Roland Zenology / Zenology Pro, rethinks cloud pricing

[MPN21]

6 hours ago, RABid said:

Don't confuse Zenology Pro and Roland Cloud Pro. Zenology Pro is a synth. The Cloud is the service with three levels, basic, pro and ultimate. Zenology can be purchased, or included in your Cloud subscription.

 Correct.   I would have signed  up for another year of Ultimate if Roland let you keep a lifetime key for Zenology Pro.  But, that's not the case.   Last year, for one year Ultimate $199, I got four plugins to keep for lifetime.   The four plugins would have been over $550.    So that was a pretty good deal.       

[AnotherScott]

7 hours ago, zephonic said:

My only two wishes are a dedicated aftertouch tab in the “keyboard section”, and MIDI channels!

 

It would be nice if it responded to MIDI Program Change, so you could select a sound from your keyboard without having to run it within some other host.

[Ibarch]

10 hours ago, David Emm said:

I'm curious... does anyone here lean into Zenology Pro seriously? With 4 partials, nice Bezier curve tools for envelopes (love those anywhere they appear) and a healthy mass of effects, its a good match for many other such synths. There's also the massive sound library. I prefer not to lean on the cloud so seriously, but the Pro model could most likely hold its own handsomely with anything but high-end specialty synths like modelers.

 

My question acknowledges each company having a basic sound you may or may not embrace. Roland's is juicy, m'kay? I just wonder how its gone for someone who went all-in early on. Roland is the first company to spread its IP across several platforms so vigorously. If you're one of those brave souls, how's it been going?

 

I am getting more and more into Zenology Pro.  My background is a keyboard player who stuck mainly to stage pianos. It was mainly around the acoustic and electric piano sounds with a few nice pad presets when feeling more adventurous. In the last 18 months I've been playing with an originals band that play indie pop and light rock style. We are developing our own sound that has some 90s/2000s influence such as Muse. We are only amateurs gigging weekends but having a lot of fun. 

Having always liked the Roland sound, I bought an RD-88 to replace my ancient RD-300sx. I wanted a single lightweight board with  88 note weighted keys and a good selection of sounds and this fitted the bill perfectly. At the time of purchase synthesis was something others did and I was purely on presets. Discovering Zenology Pro has begun a whole new journey for me. From discovering that [nearly] all the RD-88 sounds are in Zenology Pro and starting to tweak a few things, I am now diving fully in and slowly learning "proper" synthesis and building up my own sounds. Being able to download these straight into the RD-88 is brilliant.  I now have my safe space of a digital stage piano coupled with a powerful synth that is comparable to some of the best out there.  It includes a library of nearly 4000 base sounds, a lot being the classic Roland stuff I love,  a whole lot more brand new samples/waveforms and a stack of presets to launch from. Plus I can dive right in as far as I want to go and edit and create to my hearts content. Whilst I enjoy other synths including Omnisphere / Keyscape and a new toy - the mini Moog from Arturia, a recent birthday present for myself,  Zenology Pro has so much depth and unexplored territory, it more than suffices for my band on its own.  I don't see me using anything else in our sound palette in the near future. 

[Ibarch]

One other huge bonus of using Zenology Pro.  It has allowed me to create a virtual copy of my RD-88 keyboard on my PC.  Whilst Roland does not provide a virtual instrument  copy of the RD-88 or even a basic scene editor/librarian app (that would be too easy),  using Zenology Pro with a VST Host does the job.  I've found Steinberg's VST Live perfect for this. It has taken a little work but I now have my complete setlist re-created in VST Live.  I can do a full gig via any 61 note midi controller and my computer. All songs and patch changes are controllable via midi and pre-loaded for instant recall. Makes a much lighter backup rig than a 2nd RD-88!

[zephonic]

5 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

It would be nice if it responded to MIDI Program Change, so you could select a sound from your keyboard without having to run it within some other host.

For sure. A lot of newer VI’s don’t bother with any of that. I guess it doesn’t matter in a studio environment where you can just open another instance of the same instrument.

