VPC1 vs Nord Piano 4 / Velocity question...

[Imagine]

I have both the VPC1 and NP4. The velocity in the VPC is set to Normal. The velocity in the NP4 should also be set to normal as I just received it, and I didn't touch any of the functions.

 

I instantiated CFX Concert Grand in PT and when playing the VPC, I get a much louder velocity than when playing the NP4. I gotta play harder on the NP4 and it does have a keyboard touch button where you can switch between 1-2-3. Honestly, I have it set to 1, but can't hear the difference. I'm thinking this feature is only for the internal sounds. Gotta check that out.

 

But back to the velocity issue, just sounds like the NP4 is missing punch.

 

Those of you with an NP4 or 3, any suggestions? Thanks!

[Kawai James]

...it does have a keyboard touch button where you can switch between 1-2-3. Honestly, I have it set to 1, but can't hear the difference. I'm thinking this feature is only for the internal sounds. Gotta check that out.

 

You should be able to confirm this by using a MIDI monitor to check the velocities being transmitted by the NP4.

 

Cheers,

James

x

[Markyboard]

Based on the description in the manual I'm not surprised this function isn't reflected in the transmitted midi velocity values.

 

KBd TOUCH

Pianos from the Nord Piano libary typically have a very

wide dynamic range, and their dynamic response can be

adjusted according to what fits your preferences or the

context of your performance.

The first KBD TOUCH setting (1) facilitates playing softly

yet expressively. With each increment of the Kbd Touch setting(2and 3) less effort is required to play loudly.

 

James advice is spot on.

[Imagine]

...it does have a keyboard touch button where you can switch between 1-2-3. Honestly, I have it set to 1, but can't hear the difference. I'm thinking this feature is only for the internal sounds. Gotta check that out.

 

You should be able to confirm this by using a MIDI monitor to check the velocities being transmitted by the NP4.

 

Cheers,

James

x

 

Hi James, pardon my ignorance. I downloaded MIDI Monitor and installed it. How do I measure this? I have both keyboards connected via USB. Thanks!

[Imagine]

Based on the description in the manual I'm not surprised this function isn't reflected in the transmitted midi velocity values.

 

KBd TOUCH

Pianos from the Nord Piano libary typically have a very

wide dynamic range, and their dynamic response can be

adjusted according to what fits your preferences or the

context of your performance.

The first KBD TOUCH setting (1) facilitates playing softly

yet expressively. With each increment of the Kbd Touch setting(2and 3) less effort is required to play loudly.

 

James advice is spot on.

 

Hey DarkyLord,

 

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I'm not hearing the difference between KBD TOUCH 1 - 2 or 3. I can't imagine those are for internal sounds only.

[burningbusch]

The first KBD TOUCH setting (1) facilitates playing softly

yet expressively. With each increment of the Kbd Touch setting(2and 3) less effort is required to play loudly.

 

Probably my biggest complaint about Nords is the limited ability to customize player touch response. One linear (I assume) and two convex curves are simply not enough, especially with the $3,000 Nord Piano. With the lighter action Electros, wouldn't you want the option to play with a HEAVIER touch so you're not always banging the highest velocities?????

 

BUT, when transmitting MIDI this is all relative anyway. I assume the VSTi engine (Garritan?) has options for adjusting velocity curve and Pro Tools has Real-Time Properties which cover incoming MIDI velocity.

 

Busch.

[Imagine]

It seems the KBD TOUCH settings 1-2-3 are for internal sounds only. I can hear the difference when playing the internal piano. I can't when playing CFX for instance.

[burningbusch]

It seems the KBD TOUCH settings 1-2-3 are for internal sounds only. I can hear the difference when playing the internal piano. I can't when playing CFX for instance.

 

So ignore them. It doesn't really matter. There's no standard for MIDI transmission on these keyboards anyway. Use the controls in the VSTi engine or Pro Tools to tailor incoming MIDI to your liking.

 

Busch.

[Imagine]

Hey Busch, the thing that's strange is that when I play anything on the VPC, whatever sound I'm playing sounds alive. When I play the same thing on the NP4, it's lifeless.

[burningbusch]

Well, the VPC1 was designed to control external instruments so it might be just a lot better at that than the Nord. Completely different action which I assume is more sophisticated than the Fatar as well. With the Nord having little/no control over touch-to-MIDI transmission, it's a VERY basic controller. Based on your description, it sounds like the Nords MIDI output range is limited and doesn't reflect your playing input.

 

Busch.

[Reezekeys]

I don't know the exact "midi monitor" software you have but what you want to look at is the last number shown when you press a key down*. That's the velocity. It will range between 1 and 127, which correspond to soft (ppp) to loud (fff) dynamics. Ideally you want your pianissimo playing to be in the range of 10 to around 25, but when you hit hard you should be seeing velocities of around 115 or more very heavy-handed playing should get to 120 for sure. Sounds like your conception of forte is not in agreement with Nord!

