Five years later: a VR-09 appreciation thread

[Josh Paxton]

Once upon a time I found myself in need of a single, all-in-one, compact, super-lightweight board that would be good enough to get me through a gig, while not breaking my heart or bankrupting me if some idiot spilled a drink on it.

 

Enter the VR-09. It was my slumming board; my The gig pays how much? All right, Ill show up, but dont expect miracles board; the board I took to gigs where getting there as late as possible and getting back out the door again as soon as possible were higher priorities than making good music; the board I had absolutely no attachment to, and assumed I would sell off for whatever pittance I could get for it as soon as my immediate need for it had passed.

 

Now its over five years later, and as I was packing for a gig the other night, I realized it has probably been my most-used board in that time.

 

It turns out there are just a lot of situations in which its the optimal solution, either alone or (especially) as part of a larger setup. When you have a rig that does everything you need except for that one thing, the VR is very often the perfect complement. Its VA engine remains genuinely impressive, especially with its programmability with the iPad editor. And while none of the rest of the sounds are top-shelf, they all end up being way more usable than youd expect them to be. The drawbars and quality of the organ engine set it head and shoulders above comparable offerings from other companies; sure, its no Crumar or KeyB, but its no rompler organ either. The APs, EPs and other sampled sounds might not rock your world, but neither will they make you sigh. Ditto the keybed. The interface is intuitive. The presets are solidly useful with little filler. The audio input keeps it from having to eat up another channel. The build quality has survived being tossed around for five years with zero issues. And the wall-wart connection is solid enough that even THIS group wouldnt bitch about it. (Okay, who am I kidding, of course they would. But they shouldnt.)

 

Does it have its annoying quirks? Sure. Navigating saved favorites can be cumbersome. The effects arent as flexible as they should be (like independent control of tremolo rate and amount). The constantly-flashing tempo indicator is irritating. But for everything it does offer, those are things that, it turns out, Im willing to forgive remarkably often.

 

If theres been anything thats come out since then that does that much, that well, for that little money and that little back strain, Im not aware of it.

[MathOfInsects]

For me, the trade-off between "does a lot of things pretty OK" and "doesn't do anything quite how I really want" made its most attractive features--the price point, weight, and really-pretty-good-sounding organ and select EPs--less attractive to me over time. It did serve as a gateway drug to my returning to a one-board rig, so not all bad. I hear the 730 addresses some of my complaints, most of all the cheap-ass action.

 

Contrast with the NS3 Compact, your nemesis, which does everything the way I want it done, but has a dumb-ass split-point quirk and not-completely-programmable pitch-bend, and the extra $ to invert the equation seems eminently worth it.

[Josh Paxton]

I wouldn't describe Nord as my "nemesis" so much as "the ex I've finally stopped getting back together with and then breaking up again, because I've finally figured out that she's never going to change." I'm curious though, does the NS3 let you run the organ through the Leslie sim and an EP through an amp sim simultaneously? I think that was my final "adding insult to injury" breaking point with the last Electro I tried.

[3rdAct]

Yes, I don't like that about the Electro either, but the Stage 3 has the rotary speaker and amp sim separate, so you can use both.

 

Organ section

 

Effects section

[MathOfInsects]

I wouldn't describe Nord as my "nemesis" so much as "the ex I've finally stopped getting back together with and then breaking up again, because I've finally figured out that she's never going to change." I'm curious though, does the NS3 let you run the organ through the Leslie sim and an EP through an amp sim simultaneously? I think that was my final "adding insult to injury" breaking point with the last Electro I tried.

 

Yes, the NS3 allows this.

 

It is a far more versatile board than the Electro, and is the board for which I swapped out my Electro 5D. For what I do, where I need easy access to who knows what sound next, plus a playable organ, plus a nice-ass synth engine, plus reliable adjustments in real-time on the fly, it's my dream girl.

[AnotherScott]

Contrast with the NS3 Compact, your nemesis, which does everything the way I want it done, but has a dumb-ass split-point quirk and not-completely-programmable pitch-bend

Programmable pitch bend was added in OS 2.0.

 

I'm curious though, does the NS3 let you run the organ through the Leslie sim and an EP through an amp sim simultaneously? I think that was my final "adding insult to injury" breaking point with the last Electro I tried.

