Getting a grand piano

[fjzingo]

Turning 50 has its merits, One is getting a grand piano for my living room.

 

Ive been lurking around a bit, but not really been looking, So, I really enjoyed testing Shigeru Kawais and Steinway grands. The yamaha cx and s series also sounds good. Yesterday I tested some feurich pianos and those alos sounded and played extremely well. Question is what toget? Im really happy with my old schimmelpiano, I spent quite some time finding that.

 

Should I get a new piano, I really like the dynamics of new pianos. Should I get an older one, used pianos and grands are practically being throughn out of peoples houses. Choices, choices...

 

And then there are new pianos with possibility to play silent, is that any good? Any disadvantages? I will always have a silent digital piano anyways for gigging purposes, so not necessery.

 

Help!

[Dave Ferris]

Budget, budget and more budget.

 

A recent thread

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2955278/1

 

My advice is always try to get the latest and most lightly used model you can from a private party. Yamahas are my first recommendation - C3,C5,6 and if you have the room, the classic C7. I like the new CX models (introduced in 2012) but the middle '90s to 2011 C5,6 and C7 are still great in their own way -as long as they have been maintained - regular voicing and regulation. And not been over used in a rock recording studio or conservatory environment.

 

Any piano, but especially Yamaha, that exhibits an overly bright sound, means that it has been played a lot and the hammers have compressed. Whether or not they can be refreshed with voicing, and the tone can be restored, is an issue only an experienced tech can address. Normally on a Yamaha in this state at 25 years old, sometimes sooner, again depending on use, they just opt for a new hammer set altogether. Prices on that vary usually from 5-7K with labor.

 

Shigerus are highly desirable but not cheap and harder to find used.

 

Regarding Steinways -- you're going to be looking at Hamburgs being in Europe. They are brighter then the NY models. There are fans and dissenters of both the German and American brands. Generally speaking, the Classical people prefer the Hamburgs and the Jazz people the NY.

 

Regarding used Steinways- I don't know pricing in Europe but here a good late model NY B (going back to around 2000 and up to maybe '16) , non-re-built, original NY factory parts is going to run $50 to 65K.

 

Personally I don't like any device -silent or player- attached to an acoustic piano. Too many variables that can compromise the action and tone.

 

Play a wide variety and see what speaks to you. An "old Schimmel"- how old ? what size ? Schimmels are considered high end European pianos. What makes you want to replace it ?

 

Not a fan of the Feurich pianos I've played fwiw.

[fjzingo]

Thanks Dave,

 

Budget is not the big issue, but off course there are limitations, don't know if my wife agrees though.... A CX5-6 is possible.

 

Many things to think of, I missed a used SK5(think it was that size) recently. Steinways are similarily prized here as in US, unfortunately need to go to Stockholm or copenhagen to test them though..

 

My old schimmel is an upright 50s piano with electrical lamps. I think it's called something like upright grandpiano or something. The lid opens like a grand piano. It's really great for an upright.

 

Here a Malmsjö Grand or a schimmel from that same era would be similarily priced and good I think 3-6 k.

 

 

Budget, budget and more budget.

 

A recent thread

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2955278/1

 

My advice is always try to get the latest and most lightly used model you can from a private party. Yamahas are my first recommendation - C3,C5,6 and if you have the room the great C7. I like the new CX models (introduced in 2012) but the middle '90s to 2011 C5,6 and C7 are still great in their own way -as long as they have been maintained - regular voicing and regulation. And not been over used in a rock recording studio or conservatory environment.

 

Shigerus are highly desirable but not cheap and harder to find used.

 

Regarding Steinways -- you're going to be looking at Hamburgs being in Europe. They are brighter then the NY models. There are fans and dissenters of both the German and American brands. Generally speaking, the Classical people prefer the Hamburgs and the Jazz people the NY.

 

Regarding used Steinways- I don't know pricing in Europe but here a good late model NY B (going back to around 2000) , non-re-built, original NY factory parts is going to run $50 to 65K.

 

Personally I don't like any device -silent or player- attached to an acoustic piano. Too many variables that can compromise the action and tone.