 

I would be surprised if the CFX Concert Grand didn't have a velocity curve adjust somewhere. Every plugin manufacturer I've seen has a different way of implementing this but you might be able to make things better by altering the curve so the loudest samples are triggered with smaller velocity values. This is not ideal but might help. Of course once set like this the piano will sound very bright and harsh played from the VPC1. Good luck!

 

*I specifically say key down here because there can be a separate measurement of key up velocity too, i.e., how fast you release the key. (It's usually called "key-off" or "release" velocity).

[Imagine]

Guys, something is completely screwed up here.

 

I have Keyscape instantiated in PT. When I play the VPC, the C7 Grand sounds alive. With the NP4, it sounds muted, a completely different sound and it's not only about velocity. It actually makes the C7 sound dull.

[Reezekeys]

Since it seems to be the same issue with a different piano plugin, it sounds to me like it is the same velocity issue unless "a completely different sound" means something "completely different" from a piano! Can you upload an audio file somewhere? Have you tried looking at velocities with the midi monitor?

[Kawai James]

Hello Dean,

 

Hi James, pardon my ignorance. I downloaded MIDI Monitor and installed it. How do I measure this? I have both keyboards connected via USB. Thanks!

 

I've never used a separate app for this, but it shouldn't be so complicated. I would assume that the MIDI Monitor indicates the Note On and Note Off velocities whenever the keys are pressed, and from this should be able to confirm whether or not the NP4's KBD TOUCH button affects the values received.

 

Perhaps ProTools also indicates this information somewhere?

 

Hey Busch, the thing that's strange is that when I play anything on the VPC, whatever sound I'm playing sounds alive. When I play the same thing on the NP4, it's lifeless.

 

Have you ever tried playing the NP4's piano sounds from the VPC1 action? I know a few VPC+Nord folks who do that (I sill have an MP8II for that purpose).

 

Cheers,

James

x

[burningbusch]

Perhaps ProTools also indicates this information somewhere?

 

Pro Tools does show this info in the MIDI Event List Editor. You do need to have the transport running in record mode.

 

Busch.

[Imagine]

Thanks for your replies guys. After playing both the VPC and NP4 for nearly four hours comparing everything from assorted piano's, percussion, orchestral instruments, etc... it's obvious that the VPC has a better keybed, hands down. I had another person in the studio to compare both keypads and they also agreed that the VPC has better balanced action and responsiveness.

 

The NP4 feels like they incorporated a cheaper Fatar keybed. I don't know what they're using, but it's obviously not the top of the line.

 

The VPC is an awesome keyboard and its keybed will be hard to beat. I should also add that the Kawai wooden-key action makes all the difference.

[jimkost2002]

Thanks for your replies guys. After playing both the VPC and NP4 for nearly four hours comparing everything from assorted piano's, percussion, orchestral instruments, etc... it's obvious that the VPC has a better keybed, hands down. I had another person in the studio to compare both keypads and they also agreed that the VPC has better balanced action and responsiveness.

 

The NP4 feels like they incorporated a cheaper Fatar keybed. I don't know what they're using, but it's obviously not the top of the line.

 

The VPC is an awesome keyboard and its keybed will be hard to beat. I should also add that the Kawai wooden-key action makes all the difference.

 

I would like to offer a contrary opinion regarding the NP 4:

I am using both the internal sounds and Keyscape with the NP4s volume at zero.

I have the keyboard touch set to 1

In both instances-as controller and as stage piano I only have to use a from the keys organ style touch with gradually escaling pressure and motion to elicit a PP to FF dynanic range.

 

I have played the MP11, MP7 and ES1 Kawais but NOT the VPC

 

Again, this a contrary experience, not a criticism or invalidation of the OPs experience

 

[Markyboard]

Thanks for your replies guys. After playing both the VPC and NP4 for nearly four hours comparing everything from assorted piano's, percussion, orchestral instruments, etc... it's obvious that the VPC has a better keybed, hands down. I had another person in the studio to compare both keypads and they also agreed that the VPC has better balanced action and responsiveness.

 

The NP4 feels like they incorporated a cheaper Fatar keybed. I don't know what they're using, but it's obviously not the top of the line.

 

The VPC is an awesome keyboard and its keybed will be hard to beat. I should also add that the Kawai wooden-key action makes all the difference.

 

Don't confuse the keybed/action feel with the midi KEY ON velocity data generated. You can have a fantastic feeling keybed but if the firmware doesn't support accurate and flexible velocity curves then you get poor results. I've griped about exactly this with the Novation SL MKII controller which uses the fantastic feeling TP/9S keybed.

 

Anyway as mentioned the keybed in the NP4 is designed and optimized to work specifically with the internal sounds of the NP4. When controlling external devices you get what you get. But whether you like the feel of the VPC-1 vs the NP4 is a different matter and extremely subjective as you hopefully observed in your other related post.

 

 

[jimkost2002]

What Markyboard said....

[Imagine]

I'm not disputing preference. Keybed's are very subjective and everyone has an option about them, but comparing the NP4 to the VPC, clearly something isn't right with the NP4. I'm going to contact Nord and find out what's going on.