As mentioned the NS3 does this, the Electro 5 and 6 do not... but they get around it a bit by virtue of having some EP sample sets that were recorded through an amp, so if you use those, you can still get the sound of an EP going through an amp even though you can't use the amp sim when also using the rotary sim.

 

Though, IIRC, you can't run the VR09 organ through its Leslie sim and an EP through an amp sim simultaneously ether, right?

 

I did have a VR09 for a short time, thinking I'd use it much as you described in your OP, but ultimately, I felt I just ran into too many brick walls, so I ended up returning it. But yeah, for a cheap, light organ + VA synth with the other bread and butter sounds you're likely to need, I can still see it being the best board for the job. Other contenders that beat it somewhere will fall behind somewhere else. Casio XW-P1/MZ-X500 are weaker on organ (although more conducive for adding a Vent); Kurzweil Artis 7 is 28 lbs and pricier. And all will require a bit more learning/prep than the VR if you want to grab (and split/layer and adjust) sounds on the fly. (I suppose I could add Numa Compact 2X to the list, but despite the specs, I have a hard time taking it seriously as any semblance of a VA synth when it has no mono mode or portamento.)

[jeffincltnc]

I have the same sentiment about my FA-07. It gets a lot of use for the same situations.

 

I have owned a number of Roland keyboards, mostly because they strike a good balance of features, good sound at a reasonable price. It doesn't mean it tops any particular category for me, but, like you said, this is why I have my FA-07.

[MathOfInsects]

Programmable pitch bend was added in OS 2.0.

 

Indeed, but not for all sounds. Hence, not completely programmable.

 

I dont understand why they stick to the fixed split points. They have to know this appeals to zero of their users. I keep holding out hope they will come to their senses on that one...

[allan_evett]

Yes, I don't like that about the Electro either, but the Stage 3 has the rotary speaker and amp sim separate, so you can use both.

 

Organ section

 

Effects section

 

This is one example of why I chose to go with an NS3, versus a VR-730 (essentially a VR-09b with 73 keys..). I needed more flexible split and sound/FX routings than the VR series offers. That said, I still like the VR's synth engine a little more than that of the Stage 3; and the iPad-based editor is great.

 

I switched church gigs late last fall, and learned that a VR-09 was one of the keyboards provided. After updating the OS to current spec, I'm now in the process of setting up a few go-to Programs and Registrations. This is one of most practical, bang-for-the-buck instruments that Roland has produced.

[WesG]

I'm currently celebrating the fact that I'm finally able to live without the VR09! It was the strings and synths in my Classic Rock rig for the last 3-4 years, because the CP4 sucked so bad in that regard.

 

Now I'm using an RD-800 to cover both duties. The VR-09 is still a bit easier to program, but the RD-800 is far more powerful than the VR09 and CP4 put together.

 

Except for bells. Goddam it. I can't get my "Born To Run" performance right.

[Doerfler]

Except for bells. Goddam it. I can't get my "Born To Run" performance right.

 

Right. Instead of "More Cowbell", you need "More Glockenspiel".

[Josh Paxton]

IIRC, you can't run the VR09 organ through its Leslie sim and an EP through an amp sim simultaneously ether, right?

 

Correct. I'm just more willing to swallow that pill with a $900 board than a $2200 one.

[Adan]

Most do-it-all keyboards under $2,000 fail miserably at organ. The VR09 is passably good, and way better than its competitors. I think that's been the key to its success, and I'd like to see more companies try to follow in those footsteps.

[BbAltered]

Like the OP, I got the VR-09 because I needed a small easily portable one-board gigging solution.

 

In the VR-09, I found usable APs, EPs, clavs, and Hammond sounds, along with a bunch of preset locations to quickly access those sounds. I also occasionally enjoyed doing synth leads with the VR-09.

 

But I hated the feel and action of the keyboard. I got a chance to try out a Nord Electro at a music store, found the keyboard feel and action much more to my liking, and decided to buy a NE and get rid of my VR-09.

 

Myself: I like the keybed better on the NE (and I like having a one-board gig solution with 76 keys): I play better on that keyboard than on a VR-09. I like the Hammond sounds better on the NE; I think the APs are about the same. I think the VR-09 has better and more varied EPs, better clav sounds, and better lead synth stuff (and also has pitch and mod wheels to make those synth sounds come alive). The VR-09 also beats the NE in having more easily accessible preset locations: it is a bit more difficult for me to quickly get to the sounds I want on the NE.

