James New Review of Kawai ES110 "Stunning"

[Reezekeys]

Being able to control the amount of reverb, as well as the basic parameters like room size, is important to me; a simple wet/dry control is all I need. Apparently you have no control over this in the Kawai. I'm guessing their marketing dept. told the engineers to keep things simple. If I was looking for a DP, this model would be off my list. I did try their flagship DP (MP11 I think it was) when I visited Sweetwater a while back and was very much impressed. It sounded and felt great.

[RandyFF]

Given the small number of sounds and that they do have 1/4" outs, it's disappointing to me that they don't have line ins to help compensate with an ipad for more sounds.

With the P-125, you can play back audio from an iPad through the USB connection

 

If you want to use an ipad, Yamaha (and I think Roland too) have done it right--use the usb connections to both send midi and get the audio back in via one cable. At least that is what my MODX does, and it has a separate control for the volume. Basically then the MODX becomes a submixer for its own sounds and the IOS sounds. Not sure the P125 does it exactly like that, but it seems Yamaha is commited to supporting IOS instruments in a robust way. This is what I'd like to see in more instruments moving forward and actually now I need to research the P125 a bit more, as I find that a possible game-changer (again if it is done as well as on my MODX).

 

Cool, missed that. I love fast playing actions, so the nod goes to the Kawai, but not being able to use an iOS instrument that comes thru the keyboard speakers and outs, is a no-go. With only 19 sounds they've painted themselves into a small corner. Yes, with a mixer I could combine the two, but don't want the hassle. If I was to get one of these, which is pretty likely, the Yamaha gets my money.

[16251]

Being able to control the amount of reverb, as well as the basic parameters like room size, is important to me; a simple wet/dry control is all I need. Apparently you have no control over this in the Kawai. I'm guessing their marketing dept. told the engineers to keep things simple. If I was looking for a DP, this model would be off my list. I did try their flagship DP (MP11 I think it was) when I visited Sweetwater a while back and was very much impressed. It sounded and felt great.

 

Exactly! I'm guessing that if they put more control, dsp's, reverbs, etc. then people wouldn't buy the ES8, etc.

 

It's a trade off for me and if I ever gig jazz the ES110 is more than adequate and I think staying old school (Midi/stereo outputs,) makes it a quick controller. My Reface in combo with the Kawai in stereo is killing, if I don't say so myself.

[ElmerJFudd]

Related info - the ES-110 has 5 pin MIDI which is great. It has Bluetooth MIDI based on 4.1 which might be useful, I know version 5 is faster and has extended range. But it lacks USB MIDI which is unfortunate.

[Biggles]

In the review one of his comments is of a sudden and loud step change in volume as a key is pressed harder.

 

Anyone with an ES110 care to comment?

[AnotherScott]

In the review one of his comments is of a sudden and loud step change in volume as a key is pressed harder.

 

Anyone with an ES110 care to comment?

Unless I missed another reference, he only mentioned that in regard to the EP. He didn't appear to fully understand how velocity layer sampling works, and that in a sample with few velocity layers (which is what that EP seemed to have, especially at the bottom where he was mostly demonstrating this), EP is more prone to such noticeable jumps than AP is, because the EP changes timbre with velocity to a greater extent than AP typically does. Maybe Kawai could have velocity mapped the samples to reduce the perceived loudness difference as it approaches the kick-in point for the next velocity sample, but that big change in sonic character as it introduces the bark (much more noticeable than the change in volume) would remain, and really, I think that's what he's reacting to more than volume.

[Stokely]

My big thing is--will I gig with it? And if so, what is the weight I'm willing to deal with?

 

Ideally I'd just get something really nice for home and damn the weight...and with the thought that I might not gig again any time soon, that is a possibility!

 

I was pretty happy with my SL990 pro, I got about 23 years out of it (and I got it used!) So an action like that is my baseline. I freely admit that i may not know what I'm missing

 

I only got one short playthrough on the only MP11 that I've ever seen in person in a local store, and really enjoyed it. ES8, same thing. No way I'd gig with either one though due to weight.

