowly out of this thread for a final time. It's got my blood pressure up, and I don't want to tussle with my keyboard brethren. This site has been my respite from the generalized tussling all around for the last year-plus. Goodwill and godspeed.

[bfields]

A VAERS entry doesn't mean much more than "thing X happened after a vaccination". Given that the US has administered hundreds of millions of doses by this point, many of the earliest ones in nursing homes, it's not terribly surprising that a few thousand people have died afterwards--it's going to happen sometimes by coincidence, and it makes sense to report those deaths to VAERS just in case.

 

The J&J vaccine pause came after 6 reports (one fatal). If there was really any possibility that thousands of deaths had been *caused* by vaccinations, they would have been halted so fast your head would spin.

 

https://www.politifact.com/article/2021/may/03/vaers-governments-vaccine-safety-database-critical/

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-vaers-deaths-idUSL1N2LV0NY

[Mighty Motif Max]

And as far as long-term goes, hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

My plan for the worst was to get vaccinated so I don't die from Covid. I'm at high risk (age, diabetes, other health issues) so getting vaxxed was smart planning for the worst. My hope for the best is that I'll die from something else several years from now. At least, that's my plan. If it gets really bad, and I still have my wits about me, I'll take myself out, as other friends have done.

That's fair. Everyone has their own choice and their own situation. I think that's where a lot of folks are at and it makes sense. I'm just not in that demographic so it's a different advantage/risk situation for each vaccine in my case, particularly since I'm at high risk for a severe reaction to the Pfizer and Moderna vaccinations now. Like I said I will be getting vaxxed, just with the AZ vaccine, which is my own health decision. Everyone makes their own.

 

My concern lies with the way that the vaccine rollout was publicized. Not everyone is going to take the time to read the fact sheets given out, or do much more than read a headline. That's why it bothers me when I see headlines that say things like "Why the COVID vaccinations are 100% safe and effective", when we don't have enough data to really prove either of those claims over a longer period of time, and really the available data on reactions would nullify the first statement. I.e. you get people who ignore the rare possibility of a reaction and don't make sure their family history is clear of reactions to components of vaccines, and then have a reaction, which then blows up in the news cycle, creating a bigger problem. All because they just presume that everything's always perfect. That's why I do consider the publicizing of the rollout to be unethical. That's not saying there's going to be large-scale issues down the road, but willfully keeping people ignorant isn't helping confidence in scientific advancement in the long run.

 

MOI, while I am guessing you won't read this, just in case...

Are you sure about that? Let's look at some statistics

 

You posted numbers, but no context for what they mean, beyond confirmation bias. The system you are referring to is SELF-REPORTED. The numbers are not filtered against who might have died anyway, or who might have had blood clots from their birth control anyway (which will almost certainly turn out to be the case), or anything else of any actual use.

 

This is the exact game that I was referring to. People speaking with absolute confidence about stuff they have earned literally no right to feel confident about. Questions and fears are fine and natural. But the antidote to that is knowledge and information, not sifting for evidence that the sound we hear really is a monster in the closet.

 

The US numbers I got were from here. This is what a person will find if they look to see what the CDC says about the various vaccinations and death: CDC Site: Selected Adverse Events Reported after COVID-19 Vaccination. While yes, VAERS is to a degree self-reported, take a look at this comment at the bottom of that section of the CDC page:

 

However, recent reports indicate a plausible causal relationship between the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine and a rare and serious adverse eventâblood clots with low plateletsâwhich has caused deaths. CDC and FDA will continue to investigate reports of adverse events, including deaths, reported to VAERS.

 

As far as birth control goes, yes, that is also a possible contributing factor in females impacted. However, with the AstraZeneca vaccine, I know that at least one man did die from clotting; it's unlikely he would have been using female birth control. He was in the news for a while actually https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-56675665. As I've said numerous times, I'm not saying that these issues are prevalent. I'm just saying that it's incorrect to say that there were zero deaths anywhere from a COVID vaccine. And I have every right to be confident about that, and even more so about reactions since my aunt's severe reaction to the Pfizer is continuing to worsen in severity three weeks from her first shot. Am I saying the world is ending? No way. I'm just saying that it's at best unintelligent to pretend that there aren't issues.

 

Note that I'm still getting that AZ vaccine - why? Because the rate of that issue is still tiny compared to COVID itself, and it's not as experimental in many ways. That's aside from the fact that I can literally no longer get an MRNA vaccine, at least not unless it can be determined which of the shared ingredients between the Pfizer and the Moderna caused my aunt's problems.

 

These kinds of statements end up sowing doubt about a technology in order to justify a superstition. In the mean time, people keep dying.