 

Play a wide variety and see what speaks to you. An "old Schimmel"- how old ? what size ? Schimmels are considered high end European pianos. What makes you want to replace it ?

 

Not a fan of the Feurich pianos I've played fwiw.

[Dnsmo]

I recently went through an exhaustive search to find a replacement for my long-in-the-tooth Model 500 Kawai (which is the percursor to the current 180CM Kawai models), and I ended up buying a rebuilt 1936 Steinway L. That said, finding the 'right' used Steinway is a lot harder than locating a Yamaha that will please you.

 

I was lucky to happen upon a Steinway that was being sold by one of the foremost rebuilders in the U.S. for a reasonable price. But for about the same money we could have purchased a new C3X, which would have been a great choice.

 

Here are several European brands that are worth checking out: Grotrian, Petrof, and Estonian. I've heard and played excellent examples of all three in recent years that may be within your price range.

 

If you can afford a larger-model Yamaha, that would be my first choice if I were in your position. Dave's assessment above is spot on. For a new piano, you can't beat a Yamaha as an excellent value -- any CX series instrument, starting with the C3X, would be at the top of my list.

[fjzingo]

What about the next step CFX and SX are they so much better than the CX?

[Dave Ferris]

I haven't played the SX model. Those are new. They fall (pricing) between the top of the line CF and the standard CX. It's confusing to me why they need another line in there, but Yamaha does whatever they want.

 

The CFX is their flagship concert 9'er , like Chick always plays. Then you have the CF6 and CF4.

 

 

WavePackets here recently purchased the SX7. I pulled this from another thread.

 

I played the Bosendorfer 214VC, Bosendorfer 280VC, and Yamaha S7X this morning (and a few others). I actually thought I was going to fall in love with the 214VC, but I ended up pulling the trigger on the S7X! They were all amazing, and I would not mind owning a Bosendorfer 280VC some day, but not now. I preferred the S7X a little over the 214VC, but both are really amazing. I believe the S7X has the Bosendorfer sound board, and it has that extra 6 inches. To me it sounds like the perfect marriage between a Bosendorfer and a Yamaha - good for classical, pop, jazz, rock, recording, etc.

 

I owned the SX precursor, the S6 for 10 years. And before that a C7e, bought new in 1988. These handmade Yamahas have a more refined, round tone then then assembly line C/CX pianos. I hear them as having better sustain and more of an overall singing, bell- like tone to them. They have a different rim, strings and hammers.

 

I have played the premium CF6 probably at least a half-dozen times and that's one of the nicest 7'ers I've ever played. It's meant to go head to head with a NY Steinway B. As great as the CF6 is, I still prefer a good NY B to it though.

 

I would say new and without going crazy budget wise, a Yamaha CX5 or 6 would be a solid bet and a good investment -- where if you ever did want to upgrade to a Steinway, Bosendorfer, handmade Yamaha, Shigeru Kawai, or whatever - you would have a quality piano to trade or sell. On the other hand, the CX5 or CX6 are certainly good enough to be a "lifetime piano".

 

Aside from getting the deal of a lifetime on my piano in 2006, having the S6 to sell was the only way I could have afforded the Steinway D.

[hipogrito]

While you search for the right piano for you, I would highly recommend that you read the book "Grand Obsession: A Piano Oddysey" by Perri Knize. It's a great, entertaining, well written and inspiring book for people like us...

 

Regards,

Fran

[fjzingo]

Thanks,

 

The pricing is probably to steep there to the SX new, at least if I wan't to stay married.;-) But interesting to hear you're and wavepackets view. It really helps in narrowing a little. Probably find myself looking for a Steinway B or D or.....

 

thanks

 

F

 

 

I haven't played the SX model. Those are new. They fall (pricing) between the top of the line CF and the standard CX. It's confusing to me why they need another line in there, but Yamaha does whatever they want.

 

The CFX is their flagship concert 9'er , like Chick always plays. Then you have the CF6 and CF4.

 

 

WavePackets here recently purchased the SX7. I pulled this from another thread.

