Rack mount synths--Roland...other?

[GRollins]

Thanks for the comparison.

 

Time to YouTube, then. Kinda sniff around the three as best I can. As usual, there's absolutely zero chance of getting a chance to lay hands on the real thing here in the hinterlands.

 

Grey

[Synthaholic]

Not fairly modern, but I always want to throw the Alesis QSR into the mix. Sounds great, less filling.

+1

 

Really dig a lot of the programs in this thing, especially those crafted by our very own, dB. While it does not satisfy all of your criteria, the QS-R might be a relatively economical way to add a new category of quality sounds to your palette.

 

They sound great live.

[Synthaholic]

I think an Integras Greatest Hits in a light 1U rack for $699 would be wonderful. Keep the 8 outputs and Ill pay an extra $100.

[GRollins]

The name "Integra" sounds like a friggin' automobile...

 

If everybody will leave me in peace for a few minutes, I'll try to sneak in a few YouTube demo/reviews.

 

Grey

[zeronyne]

If you are set on considering Roland, and you really want to stay with the idea of mixing sound engines, I'd avoid their relatively modern racks. As was pointed out here several times, the JV/XV/Fantom/Integra family are just Romplers. Don't get me wrong, I've owned at least one of those at any given time. But they are sample playback with filters and some routing and modulation. Apart from the V-Synth, which I owned for years and recently sold, I don't think you'd feel that sense of exploration with these pieces.

 

But what if you went back a little further in Roland's line? MKS? D550? Alpha Juno? Personally, I thought they were overhyped and now oddly revered, but they do have singular characteristics that make them compelling as synth engines. Just a thought.

[AnotherScott]

As was pointed out here several times, the JV/XV/Fantom/Integra family are just Romplers.

The Integra is more than that with its large bank of modeled SuperNatural sounds, that aren't purely sample based... to many people, I think that is its most compelling aspect. (It also does have a VA synth, though nothing too unusual or spectacular there.) But yeah, the whole idea behind all of these pieces is largely that you want the Roland acoustc instrument sounds. If you really want to synthesis, you look elsewhere in their line.

 

But what if you went back a little further in Roland's line? MKS? D550?

I really liked the MKS70. Never had an MKS80. But sure, real analog in a rack has a whole different appeal of its own. D550 is basically a D50, which is basically included in the V-Synth XT or available as a tiny D-05.

[GRollins]

Interim report:

They're saying that the Integra has 6k voices(?!) and I swear I've listened to a third of them in bits and pieces. So far--and of course, I'm at the mercy of the folks running the demos--I haven't heard anything that I can't live without. Some are nice, but not really grabbing me by the short & curlies, as the expression goes.

 

(I heard the sound of pitchforks being sharpened over in Rolandtown. I may not live to see the sun rise...)

 

I'm going to take a break and try some V-Synth demos.

 

(Caveat: We're still having high winds and could lose power due to falling trees. [i've got one hanging at a perilous 45 degree angle in my front yard.] That might put a damper on the party.)

 

Grey

[AnotherScott]

Interim report:

They're saying that the Integra has 6k voices(?!)

 

256 SuperNatural Acoustic tones, those are it's newest/best acoustic instrument emulations, and probably the ones most worth checking out for what it does best.

 

Over 1100 SuperNatural synth tones. Virtual analog stuff. If you're into VA, I generally feel you're better off making your own. But I guess some people would rather scroll through 1000 synth sounds looking for what they want...?

 

Then I think there are about 900 "PCM synth" rompler sounds that I believe are the original XV-5080 patches. Old or classic, depending on your point of view.

 

Then there's the GM2 sound set, the drum kits, all the loadable SRX expansion card sounds, the loadable HQ PCM set... it adds up.

 

The point is, I wouldn't audition them randomly, I'd attempt to find example within the above categories that interest you.

[dsetto]

For the low cost, "other" category ... perhaps EMU? Like Proteus 2000? Its 6 outputs and dual midi ports can be a good bang-for-the-1U-space.