 

It's a product of first-world privilege.

 

I don't understand when people started thinking that not knowing something, means that thing must be bad.

 

I'm not sure I would call it superstition when it's not saying that something unknown must be bad. It's making sure that it isn't automatically assumed to be all good either. Humans make mistakes and that's just a fact. And it just has to be accepted that with a tight timeline like this that there is a higher risk of simply not knowing things, as we've seen re transmission after vaccination and re-infection. It's just what it is, and it does no good to be blind to that.

[Mighty Motif Max]

A VAERS entry doesn't mean much more than "thing X happened after a vaccination". Given that the US has administered hundreds of millions of doses by this point, many of the earliest ones in nursing homes, it's not terribly surprising that a few thousand people have died afterwards--it's going to happen sometimes by coincidence, and it makes sense to report those deaths to VAERS just in case.

 

The J&J vaccine pause came after 6 reports (one fatal). If there was really any possibility that thousands of deaths had been *caused* by vaccinations, they would have been halted so fast your head would spin.

 

https://www.politifact.com/article/2021/may/03/vaers-governments-vaccine-safety-database-critical/

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-vaers-deaths-idUSL1N2LV0NY

 

I was really more addressing the false claim that *not one person worldwide* died as a result of a COVID vaccination (which gives a false sense of security), rather than saying that for sure we have thousands and thousands of deaths. That would be the worst-case scenario, but yes, at least at this time it appears that won't be the case (which is a very good thing of course).

[zephonic]

Hollywood had it first

 

[video:youtube]

[Melving]

Correct. Not having a single fatality is a rather high bar for a vaccine. Cause of death in a senior is always open to interpretation. On the other end of that is some doc who's got a one in 6 million chance of being right if he writes down covid vaccine as cause of death on a certificate. In other news, there are lots of viewpoints on a place like this... Respect...

[Dr88s]

A vote for locking this thread.

 

I appreciate the original intent of it, at a time when vaccination was novel and uncommon.

 

But by now certainly everyone has developed their own view about it and there's likely nothing in this thread that will sway people one way or the other.

 

All I know is that the thread has veered very heavily into politicized debates and all sort of non-keyboard related stuff.

[Mighty Motif Max]

Hollywood had it first

 

[video:youtube]

 

What timing. This should go in Anderton's "Biggest Marketing Faux Pas" thread in SSS lol. It's always either Hollywood making movies about conspiracies or conspiracy theorists getting ideas from Hollywood!

[ProfD]

The forum rules prohibit politics and religion for the very same reason. People do not share the same views about any given subject.

 

H8ll, around here, the only thing we can agree on is that a Nord Lead solves every KB-related problem.

 

I doubt that posters intentionally derail a thread and/or veer into "political" territory.

 

Yet, it never ceases to amaze that it happens especially among the collective intelligence among my KC brethren.

 

We can do better.

[Stokely]

It's unfortunate that a disease and vaccines had to get political in the first place. If there was ever a topic to "come together" on, that would be it....it certainly doesn't give me much hope for society being able to handle other, perhaps even worse catastrophes. Though the science behind the mrna viruses certainly does provide some optimism.

[MAJUSCULE]

I haven't followed this thread much, but I'm finally on hold to book my first shot!

[Dr88s]

It's unfortunate that a disease and vaccines had to get political in the first place.

 

+1000

[Mike Warren]

I got my first dose of Pfizer yesterday. My only side effect so far is a bit of a sore arm this morning.

 

The good news is that my 5G reception has improved already, even though the antennas don't start growing until the second dose.

[El Lobo]

That soreness is due to the chip

[David Emm]

I got my second vaccine and the next morning, I'd grown a tail. My pants aren't engineered for it, but it sports a split mid-way up and the appendages are independent. My theremin has broader possibilities now. Looks like I'll have a new reason to try MPE, too.

[stoken6]

At the very least you can pitchbend while playing with two hands.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[wineandkeyz]

I got my second vaccine and the next morning, I'd grown a tail. My pants aren't engineered for it...

 

Maybe you could always wear them backwards?

[Stokely]

I just got my first shot......for shingles. I'd been putting it off for a few years like a fool, because from what I've heard, shingles is something you do NOT want.

 

I felt pretty bad the last couple days, on par with my second Pfizer covid shot. I hope that simply means I have a strong immune system (actually I don't tend to get sick from typical flus and colds...I have had cancer though so poor trade...)

[MAJUSCULE]

Second dose tomorrow. LFG.

[GovernorSilver]

I wasn't knocked out by my 2nd Pfizer shot. I took the advice to hydrate and keep the circulation going - I don't have a treadmill but I went on walks and stuff.

 

Good luck guys!