 

I played the Bosendorfer 214VC, Bosendorfer 280VC, and Yamaha S7X this morning (and a few others). I actually thought I was going to fall in love with the 214VC, but I ended up pulling the trigger on the S7X! They were all amazing, and I would not mind owning a Bosendorfer 280VC some day, but not now. I preferred the S7X a little over the 214VC, but both are really amazing. I believe the S7X has the Bosendorfer sound board, and it has that extra 6 inches. To me it sounds like the perfect marriage between a Bosendorfer and a Yamaha - good for classical, pop, jazz, rock, recording, etc.

 

I owned the SX precursor, the S6 for 10 years. And before that a C7e, bought new in 1988. These handmade Yamahas have a more refined, round tone then then assembly line C/CX pianos. I hear them as having better sustain and more of an overall singing, bell- like tone to them. They have a different rim, strings and hammers.

 

I have played the premium CF6 probably at least a half-dozen times and that's one of the nicest 7'ers I've ever played. It's meant to go head to head with a NY Steinway B. As great as the CF6 is, I still prefer a good NY B to it though.

 

I would say new and without going crazy budget wise, a Yamaha CX5 or 6 would be a solid bet and a good investment -- where if you ever did want to upgrade to a Steinway, Bosendorfer, handmade Yamaha, Shigeru Kawai, or whatever - you would have a quality piano to trade or sell. On the other hand, the CX5 or CX6 are certainly good enough to be a "lifetime piano".

 

Aside from getting the deal of a lifetime on my piano in 2006, having the S6 to sell was the only way I could have afforded the Steinway D.

[fjzingo]

Nice one, maybe good christmas reading.

While you search for the right piano for you, I would highly recommend that you read the book "Grand Obsession: A Piano Oddysey" by Perri Knize. It's a great, entertaining, well written and inspiring book for people like us...

 

Regards,

Fran

[Dave Ferris]

The pricing is probably to steep there to the SX new, at least if I wan't to stay married.. Probably find myself looking for a Steinway B or D or

 

:idk

 

Steinways are always going to be more then Yamahas, any Yamaha.

 

Again

My advice is always try to get the latest and most lightly used model you can from a private party. Yamahas are my first recommendation - C3,C5,6 and if you have the room, the classic C7. .

 

I would say new and without going crazy budget wise, a Yamaha CX5 or 6 would be a solid bet and a good investment

 

Or a new CX3.

 

Another option buying new could be a comparable Kawai GX model. GX3, GX5 or GX6. They are generally anywhere from 10-20% lower priced then new CX Yamahas, depending on the dealer and how much you can negotiate off. The Kawai action doesn't feel as crisp and fluent to me as Yamaha, definitely heavier. The Kawai has a darker tone.

[drohm]

Hey Fred! This is Dave (aka WavePackets). You are getting solid advice from Mr. Ferris. Now that I have owned my S7X for awhile I will give you my 2 cents.

 

First, my S7X has the best keyboard action of any piano I have every put my hands on...period! Now, new yamaha pianos all have good action, but I could tell a difference in the S7X compared to the CX series or any others. However, the difference is small. I would also buy a CX series without hesitation. Second, I owned a Mason & Hamlin A prior to this piano, so going from the darker, rich tone of an American piano to a slightly cleaner bell-like tone took a little getting used to. I would not call the S7X tone bright, but it is a more pure tone like a European/Austrian sound of a Bosendorfer...but not exactly. It is however very revealing, so it will not hide sloppy playing that the M&H could sometimes mask.

 

What I find most amazing about the S7X is how many different tones it can actually produce! I suspect part of this is due to a larger instrument (7+ ft), but I have noticed that it is much more responsive to my playing touch than other pianos I have played. When you play the piano with good control and expression it has many more dimensions than my M&H had. Don't get me wrong, the M&H was a great piano. The S7X just seems to be much better with more possibilities in sound.

 

I love the sound of a good Steinway, but for some reason I find them less than satisfying to play. To me, they sound very different sitting at the keyboard than when listening in the audience, and they always have little nuances in their keyboard action. Also, each one is different, so it feels like luck to know if you are getting a good one. That said, I always enjoy playing someone else's Steinway

 

Good luck and have fun!