 

Most of them are not designed with live use in mind.

[ElmerJFudd]

5 hours ago, zephonic said:

For sure. A lot of newer VI’s don’t bother with any of that. I guess it doesn’t matter in a studio environment where you can just open another instance of the same instrument.

 

Most of them are not designed with live use in mind.

This would be a basic feature.  But I can imagine their mentality on Cloud software being for studio and their hardware for stage.  Do they REALLY want us to install Zenology Pro on a Rasberry Pi  (done) rather than get a Jupiter-Xm? 

[zephonic]

Well, the good news is that hosts like GP address all those issues. I think my most complex patch has like 10 different plugins layered and zoned across three splits and they’re all basically on MIDI channel 1! 
 

It’s almost condescending, GP treats both controllers and plugins as essentially dumb pieces of equipment, like: “nah, you sit in your corner and let us handle that.”

[ElmerJFudd]

31 minutes ago, zephonic said:

Well, the good news is that hosts like GP address all those issues. I think my most complex patch has like 10 different plugins layered and zoned across three splits and they’re all basically on MIDI channel 1! 
 

It’s almost condescending, GP treats both controllers and plugins as essentially dumb pieces of equipment, like: “nah, you sit in your corner and let us handle that.”

That’s why workstations are a harder sell.  
 

Unfortunately, that’s also why they don’t give us their best actions on controllers.  
 

I’m hoping the next gen of stage pianos and flag ship boards really have pianos on par with desktop software instruments. 

[RABid]

When VSTi's started coming with thousands of patches the old system of banks of 128 patches no longer works. MIDI hardware does not have a good way to address patch number 4924. Also, software frequently uses folders of patch classifications. Another system that does not blend well with MIDI hardware.

[MPN21]

11 hours ago, Ibarch said:

One other huge bonus of using Zenology Pro.  It has allowed me to create a virtual copy of my RD-88 keyboard on my PC.  Whilst Roland does not provide a virtual instrument  copy of the RD-88 or even a basic scene editor/librarian app (that would be too easy),  using Zenology Pro with a VST Host does the job.  I've found Steinberg's VST Live perfect for this. It has taken a little work but I now have my complete setlist re-created in VST Live.  I can do a full gig via any 61 note midi controller and my computer. All songs and patch changes are controllable via midi and pre-loaded for instant recall. Makes a much lighter backup rig than a 2nd RD-88!

Are you referring to sampling your RD-88?  If not, how do you export RD 88 sounds to Zenology Pro?

[zephonic]

43 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

That’s why workstations are a harder sell.  
 

Unfortunately, that’s also why they don’t give us their best actions on controllers.  
 

I’m hoping the next gen of stage pianos and flag ship boards really have pianos on par with desktop software instruments. 

 

What are you missing in the current crop of flagship boards from Yamaha/Roland/Korg? Which VI's are your point of reference?

 

I have no experience with Vienna piano libraries, supposedly the gold standard, but I've had the MODX8 internal piano side by side with the Ravenscroft and Keyscape pianos, and sonically it's not far behind. If anything, the soggy action is more of a detriment than anything else. 

 

I mean, I'd still pick Ravenscroft over MODX, but I can't say it's leagues ahead. To my ears, anyway.

[zephonic]

42 minutes ago, RABid said:

When VSTi's started coming with thousands of patches the old system of banks of 128 patches no longer works. MIDI hardware does not have a good way to address patch number 4924. Also, software frequently uses folders of patch classifications. Another system that does not blend well with MIDI hardware.

 

I think with MSB/LSB it could go up to 128x128 (16,384), but I take your point. 

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, RABid said:

When VSTi's started coming with thousands of patches the old system of banks of 128 patches no longer works. MIDI hardware does not have a good way to address patch number 4924. Also, software frequently uses folders of patch classifications. Another system that does not blend well with MIDI hardware.

Picking up from zephonic's comment, MIDI can address that many patches with no problem at all. (Fantom, Kronos, Montage all have thousands of patches, for example.)