 

All in all, I am happy switching from a VR-09 to a NE. There are certain things I miss about the VR-09, but I feel the trade-offs work well for me.

 

These days, I gig with my NE almost exclusively. Sure: I would prefer a piano feel of an 88-note controller, and the Hammond sounds from a dedicated clone. But most gigs I do do not logistically lend themselves to a large complicated key rig. I alone set up and break down my rig, so simple is better for me. The VR-09 is for me a true one-board solution: and for me the NE is a better one-board solution.

[jimkost2002]

I wouldn't describe Nord as my "nemesis" so much as "the ex I've finally stopped getting back together with and then breaking up again, because I've finally figured out that she's never going to change."

 

THIS is how Ive come to feel about Nords in my heart of hearts!

Thanks, Josh!

[Outkaster]

Josh I never got the VR09 myself. My buddy has one at the practice space but it feels and looks cheap. Really it doesn't sound that great and I am surprised at the mileage it gets around here even causing a couple to get banned from the forum. I get the all one keyboard concept but I personally I think something always will suffer that's why I don't have a Nord myself. No manufacturer does everything well despite what people think.

[WesG]

Jason, my VR09 is going to keep up rehearsal duty! It's by far the best fake organ I own, it's really quite playable, and much less work to move up and down stairs than an organ.

 

The pianos aren't great, but they are fine for a rehearsal. The biggest problem with the pianos is not actually the sounds, but the action. The VR730 fixes this, though. The action doesn't let you play expressively, which is so key for good piano tone...every note comes out as fortissimo when I play unless I am super careful and/or monitor really loud.

 

And like I've said..the damn synths, strings, brass in that thing are really quite good. As good as anything else I've ever played. (Which admittedly, isn't much, I'm a piano/organ guy)

 

Next time you're up, we should go to Long & McQuade, they have a VR730 on demo that might tickle your fancy...and we should bring a set of cans so we don't get stuck listening through cheap amplification. If I can ever get my budget under control, I may just buy one.

 

[Outkaster]

OK sounds like a plan. I haven't found one locally yet Wes.

[3rdAct]

I get the all one keyboard concept but I personally I think something always will suffer that's why I don't have a Nord myself. No manufacturer does everything well despite what people think.

I don't know how many people think any one manufacturer does everything well. But it seems that someone who chooses to go with one board typically does so only because of convenience, and recognizes that some (many?) things will suffer. All we can do is choose among the trade offs available.

[MathOfInsects]

I get the all one keyboard concept but I personally I think something always will suffer that's why I don't have a Nord myself. No manufacturer does everything well despite what people think.

 

I think the question is more, can you do with one particular board things you would otherwise need 2 for. If so--or at least, if you can get close--then the trade-off is between hauling two boards and dealing with the additional line and sound implications, and a compromise on a particular feature here and there.

 

Speaking only for myself, I have tried very hard, multiple times, to add a second board to my NS3 Compact rig, and I can never find a reason to do it. Anything I don't get from that board, hasn't been worth adding a second board for. I keep trying....

 

I did play a gig on someone else's gear a couple of weeks ago (really, my NS3 on top and his Yamaha P-something on the bottom), and yeah, it was fun to be able to drop down and play the piano songs on a piano and reach up for the organ, like the old days. But not so fun that I was tempted to add a weighted board back in to the mix.

 

I have a one-trip rig that sounds great and does everything I want, uses a small footprint, and can set up and break down in less than five minutes. That's a best-case-scenario for me.

[Outkaster]

For me to put a best foot forward I have to use the best tool for the job and if it means carrying two boards I'll do it. I don't care if the audience can't tell, I can and that is important to me as a player. Especially for Hammond sounds. I won't sacrifice that for anything. As far as people thinking one board does everything... well it's true. I have seen on this forum for ten years.

[EscapeRocks]

My very favorite quirk of the VR-09 I found by accident the first time I brought it to a gig.

 

I went to do a smear, and almost launched it at my bass player

 

The bottom is VERY slick, and even with the rubber pads on my stand, it wanted to exit stage right. During our set break I gaff taped it down....

 

Since then I have add some black shelf line to the bottom of the board. It stays in place now on the occasions I bring it out.