 

I've seen cp4s and cp5s on guitar center used for pretty good deals, I might consider those for home use only.

[RandyFF]

Jazz+ already addressed the velocity layers:

 

I have played my ES110 for over 200 hours and the action is quiet. I have also played the ES110 at a nearby store and at a friend's place who also has one. All the actions are quiet.

The ES110 comes with a handy double-sided cue card diagram for every push key function for editing, so you don't have to dig into the manual. It's easy.

 

There is an easy fix to turn the jumpy Rhodes into a superb well-behaving clean tone Rhodes. Simply set the Touch Setting to Heavy and then it won't be jumpy. It's a great Rhodes sample. I don't know what Kawai was thinking to set the Rhodes touch setting so light as the default, it pings and barks too easily, you can't control it.

 

Also, turn off the spacy Vibrato Chorus Effect on the Rhodes. Then save it as a Registration. It's amazing to me that they could be so stupid in how they set the Rhodes in factory default.

 

Also, turn off speaker EQ for an overall cleaner and fatter sounding EQ. I like Studio Piano 2 for live soloing, I can play a more legato bebop line with it, it's less clunky than Piano 1, and has less stereo spread (it's more focused) and better clarity.

[Reezekeys]

Jazz+ already addressed the velocity layers:

 

There is an easy fix to turn the jumpy Rhodes into a superb well-behaving clean tone Rhodes. Simply set the Touch Setting to Heavy and then it won't be jumpy. It's a great Rhodes sample. I don't know what Kawai was thinking to set the Rhodes touch setting so light as the default, it pings and barks too easily, you can't control it.

 

Based on this part of James's review, it looks like the biggest jump in volume & timbre is between the soft & middle layer.

 

Setting the touch to heavy probably means you're on the soft layer most of the time so you don't hear the jump â it takes more velocity to make it to the louder layers. Correct me if I'm wrong. In my view that's more of a kludge than a solution to the issue â you're essentially playing a single layer EP most of the time.

 

It looks like the forum can't embed a youtube that skips to a specific time, so I'll just paste the link:

 

[Bill H.]

Does anyone (Jazz+?) know if velocity switching between layers is discernible in the acoustic pianos? Or how many layers are used? I was impressed when I read that this is an every note sampled piano, but couldn't find any further info. And sometimes when every note is sampled, corners are cut elsewhere (Roland SRX 11 from a few years ago, which I have).

[Radagast]

The irony is that, while Yamaha and Kawai are more likely to have more piano like actions, because they make acoustic pianos, they only have samples from their own pianos. In the case of Yamaha, that includes Bosendorfer. Adding something like a Dexibell SX7 would add sounds from more brands. If the ES-110 has a good USB setup, then, a person can add pianos from an iPad.

[AnotherScott]

In my view that's more of a kludge than a solution to the issue

I agree. Changing velocity response does not change the number of layers or the relative volume/tone changes between them, only how hard you have to hit to get to the different samples. When you DO cross a threshold, this setting will not change what you will hear, the best it can do is make the threshold changes appear at more comfortable places.

 

The problem will be most pronounced if the "meat" of where you play is right near a velocity transition point, as you will be jumping up and down between samples a lot, in this case presumably bringing in the bark too easily. The fact that changing the touch "moves" the bark transition to a more comfortable location within your physical dynamic range can certainly make it more playable, but the underlying problems of sample transitions still exist, you've simply moved the point where they occur so you won't play around them so often or at such inopportune times.

 

This also means that, even to the extent that this does address someone's problem, it may not address someone else's, who plays with a different touch. These touch settings are designed for adjusting to your individual touch, and a setting that solves the problem for someone may not solve it for someone else.

[uhoh7]

Trying to get good is all about immersion, obviously. James has been immersed in acoustic pianos and the storied world around them from a young age and certainly can play. But the price of immersion is time. Time you don't spend learning about other stuff.