 

As it is, if you have Roland Cloud, you still need (and they provide) SOME way to locate the patch you want. I'm not saying we need a way to search sounds via MIDI. What's missing is a way to look at that patch you've already found and see MSB/LSB/PC parameters you could use to subsequently call up that patch directly from your keyboard on demand. That process is equally useful regardless of whether your sound source has 128 patches, 1,280 patches, or 12,800 patches.

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, zephonic said:

 

What are you missing in the current crop of flagship boards from Yamaha/Roland/Korg? Which VI's are your point of reference?

 

I have no experience with Vienna piano libraries, supposedly the gold standard, but I've had the MODX8 internal piano side by side with the Ravenscroft and Keyscape pianos, and sonically it's not far behind. If anything, the soggy action is more of a detriment than anything else. 

 

I mean, I'd still pick Ravenscroft over MODX, but I can't say it's leagues ahead. To my ears, anyway.

Not important in band context…. solo piano.   Many software pianos provide longer samples unique to every key at more (dozens of) velocity layers.  More detail of the piano is captured in more samples from different mics and mic placements.  Release samples, staccato release samples, half pedal samples, una corda samples (Some of these are 100+gb of samples for one acoustic instrument, not 2-6gb of PCM data for every sound in the keyboard’s ROM or flash memory).   String and pedal resonance, sampled or modeled, is not withheld from certain price points as they are with hardware instruments which are always attempting to do the most with the least DSP, storage and ram.   And we can run the sound engines at higher sample and bit rates, reduce latency and increase polyphony as far as our chosen hardware is capable.  

[Ibarch]

10 hours ago, MPN21 said:

Are you referring to sampling your RD-88?  If not, how do you export RD 88 sounds to Zenology Pro?

No, there is no need to sample or export most sounds.  I'm not even sure whether sampling is supported.  

The RD-88's PR-B/C/D/E and CMN sound banks are already in Zenology Pro, labelled  PRST_B - PRST-F.  This is the vast majority of sounds (nearly 3,500).  If  I'm using these, I can edit as required in Zenology then export to a sound bank file (SVD) and import to the user banks in the RD-88. The main omission from Zenology Pro are the RD-88s supernatural sounds. They are not compatible with the Zen-Core sound engine that underlies Zenology.  

Additionally, there are some new sounds (500) added in v2 of Zenology Pro that are not currently available to the RD-88. Hopefully these will be made available to the RD-88 via a firmware update or (probably more likely) in an an EXZ expansion pack soon.  

[RABid]

10 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

Picking up from zephonic's comment, MIDI can address that many patches with no problem at all. (Fantom, Kronos, Montage all have thousands of patches, for example.)

 

As it is, if you have Roland Cloud, you still need (and they provide) SOME way to locate the patch you want. I'm not saying we need a way to search sounds via MIDI. What's missing is a way to look at that patch you've already found and see MSB/LSB/PC parameters you could use to subsequently call up that patch directly from your keyboard on demand. That process is equally useful regardless of whether your sound source has 128 patches, 1,280 patches, or 12,800 patches.

The problem is assignment and order. MIDI depends on a patch structure with numbered banks containing numbered patches. MIDI does not call up patch "Earth Shaker Bass 3" in folder "basses", it calls up bank 4 patch 35. When you create a new patch on hardware using the bank, patch number organization it goes where you place it and stays there. Making a new patch does not affect where the other patches are located. Software works differently. You put it in a named folder instead of a bank, and you name the patch using a character string, not a patch number. Patches may be alphabetical, ordered by date creation, etc... If you try to translate a folder system to the MIDI patch system by counting from the first folder, then counting from the first patch within that folder, just adding a patch to the folder structure will throw things off. A patch that is the 4th patch in a folder may be the 6th patch in that folder two days later. I don't know if the upcoming MIDI 2 spec allows for named patches and folders, but that would be necessary for MIDI to recall software patches. Right now about the best you can do is enable Next/Previous patch buttons.