 

Before getting the VPC, I played on a Yamaha S90 for about 10 years until the mother-board died. It had a great keybed. Another good keybed was the Kurzweil PC88. I enjoyed playing on that too.

 

I'm positive a lot of players will enjoy the NP4, but in my case unless something occurred during shipping, something's not right.

 

The velocity is another issue. I'm still trying to figure that one out.

 

Has anyone ever compared the action between the NP4 and the Yamaha CP4?

[Reezekeys]

If you connect your NP4 to the midi monitor program and examine the key-on velocities being sent, that might help determine if there's an actual fault or not. For example, if you try to play the keys as hard as you can but still see velocities <90 or so, that would point to a defect or damage imo.

 

Spitballing: there is no "velocity offset" parameter anywhere?

[Dave Ferris]

Has anyone ever compared the action between the NP4 and the Yamaha CP4?

 

I liked the Yamaha more then the NP3 but haven't played the NP4. I'm generally not a Fatar action fan. But I do feel Nord does a very good job of calibrating the action on the NP3 to integrate with their particular pianos. I did highly dislike the NP2 and NP88 though.

 

Man this stuff is SO subjective. I was just on FB with a player in Florida who posed with a picture of the CP4 at a solo gig. I left a comment of -- ha that looks familiar. He went on to tell me how much he hates it. So go figure. He's a good player, he's been out with Al Dimeola as of late. He felt the action was too heavy and didn't like the tone...not sure why he bought it and didn't exchange it for something else.

 

Maybe time for an exchange Dean. If you liked the S90, it's way overkill for a controller, but maybe the Montage 8 if you like the Yamaha Balanced action. It's a lighter action then the CP4.

 

Maybe try the Kawai MP11SE. That's pretty much hands down the best wooden action I've felt in a semi-portable stage piano.

 

There's always the Roland RD2000 to check out too.

[Imagine]

If you connect your NP4 to the midi monitor program and examine the key-on velocities being sent, that might help determine if there's an actual fault or not. For example, if you try to play the keys as hard as you can but still see velocities <90 or so, that would point to a defect or damage imo.

 

Spitballing: there is no "velocity offset" parameter anywhere?

 

I'll be doing some testing today. Just got the UnFairchild, so I'm playing with that.

[Imagine]

Has anyone ever compared the action between the NP4 and the Yamaha CP4?

 

I liked the Yamaha more then the NP3 but haven't played the NP4. I'm generally not a Fatar action fan. But i do feel Nord does a very good job of calibrating on the NP3 to integrate with their particular pianos. I did highly hate the NP2 and NP88 though.

 

Man this stuff is SO subjective. I was just on FB with a player in Florida who posed with a picture of the CP4 at a solo gig. I left a comment of -- ha that looks familiar. He went on to tell me how much he hates it. So go figure. He's a good player, he's been out with Al Dimeola as of late. He felt the action was too heavy and didn't like the tone...not sure why he bought it and didn't exchange it for something else.

 

Maybe time for an exchange Dean. If you liked the S90, it's way overkill for a controller, but maybe the Montage 8 if you like the Yamaha Balanced action. It's a lighter action then the CP4.

 

Maybe try the Kawai MP11SE. That's pretty much hands down the best wooden action I've felt in a semi-portable stage piano.

 

There's always the Roland RD2000 to check out too.

 

Dave, I couldn't agree more. I think keybed's are more subjective than monitors.

 

I think the NP4 has the same keybed as the NP3. I'm not a huge fan of Fatar keybed's as well. Before getting the NP4, I called around town and no one had them in stock. They were all expecting them in a couple weeks, so I ended up getting it from SW.

 

I have a friend who loves his CP4. Again, there's that word, subjective.

 

I was thinking about another Yamaha or the MP11SE. A few people have said the MP11SE and VPC1 are very similar. I'll have to look into that and the RD2000. Thanks!

[Dave Ferris]

Another thought -- look for a gently used S90XS 88. They are not that old and there might be one just sitting in someone's studio, or home, with low hours on it and he just wants to get rid of it.

 

Maybe play your friend's CP4 before you do an exchange.

[Imagine]

I was thinking about that, but would like the option to try other keyboards. Before I return the NP4 (I think they have a 30 day return policy), I'll be trying other keyboards. All I really need is a controller without internal sounds, but with a great keybed.

 

VPC is one of the very few controllers without internal sounds. I never really play them.

[Markyboard]

Just a thought- is it possible you have the soft pedal function inadvertently engaged? I wouldn't expect this to affect midi velocity but who knows. It appears you can define the sustain pedal as "triple" which might be affecting velocity data? Kind of reaching here but had to ask.

 

 

[Imagine]

There are 4 options. Auto (Triple), Closed, Open and Triple. I have it set to Auto. Although, this isn't affecting the midi velocity.

[Markyboard]

OK- understood. How's that midi monitor coming along?

 

Midi Monitor

[Imagine]

I tried Midi Monitor, and both keyboards played up to 127 velocity. I'll be posting a comparison between the NP4 and VPC soon.