 

So you get this remarkable contrast between his beautiful hand articulaton and utterly naive reviewing skills. Not that I could do better, LOL.

 

James is talking to and for the huge market that only wants a DP for practice and convenience.

 

The advantage is you don't loose practice time on sound and system design. The fairly common disadvantage is the "classically trained" posture towards all that stuff you didn't have time to learn about. There is a real danger of being self-isolated by musical snobbery.

 

Which is funny because there is no such thing as "classical training" as a system of learning, as anyone who has had more than one classical teacher should suspect. It's a long history of taste and design choices and pedogogs, where "technique" is something that has been developed in a long series of "addons", and their varied interpetations by living mortals.

 

Nevertheless focus is powerful and the dog eat dog world of classical performance has brought us some spectacular playing. As usual it breaks down when you attempt to explain it.

 

What I like about James is he is not on the payroll. He is not tiptoeing like everybody else, worried that a bad review will preclude getting samples in the mail. But like most young males he is implusive: watch his review of the Hammond at NAMM. He doesn't know enough to know how absurd making judgments in such a scenario really is, but it is interesting to watch his attention drawn to the organ.

 

At this rate he will get to filter cuttoff around 2025.

[Jazz+]

The Rhodes EP layer switching problem only occurs when the Touch is set to Normal, it's way too Light. The jumpiness occurs between the middle range samples (which has a very wide velocity range) and the very upper "ping/bark hyped samples" at the top of the velocity scale at around velocity 120-127 (estimated). There is smooth filter transitioning up to that high point range. Setting the Touch to Heavy acts like a low pass filter on the Velocity range, it limits the range to something like around 1-119 so that it doesn't jump into that exagerated upper range. I play the ES110 Rhodes a lot and I don't notice any annoying jumpiness when set to Heavy Touch. In my opinion, Heavy is like Normal for the ES110 Rhodes . It now behaves like my Scarbee, much like an authentic vintage clean tone Rhodes, also like my 1975 Suitcase 88.

[Jazz+]

Kawai ES110 Owner's Manual

There is no jumpiness in the acoustic pianos. They are implemented wonderfully.

 

The 19 sounds in order (plus 100 Drum Rhythms):

 

Concert Grand 1

Concert Grand 2

Studio Grand 1

Studio Grand 2

Mellow Grand

Modern Piano

Rock Piano

 

Classic E Piano (Rhodes)

60's E Piano (Wurlitzer)

Modern E Piano (DX7)

Jazz Organ

Church Organ

 

Slow Strings

String Ensemble

Wood Bass

Electric Bass (Fender Jazz)

Harpsichord

Vibraphone

[Jazz+]

Stu Harrison is a better reviewer and a better player, imo.

 

[video:youtube]

[The Piano Man]

Stu Harrison is a better reviewer and a better player, imo.

 

[video:youtube]

 

 

Agree. In fact, he"s probably the best online video reviewer of stage pianos.

[GuiliClayder]

Stu Harrison is a better reviewer and a better player, imo.

 

[video:youtube]

 

 

Agree. In fact, he"s probably the best online video reviewer of stage pianos.

 

JPS ranks the P125 and the ES110 the two best DP's in their price range. Stu Harrison called the action of the P125 '2-demensional'... Go figure !

They both agree on the ES110, though.

[Bill H.]

^ Listening over headphones, those pianos were not recorded from their lines out. It's next to impossible to get a good sound comparison with that video.

[Jazz+]

New video May 17th

[video:youtube]

[Jazz+]

 

With regards to the Casio, you won't notice it until you've played it for about an hour continuously. Over time it gets hard on the wrists, something that I've not experienced on any other keyboard. It's not just the weighting of the black keys, the bigger issue is the pivot point IMO. Combined it's something I wouldn't choose to play unless absolutely necessary. I have a slight issue with my left wrist from a severe break some years ago and the PX-S action makes it flare up like nothing I've ever felt. Heck, I can play ragtime on a heavy-action old upright for five hours straight with no breaks, but I can't play the PX-S for more than an hour before the burning in the wrists starts. I don't have carpal tunnel either.