[MPN21]

7 hours ago, Ibarch said:

No, there is no need to sample or export most sounds.  I'm not even sure whether sampling is supported.  

The RD-88's PR-B/C/D/E and CMN sound banks are already in Zenology Pro, labelled  PRST_B - PRST-F.  This is the vast majority of sounds (nearly 3,500).  If  I'm using these, I can edit as required in Zenology then export to a sound bank file (SVD) and import to the user banks in the RD-88. The main omission from Zenology Pro are the RD-88s supernatural sounds. They are not compatible with the Zen-Core sound engine that underlies Zenology.  

Additionally, there are some new sounds (500) added in v2 of Zenology Pro that are not currently available to the RD-88. Hopefully these will be made available to the RD-88 via a firmware update or (probably more likely) in an an EXZ expansion pack soon.  

Thanks for the detailed info.  Great that Z Pro has the majority of RD88 sounds already.  I'll get Z Pro.  Speaking of sampling, I have discoDSP Bliss, but it can only sample software instruments.  I read that  the upcoming version of Gig Performer will have a built-in Auto Sampler to sample both hardware and software.

https://community.gigperformer.com/t/feature-leak-gig-performers-very-own-auto-sampler/14924

 

[Fleer]

13 hours ago, Ibarch said:

No, there is no need to sample or export most sounds.  I'm not even sure whether sampling is supported.  

The RD-88's PR-B/C/D/E and CMN sound banks are already in Zenology Pro, labelled  PRST_B - PRST-F.  This is the vast majority of sounds (nearly 3,500).  If  I'm using these, I can edit as required in Zenology then export to a sound bank file (SVD) and import to the user banks in the RD-88. The main omission from Zenology Pro are the RD-88s supernatural sounds. They are not compatible with the Zen-Core sound engine that underlies Zenology.  

Additionally, there are some new sounds (500) added in v2 of Zenology Pro that are not currently available to the RD-88. Hopefully these will be made available to the RD-88 via a firmware update or (probably more likely) in an an EXZ expansion pack soon.  

Thank you very much for this detailed information regarding Zen Pro and the RD-88. Really appreciate. 

[AnotherScott]

14 hours ago, RABid said:

The problem is assignment and order. MIDI depends on a patch structure with numbered banks containing numbered patches. MIDI does not call up patch "Earth Shaker Bass 3" in folder "basses", it calls up bank 4 patch 35. When you create a new patch on hardware using the bank, patch number organization it goes where you place it and stays there. Making a new patch does not affect where the other patches are located.

 

The lack of available MIDI Program Change is just an implementation choice. The manufacturer could assign MIDI Program Changes to all their supplied sounds. As for the user-created patches you're talking about here, they could be assigned Program Changes as well, and there are a number of ways that could work that would not restrict your ability to store/organize your patches in a logical fashion. It's not like there are no VSTs with plenty of patches that do support MIDI Program Change. Sampletank and Omnisphere do, for example.

[johnchop]

After some waffling, I caved on the Play4Life offer. For me it’s worth it for keeping two synths, and the one-year trial of other content is just extra sauce. 

 

Love the System 8, so that’s one I’m keeping, and others pique my interest (JD800).

 

Whatever CPU issues I was experiencing seem to have resolved, and those plugins are no more hungry than other heavyweights I use.

[ElmerJFudd]

On 8/11/2023 at 11:15 PM, AnotherScott said:

 

The lack of available MIDI Program Change is just an implementation choice. The manufacturer could assign MIDI Program Changes to all their supplied sounds. As for the user-created patches you're talking about here, they could be assigned Program Changes as well, and there are a number of ways that could work that would not restrict your ability to store/organize your patches in a logical fashion. It's not like there are no VSTs with plenty of patches that do support MIDI Program Change. Sampletank and Omnisphere do, for example.

I wonder if their thinking on MIDI Program Change omission is related to just making it a tad more difficult to use an autosampler. 

While at the same time, making it less viable as a hardware replacement if installed standalone on a generic PC.  You really need a host.  