[Adan]

I don't know Josh (the OP) personally, but I've known an number of other busy New Orleans musicians. They are often running around like maniacs, not infrequently doing multiple gigs a day. And of course New Orleans isn't the only place where that happens. I suppose if you're a trumpet player you can bring your best rig everywhere, but a keyboard player has to be more practical.

 

The VR09 isn't just cheaper than a Nord Stage Compact, it's also half the weight, which matters a lot in a daily grind.

 

My thing, when I had a VF09, was I could strap it horizontally on back of my motorcycle. The moto wasn't just for fun, it was essential for getting through Bay Area traffic. The logistics of that operation can be tricky. An 11 lb keyboard is more feasible than 22 lbs.

[AnotherScott]

Programmable pitch bend was added in OS 2.0.

Indeed, but not for all sounds. Hence, not completely programmable.

Okay, but for all the synth sounds. The need for it on piano/organ sounds is kind of minimal anyway, no?

 

Most do-it-all keyboards under $2,000 fail miserably at organ. The VR09 is passably good, and way better than its competitors.

Well, certainly under $1,000. Under $2k, I think you have reasonable competition from Kurzweil Artis 7, Vox Continental, and while perhaps stretching to the edge of a definition of an all-in-one (very limited synth functionality), Hammond SK1 (though the SK1 does have good facilities for integrating additional sounds from an iPhone or whatever, which the Vox and VR09 do not).

 

Closer to a more VR-09ish price range would be the Casio MZ-X300/500, which are extremely versatile boards. The rotary/overdrive is the weakness, but you could add a Vent or Lester K, and the fact that you can pan sounds means at least you could do that while not also putting some other split/layered sound through the sim as well (which is somewhere the Numa Compact 2X falls short... and the VR09 as well, for that matter, though at least its internal sim is better). The 300 plus the Lester K is only $79 more than a VR-09B. Better action, split/layer up to 4 sounds instead of 2 (albeit with effects limitations somewhat comparable to those of the VR), better patch recall facilities, speakers, you can load custom sampled instruments... though I think you have to go up to the 500 to get monophonic synths. It doesn't get much attention, but I think it probably beats the VR09 pretty much everywhere except organ, and if you add an outboard sim, you've got that too.

 

Myself: I like the keybed better on the NE...I like the Hammond sounds better on the NE; I think the APs are about the same. I think the VR-09 has better and more varied EPs, better clav sounds, and better lead synth stuff (and also has pitch and mod wheels to make those synth sounds come alive). The VR-09 also beats the NE in having more easily accessible preset locations: it is a bit more difficult for me to quickly get to the sounds I want on the NE.

Nord has so many APs to choose from! But Roland pianos do have their own sound, and it's subjective. As for EPs, have you tried the new ones that Nord just added? In terms of actual different EP models, I think Nord actually has the more varied selection. I'm not sure Roland actually includes all 4 clav pickup positions as Nord does, but that doesn't matter if the Roland has a clav sound you prefer... though I prefer the snappy way the Nord plays clav from its action. Can't disagree about synth. Quickly getting to the sounds you want... Nord improved that with the numeric keypad mode of the Electro 6 (and NS3). For my take on differences overall, I started a (slightly dated) VR09 vs NE5 thread at https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/2892816/

 

I think the question is more, can you do with one particular board things you would otherwise need 2 for.

For you, it's the trade-off between taking one or two boards. I always prefer two, but even THEN it's hard to get everything you want without compromise, especially if you want to keep every board under 30 lbs. So for me, trying to get the functions of two boards into one isn't a matter of being able to just take one board, but rather being able to take just two boards instead of 3+! Try to get a nice drawbar organ, a good piano, a good set of rompler sounds, loadable samples, and a knobby synth with aftertouch, out of just two lightweight boards. You can do it, but still not without compromise. Going with one board is a compromise of a compromise. ;-) But NS3 is probably as close you can get. Discussed in more depth at https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2939701/1

 

I have tried very hard, multiple times, to add a second board to my NS3 Compact rig, and I can never find a reason to do it. Anything I don't get from that board, hasn't been worth adding a second board for. I keep trying....

 

I did play a gig on someone else's gear a couple of weeks ago (really, my NS3 on top and his Yamaha P-something on the bottom), and yeah, it was fun to be able to drop down and play the piano songs on a piano and reach up for the organ, like the old days. But not so fun that I was tempted to add a weighted board back in to the mix.