 

 

[fjzingo]

Tested yamaha C3-7x and S5x today, and some other simpler yamaha models. I was really impressed by the S5x, what a soft tone and fantastic control. The C models spunded clonky and dead in comparison. The store owner was going to ask their technician to see if he could get the C pianos to respond similar or even close with respect to touch. Anyhow, this doesn´t start well for my economy........

 

Next a tour to Denmark for the steinway and Kawais.

 

 

[fjzingo]

Thanks Dave,

 

My local store had the S5x, and its a fantastic piano wrt to tone and control. I also found the tone died faster in the C pianos.

 

I can only imagine how the S7x feels.

 

 

 

 

Hey Fred! This is Dave (aka WavePackets). You are getting solid advice from Mr. Ferris. Now that I have owned my S7X for awhile I will give you my 2 cents.

 

First, my S7X has the best keyboard action of any piano I have every put my hands on...period! Now, new yamaha pianos all have good action, but I could tell a difference in the S7X compared to the CX series or any others. However, the difference is small. I would also buy a CX series without hesitation. Second, I owned a Mason & Hamlin A prior to this piano, so going from the darker, rich tone of an American piano to a slightly cleaner bell-like tone took a little getting used to. I would not call the S7X tone bright, but it is a more pure tone like a European/Austrian sound of a Bosendorfer...but not exactly. It is however very revealing, so it will not hide sloppy playing that the M&H could sometimes mask.

 

What I find most amazing about the S7X is how many different tones it can actually produce! I suspect part of this is due to a larger instrument (7+ ft), but I have noticed that it is much more responsive to my playing touch than other pianos I have played. When you play the piano with good control and expression it has many more dimensions than my M&H had. Don't get me wrong, the M&H was a great piano. The S7X just seems to be much better with more possibilities in sound.

 

I love the sound of a good Steinway, but for some reason I find them less than satisfying to play. To me, they sound very different sitting at the keyboard than when listening in the audience, and they always have little nuances in their keyboard action. Also, each one is different, so it feels like luck to know if you are getting a good one. That said, I always enjoy playing someone else's Steinway

 

Good luck and have fun!

 

[Dave Ferris]

Tested yamaha C3-7x and S5x today, and some other simpler yamaha models. I was really impressed by the S5x, what a soft tone and fantastic control. The C models spunded clonky and dead in comparison. The store owner was going to ask their technician to see if he could get the C pianos to respond similar or even close with respect to touch. Anyhow, this doesn´t start well for my economy........

 

Next a tour to Denmark for the steinway and Kawais.

 

 

Sounds like you have champagne taste. Nothing wrong with that.

 

A little unclear on your description - maybe you played both a C3X and C7X- but if you did try a C7X, there must've been something severely wrong in the prep. Because that is an outstanding sounding and playing piano in every way. Since Yamaha's prep and manufacturing is so exacting and consistent at the factory, it's usually pretty hard to muck up a C7X.

 

If the piano was knocked out of tune during delivery or while on the floor of the shop, that could certainly affect the tonal quality and sustain too.

 

But yes, I could see hearing and feeling the difference between the assembly line CX piano and the hand-crafted S5X.

 

I've yet to play any of the SX pianos. Curious about them now.

[fjzingo]

Yes, chanpagne tasting. I just heard back from the Estonia factory, those pianos are not available here but I could go directly to Talinn to try them out at the factory. Have you tried them Dave, is it worth the trip? Anyone else?

 

The c5x was out of tune, but C7x was ok. Its an exellent piano, but jumping back and forth between them the difference was really obvious. Of course you could here the size difference to th S5x. I think the touch was so much better on the S5x. There is also sometjing about the decay in tone, where the Cs die faster. Lets see if the pianotech can adjust the pianos to be more similar to the Sx series. Anyhow, a big aha for me.

[Dave Ferris]

I just heard back from the Estonia factory, those pianos are not available here but I could go directly to Talinn to try them out at the factory. Have you tried them Dave, is it worth the trip?

 

I've played the Estonias a few times. A 6'er at Hollywood Piano in Burbank. It was terrible - very muffled sounding, action was slow and laborious feeling. Not at all good prep, if any done at all there.