[Ibarch]

10 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

I wonder if their thinking on MIDI Program Change omission is related to just making it a tad more difficult to use an autosampler. 

While at the same time, making it less viable as a hardware replacement if installed standalone on a generic PC.  You really need a host.  

 

That's an interesting theory but not one that makes much sense to me. If Roland were the only show in town, then making your virtual instruments hard to use to prop up your hardware sales might be a thing. In reality, if the Roland virtual instruments don't work well, there is always Arturia, Korg, NI or a bucket full of other stuff to go and buy. It is possible Roland believe that their sound is so unique and so desirable, customers won't jump ship but that would be quite the gambit. 

 

I don't quite understand why Midi PC support is missing. It seems such an obvious feature. My best guess is that a product owner has got sucked into the marketing persona whirlpool and decided that Jed the EDM producer, their main persona, wouldn't use Midi so it isn't  important. I've seen this clueless behaviour and lack of real world understanding on many a software development project over the years. 

 

[zephonic]

I’m in a hotel in Europe and it looks like Roland has found a new growth market for their Zenology sub brand:

 

[Mighty Motif Max]

37 minutes ago, zephonic said:

I’m in a hotel in Europe and it looks like Roland has found a new growth market for their Zenology sub brand:

 

 

"Immerse your hands in true analog warmth, inspired by our Zenology Sinensis"...or is it synthesis?

[mcgoo]

On 1/10/2024 at 1:30 PM, Ibarch said:

 

I don't quite understand why Midi PC support is missing. It seems such an obvious feature. 

 

 

At least for me, it doesn't seem necessary anymore. In a studio environment, your Daw saves the sound you're using. If you need another sound, load another instance. In a live setting, a VST host like GP saves the patch in each setup. I don't miss having PC ability at all. 

[Ibarch]

3 hours ago, mcgoo said:

 

At least for me, it doesn't seem necessary anymore. In a studio environment, your Daw saves the sound you're using. If you need another sound, load another instance. In a live setting, a VST host like GP saves the patch in each setup. I don't miss having PC ability at all. 

 

In a way you are correct in that there are workarounds and other ways to manage things via a VST Host. It isn't a complete showstopper.

 

However, some people find the lack of functionality annoying. It prevents lots of different work flows. One simple example is when I'm looking through presets. I can use a foot pedal to load the next tone rather than having to fiddle with a mouse and computer keyboard. It's easy to map this on my Fantom but try and do the same in Zenology. 

 

Basic controls make using software simple and easy. Not providing them for no good reason is very frustrating. When working as a software developer I've spent countless hours in meetings where UI designers / project managers / bean counters  don't want to include basic navigation in applications because it doesn't look pretty, it may cost a day's more work and so on. It makes the software objectively worse. Keep that mindset going and it destroys the usability of software and has a major commercial impact. 

 

Midi PC has been around forever and should be part of every basic implementation. I shouldn't have to spend time programming VST hosts to compensate for its absence. 

[AnotherScott]

4 hours ago, mcgoo said:

In a live setting, a VST host like GP saves the patch in each setup.

Picking up from what Ibarch said... If you selected Zenology as your first (so at that point, only) VST, and you wanted to use it live, and it does what you want except you can't easily change patches, it's not ideal to tell the customer, "oh, you can fix that, just buy and learn how to use another $169 program, because we didn't implement Program Change."

 

Sure, GP does lots of other cool stuff for your $169, and there are other hosts that might do the trick at less cost... but you're still adding a bunch of installation/configuration and learning curve time, and possible troubleshooting complications, just because they left out the ability to change patches from your keyboard.

[mcgoo]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

Picking up from what Ibarch said... If you selected Zenology as your first (so at that point, only) VST, and you wanted to use it live, and it does what you want except you can't easily change patches, it's not ideal to tell the customer, "oh, you can fix that, just buy and learn how to use another $169 program, because we didn't implement Program Change."

 

Point taken. I hadn't considered someone who would only use a single VSTi with no host. I've been down the VST rabbit hole far too long, 😂.