If you're fine without a weighted action, the second board that would most tempt me here would be a MODX7, it's a nice sonic complement. And I just like the flexibility of being able to more easily grab sounds on the fly when you have two, I'm not big on setting stuff up ahead of time! Though if you just wanted to shore up a few places where the Nord is not the strongest, you could also do that by connecting an iPad to its EXT function.

 

Which brings me back to one of the things that bugged me about the VR09, it's such a closed system. It's very limited in its abilities to either control OR be controlled by an external device.

[AnotherScott]

The VR09 isn't just cheaper than a Nord Stage Compact, it's also half the weight, which matters a lot in a daily grind.

 

My thing, when I had a VF09, was I could strap it horizontally on back of my motorcycle. The moto wasn't just for fun, it was essential for getting through Bay Area traffic. The logistics of that operation can be tricky. An 11 lb keyboard is more feasible than 22 lbs.

It's kind of funny to be talking about a 22 lb board as too heavy, but I know what you mean (and I've thought the same of the 28 lb Artis 7), 12.25 lbs (actual VR09 weight) is still a different experience. Even the MZ-X500 is 16.8. But I think that's light enough for me to not really think about it. But I don't ride a motorcycle. ;-) I like the Juno DS a lot, too... an even lighter 11.75 lbs for the 61, and that's a really flexible board, but organ is weak, and even a better rotary sim can't fix it as there is no real drawbar emulation in the board, which I think is a prerequisite for this thread...

[WesG]

We need to get Givi to make keyboard bags!

[Adan]

We need to get Givi to make keyboard bags!

 

That would be an uber-niche market but those of us who need it would REALLY appreciate it.

[roygBiv]

Like Josh (the OP), the VR09 has been my most used board since I bought it new 5 years ago. In fact - it has been one of the best "bang for the buck" purchases I've made in the last 10-20 years.

 

That being said, it does have limitations (as pointed out by several posters).

 

However, one topic not discussed much above is the "ease of use factor of the VR09" -to me, the controls are very intelligently laid out, such that it reacts more like an instrument than most of its compatriots - effects, split points, etc. are all super easy to dial up on the fly. And once you figure out the editing system, you can tweak sounds pretty quickly.

 

That's what i like most about mine - you can pull up a sound an modify it pretty quickly, which is great in "jam" situations, or when working up new original songs.

 

Anyway, I totally agree the Achillee's heel is the action - I can barely tolerate playing organ on it, and just can't get used to it for acoustic piano.

 

However, combining it with an Roland RD-64 below for piano/electric piano, you have a very powerful combo that fits in a very small space. And can be carried together in one bag that weights about 40 lbs.

 

With that combo, my playing skills are clearly now the limiting factor vs. my equipment.

[AnotherScott]

However, one topic not discussed much above is the "ease of use factor of the VR09" -to me, the controls are very intelligently laid out, such that it reacts more like an instrument than most of its compatriots - effects, split points, etc. are all super easy to dial up on the fly.

Good point, I was just saying something similar in another thread regarding why someone might prefer a Hammond SK2/SKX over a DMC122+Gemini. Korg SV1 and Nords are classic examples of boards that look less fully featured on paper, but many find more enjoyable to actually use. There have been more moves in that direction lately... Yamaha CP73/88, Korg Grandstage/Vox Continental. In its price and weight class, the VR-09's pretty much got that market cornered.

[Josh Paxton]

I don't know Josh (the OP) personally, but I've known an number of other busy New Orleans musicians. They are often running around like maniacs, not infrequently doing multiple gigs a day. And of course New Orleans isn't the only place where that happens. I suppose if you're a trumpet player you can bring your best rig everywhere, but a keyboard player has to be more practical.

 

The VR09 isn't just cheaper than a Nord Stage Compact, it's also half the weight, which matters a lot in a daily grind.

 

This is certainly one factor in my fondness for it and the frequency with which I use it. Especially now during Mardi Gras season, the possibility of having to walk, say, six blocks with my rig is simply an accepted part of day-to-day life. When those gigs come up, regardless of style or band lineup, the rig is a no-brainer: VR on my back (with all cables and pedals in the case), single-brace x-stand in one hand, folding stool in the other.