 

Bingo

[Bill H.]

[video:youtube]

 

^Ok I just listened to that whole thing over headphones. Whew. Wow does that kid do a lot of talking, but at least he's recording the pianos from their lines out so you can really hear what they sound like.

 

Winner for me (from what I'm hearing on this video): P125. Easily. The main acoustic grand has that classic Yamaha DP sound - a nice even cool tone throughout with a bit of a steely bite that fits so well with everything I've done from praise to clubs. The Yamaha totally cleans up with it's secondary sounds - much better from top to bottom. It's Wurly is tons better - despite what the kid says. I did get a chuckle when he ID'ed the Kawai's Jazz Bass as guitar Bonus to the Yamaha for including a choir - I know it's cheesy, but it can be useful for some services.

 

So that's a personal thing - as is everything. So make your own decisions folks. As the kid said, for under a grand you can't go wrong with either. As for me, it may be time to replace the PX5s.

[AnotherScott]

The jump between the bark sound and the non-bark sound exists, as demonstrated in James' video (unless his unit was defective, or his velocity gradations in the bass were not as gradual as he presented them to be, both of which seem unlikely). All you're doing with your touch adjustment is requiring more physical force to get to that transition point, allowing you to more easily stay below that point. Someone who typically plays with a heavier touch may not have the experience you're having. The point is, an abrupt transition in the sample set doesn't change with your touch setting... instead, what you're modifying is your likelihood of triggering that transition (how often you'll trigger it, how hard you have to strike the key to trigger it). Though if most people indeed find the heavy setting to be the more playable one, yes, that would indicate some sub-optimal default velocity mapping on Kawai's part.

[Jazz+]

I like the Studio Grand 2 in the ES110 (#4), especially for soloing. James doesn't really even go there... I also like the vintage clean tone Rhodes (set to Heavy Touch) in the ES110, it behaves really well once the jumpiness is remedied. It is fuller and more detailed. I hate the 110 Rhodes when it's on its default Touch setting. The difference is shocking, you wouldn't think it could be such a radical improvement.

 

In terms of dynamic range, there is a huge difference between a P125 and a ES110. I also like the faster action.

[Bill H.]

In terms of dynamic range, there is a huge difference between a P125 and a ES110. I also like the faster action.

 

That's a good point. All we can do is listen, while you have actually compared the two side by side. And it does sound like the kid is getting more dynamics out of the ES110. It's textured keys and lighter action would probably make me prefer the Kawai's keybed over the Yamaha.

[ElmerJFudd]

It's funny, the ES-100 I found a little slow. When Kawai updated the ES-110 they addressed this. I'm not sure what they did, added a spring like on the CP4 or adjusted weight placement or something, I don't know. But it was an improvement.

[Mark Schmieder]

I found it horribly slow when I tried it recently, but it may not have had the updates. Unfortunately the lockdown happened a few days later, so I didn't have a chance to go to the Yamaha dealer while the Kawai experiences were fresh in my mind. I think I prefer the sounds in the Kawai regardless, but I absolutely have to have fast action and escapement; it's non-negotiable. I compose towards that need.

[Jazz+]

They redesigned the action, it's the fastest in it's class.

[Stokely]

At the risk of derailing--any thoughts on how the es110 compares action-wise with the Yamaha MOXF8? Reason I ask is that a buddy may be willing to make me a very good deal on his MOXF. It's only a good deal for me if I'm happy with it as a controller--I'm a bit dubious about the GHS action. I may try to take it home for a while id he's willing but I don't have a way of doing the same with the es110.

[ElmerJFudd]

They used the action from the P125 in the MOX8, GHS. It feels a little different in the new case with the vastly more capable sound engine.