Marzzz Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 OK, let's say money and size/weight is not an object, like you're Elton John and have roadies. What would you all consider the most realistic piano touch out there? Ok, there is one size consideration, it must be in the form of a keyboard that you can place on a standard keyboard stand, not one of those instruments that looks like an upright or mini-grand piano. Currently my personal favorite is the Kawai MP11SE, which I think has a smoother and less stiff touch then their otherwise excellent VPC1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElmerJFudd Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 The compact action type required for portable slab digitals is limiting. The Kawai actions are really good. Nord offers a Kawai action in their Nord Grand now. The Yamaha CP line competes with Kawai, the CP88 is the newest incarnation. It feels excellent. Roland has the RD2000 - the action on it is piano like. But I found it slower reacting than the CP88 and ES8. Kurzweil and Nord both use Fatar TP-40 variants on models like the Forte and Stage 3. Versatile, fast, and useable for lots of timbres and styles. Not my favorite for just pianos but would be thrilled to see it in a back line over many other things. If you didn"t need to carry it around - Yamaha Avant-Grande hands down. Kawai has a similar concept now on the Novus. I haven"t played the V-Piano in a long time. I can"t remember how that action compared to the others. Quote Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 It would have to be a real grand action put into its own box. I just moved a grand recently and one can just slip the entire action out the front. It still is going to weigh 50 lbs before you put the cabinet together. Hmmm, sounds like a project. Some day. Quote Moe --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drawback Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 I"ve heard some good things about the Kawai VPC1. Quote ____________________________________ Rod Here for the gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElmerJFudd Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 The Ravenscroft modified VPC-1 https://ravenworksdigital.com/product-category/all-products/ Quote Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drawback Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 The Ravenscroft modified VPC-1 https://ravenworksdigital.com/product-category/all-products/ Was looking for that! Thanks. Couldn"t recall if it was VI Labs, UVI or Kawai"s site Quote ____________________________________ Rod Here for the gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Motif Max Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 I don't actually like a lot of the grand and upright actions I've played. My favorite for a while has been the one on the Kawai ES8. I've not played an MP11 nor a VPC or any super-high-end grands (best I've played is a 7-foot Yamaha baby grand). Second to the ES8 is still the balanced hammer action on my Motif XF8 (which is my gig and home board); I'm not a fan of super-graded actions when I have to play tons of instrument parts other than piano. Third would be the Korg RH3 but I haven't played that for an extended period of time. But the ES8 is the best I've played on a portable board. It's supposed to be the same as in the MP7SE (which has controllers etc). Kawai ES8 - The photos show it on a furniture stand but it's a slab piano. Quote Yamaha: Motif XF8, MODX7, YS200, CVP-305, CLP-130, YPG-235, PSR-295, PSS-470 | Roland: Fantom 7, JV-1000 Kurzweil: PC3-76, PC4 (88) | Hammond: SK Pro 73 | Korg: Triton LE 76, N1R, X5DR | Emu: Proteus/1 | Casio: CT-370 | Novation: Launchkey 37 MK3 | Technics: WSA1R Former: Emu Proformance Plus & Mo'Phatt, Korg Krome 61, Roland Fantom XR & JV-1010, Yamaha MX61, Behringer CAT Assorted electric & acoustic guitars and electric basses | Roland TD-17 KVX | Alesis SamplePad Pro | Assorted organs, accordions, other instruments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 The Kawai MP11 I had here for a review I did for Keyboard mag in 2017 was incredible, feel-wise - one of the best keybeds I've ever played on an electronic instrument. I even really liked playing it when it was powered down. SO heavy to lift, though... dB Quote ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Professional Affiliations: Royer Labs • Music Player Network Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marzzz Posted January 2, 2020 Author Share Posted January 2, 2020 I have played both the VPC-1 and the MP11SE, and agree that the MP11SE is most like a good acoustic grand. I don't have room for something like the AvantGrand. Ideally, I would love to see a VPC-2 with the MP11's action. Will be checking out as many as I can find in Anaheim in a few weeks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamuelBLupowitz Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 OK, let's say money and size/weight is not an object, like you're Elton John and have roadies. This forum pointed out to me that Elton started using the Yamaha Disklavier on the road some years back, after many years of using various Roland, Technics, and Yamaha digitals. So he gets to play a full acoustic concert grand piano, and FOH gets to use pristine digital audio samples (or maybe modeling?) that the piano triggers. So it's the best (and heaviest, and most expensive) of all worlds. As of a few years ago, Billy Joel was still using a VPC-1 in a custom shell as a piano controller. I suppose since he's been transposing a lot of his tunes down for awhile (as in, the band has to learn the songs in a new key, but he's playing the same thing he always has), something like the Disklavier isn't an option. Quote Samuel B. Lupowitz Musician. Songwriter. Food Enthusiast. Bad Pun Aficionado. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LX88 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 Bang for the buck right now has to be the Yamaha CP5 on the used market. E bay has affected the price on these, and they are right up there as among the best. How well the CF sample compares to the current CFX is a matter of taste to some degree. The CP5 has probably my favorite Rhodes ( 1975) among anything that Yamaha has done. CP5 's come up on ebay and if you are lucky ( as I was) locally.The price is often a fraction of what they were new . The weight is an issue as far as gigging it, but I won't be doing that. I will be looking into the best software sample I can run with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Tonewheel Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 If money and weight are truly no consideration (and you don't want aftertouch), look at the Yamaha AvantGrand hybrid pianos. They have the same action as a Yamaha grand piano and have MIDI. https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/pianos/avantgrand/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoo schultz Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 This is a useful question broken down by weight: Under 300 pounds: one of the hybrid grands (Kawai, Yamaha, Roland) For context, each weighs about 2/3 the weight of a Hammond B3 Under 80 pounds: Kawai MP11SE or Kawai VPC-1 Under 50 pounds: tossup Kawai ES8, Kawai MP7SE, Yamaha P-515 Under 40 pounds: Yamaha CP4 Under 30 pounds: Kawai ES110 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Schmieder Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 Perhaps it is now worth adding the just-announced Roland A-88mkII to the mix? Quote Eugenio Upright, 60th Anniversary P-Bass, USA Geddy Lee J-Bass, Yamaha BBP35, D'angelico SS Bari, EXL1, Select Strat, 70th Anniversary Esquire, LP 57, Eastman T486, T64, Ibanez PM2, Hammond XK4, Moog Voyager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathanael_I Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 I think the Kawai MP-11SE is the instrument you seek. Interestingly, they have an even better action in their "home digital piano" lines - I think it is the CA98? Anyway, they don't put their best digital action in any of their "performer instruments". If you are going to use it on a stand (and not move it), there would be other options beside portable keyboards. I chose a Nord Grand for the live rig (Kawai action) and a Yamaha P-515 for the composing rig that never leaves the studio. I don't care for Fatar weighted actions, and personally have found the best actions come from the companies that make real pianos - Kawai and Yamaha. What you prefer will be personal, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 The Kawai CA98 and CA78 are perhaps the best digital actions, they call them the new "Grand Feel II" action. I played them yesterday alongside a CA58 (regular "Grand Feel"), MP11SE (regular "Grand Feel"), MP7SE (new "Responsive Hammer III"), Roland FP10, FP30, and a Kawai ES110. Quote Harry Likas was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Find 700 of Harry’s piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and jazz piano tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hardware Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 Always was impressed by MP Series. Action is always good but the software has to be optimized for that particular keybed to work, so they seem to always do their homework. I suggest t0 every)me though that doesn"t have a real piano in the house, find a community college nearby, or even a mall, go play 0nce month. Quote Magnus C350 + FMR RNP + Realistic Unisphere Mic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoo schultz Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 I think the Kawai MP-11SE is the instrument you seek. Interestingly, they have an even better action in their "home digital piano" lines - I think it is the CA98? Anyway, they don't put their best digital action in any of their "performer instruments". If you are going to use it on a stand (and not move it), there would be other options beside portable keyboards. Good point, the best action is heavy and the CA98 weighs almost as much as a hybrid, around 200 pounds (though costs less than half). The CA98 action could be the best action that's cheaper than a hybrid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Real MC Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 Glad to see that the stiff action of DPs is being addressed. As a lifelong piano player that has been a pet peeve of mine. I haven't explored too many DPs out there, but I really liked the Nord Piano 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 My position is that all the DP actions are too heavy or stiff and too