 

Then a few years back I played a larger Estonia, believe it was their 7'er at a private home in Bev Hills. The living room was huge with high ceilings ! I remember the guy mentioning that he had Chamber Music recitals in there. A great sounding room for the piano and music in general. I liked the 7' Estonia a lot more - could have been because it was a larger piano, easier to play, great sounding room, the owner actually spent dough to keep it in good shape. Whatever the reason, yeah it was good. But if I had to choose between a comparable Yamaha and the Estonia, I'd still go with the former.

 

A lot of fans of the Estonia over on Piano World. Whether it's worth the trip to the Estonia factory - I'd say how far? is it an all day outing ? For me it wouldn't be worth it but if you have the time and the curiosity, by all means the factory is a great place to hear the pianos. I'm told their build quality is on par with anything out there.

 

Estonia is always at NAMM in the upstairs piano room. Probably one of the worst places you can hear/play a piano because of the noise. The ones I've spent a short time on there , room noise aside, were severely lacking in prep too- man....just a good, solid basic tuning can do wonders.

[fjzingo]

Talinn is not that far from sweden and a very nice city so for me it would be combinig with a good vacation. A few people over at piano forum recommended them, its good to hear more opinions. I guess it stands between Kawai and Yamaha so far......never been to the Frankfurt fair, perhaps should go there.

I just heard back from the Estonia factory, those pianos are not available here but I could go directly to Talinn to try them out at the factory. Have you tried them Dave, is it worth the trip?

 

I've played the Estonias a few times. A 6'er at Hollywood Piano in Burbank. It was terrible - very muffled sounding, action was slow and laborious feeling. Not at all good prep, if any done at all there.

 

Then a few years back I played a larger Estonia, believe it was their 7'er at a private home in Bev Hills. The living room was huge with high ceilings ! I remember the guy mentioning that he had Chamber Music recitals in there. A great sounding room for the piano and music in general. I liked the 7' Estonia a lot more - could have been because it was a larger piano, easier to play, great sounding room, the owner actually spent dough to keep it in good shape. Whatever the reason, yeah it was good. But if I had to choose between a comparable Yamaha and the Estonia, I'd still go with the former.

 

A lot of fans of the Estonia over on Piano World. Whether it's worth the trip to the Estonia factory - I'd say how far? is it an all day outing ? For me it wouldn't be worth it but if you have the time and the curiosity, by all means the factory is a great place to hear the pianos. I'm told their build quality is on par with anything out there.

 

Estonia is always at NAMM in the upstairs piano room. Probably one of the worst places you can hear/play a piano because of the noise. The ones I've spent a short time on there , room noise aside, were severely lacking in prep too- man....just a good, solid basic tuning can do wonders.

[Nathanael_I]

The new Yamaha S7X is a phenomenally good piano. I liked it better than the Bosendorfer 228 it was next to. But the Bosendorfer 214VC is tremendous as well. If they made a 228VC.... I would love to play a 280VC, but they aren't exactly everywhere...

 

I have a Kawai RX-7 (thanks again Dave Ferris for the tip that helped me find it) that I deeply enjoy. The longer keys, the rich sound. I want for nothing. It is a delight to play, and I have become a better player - particularly in pedaling accuracy. It is capable of sounding so clear, but if I am sloppy with the pedal...

 

There is something wonderful about playing a big piano in top notch condition. Good luck in your search, but just like the less expensive pianos have gotten better, so have the top ones. I am not normally a fan of the Yamaha sound. But the S7X blew me away. It is a great time to buy an acoustic piano. There are many fine instruments used and new.

[bourniplus]

And then there are new pianos with possibility to play silent, is that any good? Any disadvantages?

 

If that is still on your radar, as far I know, any piano that has the silent option needs to have escapement set slightly sooner, which affects the touch at all times. I'd stay away from it, especially since you'll keep a digital.

[fjzingo]

Yep, decided to keep away form the silent ones. Thanks.

 

And then there are new pianos with possibility to play silent, is that any good? Any disadvantages?

 

If that is still on your radar, as far I know, any piano that has the silent option needs to have escapement set slightly sooner, which affects the touch at all times. I'd stay away from it, especially since you'll keep a digital.