slow. Quote Harry Likas was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Find 700 of Harry’s piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and jazz piano tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathanael_I Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 My position is that all the DP actions are too heavy or stiff and too slow. This is why I chose the Nord Grand. It is as light and quick as my Kawai RX-7. They key feel is very close. The keys also bottom more like an acoustic grand - there's no rubbery damping (like the P515). This means the keys are "noisy" if that is a concern. It is not to me wearing in-ear monitors. The RX-7 has a more abrupt stop than the Nord Grand, so there is some damping, but there isn't a "cushioned" feel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoo schultz Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 This is why I chose the Nord Grand. It is as light and quick as my Kawai RX-7. They key feel is very close. The keys also bottom more like an acoustic grand - there's no rubbery damping (like the P515). This means the keys are "noisy" if that is a concern. It is not to me wearing in-ear monitors. The RX-7 has a more abrupt stop than the Nord Grand, so there is some damping, but there isn't a "cushioned" feel. Some people think their tendinitis is caused or worsened by the sudden shock to tendons when the key hits bottom, so seek out DPs with a more cushioned feel (like the P-515 and Kawais). But acoustics usually have a more abrupt key stop than DPs, and tendinitis usually is relieved when playing acoustics. So, maybe the abrupt stop isn't the problem? Not sure, but I suspect a more important cause is the short distance to pivot in all DPs compared to acoustics. The shorter distance requires higher forces for the same volume when playing close to the fallboard. If you practice difficult classical pieces in many key signatures then a DP is always going to require more force, and more awkward force close to the fallboard, than practicing on an acoustic. It just seems intuitive to me that this is more likely to cause finger/wrist problems than an abrupt key stop. The Nord Grand is in the middle of the pack on the distance to pivot (around 20 cm, same as the Kawais). The DP with the longest apparent distance to pivot is the Yamaha CP4 (22 cm). I suspect the reason for the cushioned key stop in many of these boards is to prevent the force from breaking the subchassis. If the board is lightweight, it's partly due to a lightweight subchassis, which might be less durable and require more cushioning. My Roland RD700 has an abrupt key stop, and its subchassis has broken four times. Definitely psychologically, the rubbery cushioned stop feels mushy, while the harder stop feels good and satisfying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Schmieder Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 The Kawai CA99 is now listed at their site as upcoming, and the improvements in keybed and primary sounds are enough for me to hold out and also to skip the MP11SE option. https://kawaius.com/product/ca99/ It seems to be heavier yet also smaller. Quote Eugenio Upright, 60th Anniversary P-Bass, USA Geddy Lee J-Bass, Yamaha BBP35, D'angelico SS Bari, EXL1, Select Strat, 70th Anniversary Esquire, LP 57, Eastman T486, T64, Ibanez PM2, Hammond XK4, Moog Voyager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kawai James Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 The Kawai CA99 is now listed at their site as upcoming, and the improvements in keybed and primary sounds are enough for me to hold out and also to skip the MP11SE option. https://kawaius.com/product/ca99/ It seems to be heavier yet also smaller. Heavier and smaller than which model? The previous generation CA98? The CA99 is 7cm taller and a couple of kilos lighter than the CA98. https://www.kawai-global.com/product_comparison/detail.php?n=3632,3565&ct=36 Kind regards, James x Quote Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own. Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Schmieder Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 Oops, looks like I inverted the specs after printout (I had to copy/paste to Word in order to print, as printing from the website truncated everything). Quote Eugenio Upright, 60th Anniversary P-Bass, USA Geddy Lee J-Bass, Yamaha BBP35, D'angelico SS Bari, EXL1, Select Strat, 70th Anniversary Esquire, LP 57, Eastman T486, T64, Ibanez PM2, Hammond XK4, Moog Voyager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kawai James Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 Oops, looks like I inverted the specs after printout (I had to copy/paste to Word in order to print, as printing from the website truncated everything). Printing in Chrome appears to work fine here, although the content is spread over multiple pages, making the specs a little harder to read. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mHswTWYURffHLm66ru0P-Tfk5JN3yO0T Kind regards, James x Quote Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own. Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Schmieder Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 Thanks, I don't use Chrome as it's a mini-OS so I don't trust it to not affect resource-hungry desktop apps both at home and at work. But it seemed to have jumped to overwhelming majority of the user base when last I saw browser statistics a year or two ago. I got burnt bad as an alpha tester on macOS way back, having to rebuild my Mac from the ground up after running the pre-beta version. Anyway, now that I have properly sorted my printouts from copy/paste in Word, I will study and compare the specs during my train commute tonight. I'll also check the website from home and see if there's any audio yet; I'm very curious about the new e-piano and harpsichord sounds as I already felt they were better than what is in most other current keyboards. Quote Eugenio Upright, 60th Anniversary P-Bass, USA Geddy Lee J-Bass, Yamaha BBP35, D'angelico SS Bari, EXL1, Select Strat, 70th Anniversary Esquire, LP 57, Eastman T486, T64, Ibanez PM2, Hammond XK4, Moog Voyager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Schmieder Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 This seems like a serious upgrade. Hopefully the price increase won't be much more than $1000 to $1200. I'm curious about the new sound distribution system, which isn't yet gone into in much detail. I was quite impressed by the CA98 and was going to compare side-by-side with the latest Yamaha rev as I've only played them separately and a year apart. As I dislike ALL of the sounds on the Yamaha, I'm already biased towards the Kawai to start with. But improvements to the keybed and the sound distribution within the cabinet, would remove any lingering doubts. I notice the CA99 lists USB-based upgrades as a feature. Possibly it was available for the CA98 as well, but simply not listed. This seems to indicate an easier path to firmware updates; not sure if they were even available before as I haven't yet owned anything in the CA or MP series. Hmm, I see a CS11 at the site too, which looks similar to the CA99 but with a feature set closer to the CA98 (likely due to when it was released). The only pricing I seed is at Thomann, so I had to also look at their CA98 posting, which seems a bit lower than the CS11. I'll try to compare the specs line by line some other time; I'm not sure the CS11 is for the USA market or how the CS series is meant to differ from the CA series. Maybe slightly bulkier cabinetry? Thomann's prices are weird and unreal; probably shipping is $4000. :-) Quote Eugenio Upright, 60th Anniversary P-Bass, USA Geddy Lee J-Bass, Yamaha BBP35, D'angelico SS Bari, EXL1, Select Strat, 70th Anniversary Esquire, LP 57, Eastman T486, T64, Ibanez PM2, Hammond XK4, Moog Voyager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Schmieder Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 From one review on-line: Uniquely, with the CS11 (and closely related CA97), Kawai have given this heart to their flagship digital pianos with a Soundboard Speaker System which uses a transducer to channel sound energy onto a wooden soundboard, bringing an organic quality to the tone. In partnership with the six-speaker configuration, this makes playing the CS11 an especially involving experience. To house this soundboard, the Kawai CS11 has a classic upright piano cabinet, which provides even better positioning for the other speakers than on the CS8, and adds to the authenticity of the overall experience. The pedals and hinges come in a brushed silver finish, adding an elegant contemporary touch to the piano. The CS11 shares its other features with the CS8, including the three premium grand piano samples, and the full wooden-key Grand Feel II action and Grand Feel pedal system. Like its sibling, Kawai's CS11 offers comprehensive personal control over a wide range of touch and tone elements using the Virtual Technician feature. The flexible USB recording functions embrace MP3 and WAV file formats â the former for smaller, easy-to-share files, and the latter for larger files offering the very best quality. The CS11 has the quality and flexibility to suit the most advanced players but also to inspire beginners and beautifully combines piano-making tradition with cutting-edge digital technology. Quote Eugenio Upright, 60th Anniversary P-Bass, USA Geddy Lee J-Bass, Yamaha BBP35, D'angelico SS Bari, EXL1, Select Strat, 70th Anniversary Esquire, LP 57, Eastman T486, T64, Ibanez PM2, Hammond XK4, Moog Voyager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kawai James Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 Hello Mark, This is getting away from the original topic of the thread, but to respond to your comments/queries: I notice the CA99 lists USB-based upgrades as a feature. May I ask which webpage you are referring to, please? Hmm, I see a CS11 at the site too, which looks similar to the CA99 but with a feature set closer to the CA98 (likely due to when it was released). The CS11 is essentially the CA97 (so one generation before the CA98) in an black/white polish upright piano cabinet. The new upright piano cabinet design of the CA99 will also be available in black polish, with the CS11 being discontinued shortly. Both the CS8 and CS11 were sold in the US, however are no longer in production and will therefore be harder to find in dealers stores. Kind regards, James x Quote Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own. Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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