[Quai34]

I have the proteus 2000 with the World expansion, Composer, Ensonik x7 and Protozoa (Pop 1,2 and 3) expansion....I use it a lot, in the studio or live....

Ok, I could also use the XV5080 and maybe it jad nostalgia when I bought them but when Roland released the Imtegra at the same time I was shopping for seem thing like you, I was hesitating but went the older rompler route due to really cheaper cost....

[GRollins]

The point is, I wouldn't audition them randomly, I'd attempt to find example within the above categories that interest you.

 

Aye, but that's the problem with the audition-via-YouTube strategy...I have to way to control what's out there. For instance, I found a video for the V-Synth that runs through all 128 voices of bank 1--tedious, but perfect for my needs. The problem is that there's no corresponding video for any other bank (I haven't looked at an owner's manual yet, but I'm assuming that if there's a 1, then there's probably a 2, 3...) and I haven't found anything like that for the Integra.

 

Grey

[DanL]

Not fairly modern, but I always want to throw the Alesis QSR into the mix. Sounds great, less filling.

+1

 

Really dig a lot of the programs in this thing, especially those crafted by our very own, dB. While it does not satisfy all of your criteria, the QS-R might be a relatively economical way to add a new category of quality sounds to your palette.

 

They sound great live.

 

I had this module, it did sound good but the sounds got buried in a loud band.

[MorayM]

I've had a lot of Roland racks, and my (misplaced?) love for them is well documented!

 

For the record the Integra *does* have the XV5080 soundset but the XR does *not*. The Integra has *some* PCM sounds from the XR but many have been replaced with superior SuperNatural versions.

 

On the expansion card front *most* of the PCM data from the SR-JV80 series cards made it into the SRX series even if the patches didn't. Notable exceptions are SR-JV80-06 Dance (due to a copyright lawsuit) and I think SR-JV80-15 FX was dropped too but I could be wrong.

 

If you want to get into really, really anal detail about the Roland racks, then Don Solaris' blog post goes into all the detail you never thought you needed about architecture, DACs, samples rates and more. While you're there, get his sound pack for the JV-1080, it's full of beautiful synth sounds and also works in the 20, 30 and 5080.

[AnotherScott]

Aye, but that's the problem with the audition-via-YouTube strategy...I have to way to control what's out there. For instance, I found a video for the V-Synth that runs through all 128 voices of bank 1--tedious, but perfect for my needs. The problem is that there's no corresponding video for any other bank (I haven't looked at an owner's manual yet, but I'm assuming that if there's a 1, then there's probably a 2, 3...) and I haven't found anything like that for the Integra.

Ah. Yeah, limited selection there.

 

For Integra SN Acoustic Tones, a bunch of them are in this playlist, you can just click video-after-video on the right when you've heard enough of one sound and want to go on to the next, but it's still not nearly complete.

 

 

For the other non-synth tones, as we've been discussing, most are from older Rolands, so there are lots of other ways to search for sound demos to get an idea (although there can be some differences, i.e. effects can be different on different hardware). But for example, for all the SRX sounds, you don't need to search for Integra, just search for Roland SRX demos, there's plenty of that. Here's Roland's own:

 

http://www.rolandus.com/flash/demos/rd700gx/SRX.html

 

Likewise, to hear the XV-5080 soundset, look for XV-5080 demos rather than Integra demos. Actually, a good source is probably the 19 videos from this guy:

- he runs through all the FA patches, the FA also including the XV5080 sound set. I'm pretty sure that every sound in the FA is in the Integra (though the Integra has way more sounds that are not in the FA).

 

As for the SuperNatural Synth section, I don't think a demo tells you so much. I mean, for acoustic tones, you hear strings or trumpet or whatever, you have a reference, you know what you're looking for in string or trumpet sounds. Synth sounds are more arbitrary, and more about coming up with what you want than about how good or bad you find their presets, IMO. But Roland does have a play list of SN Synth sounds (which I think are mostly crappy, from the handful I heard) at

but I guess it a least serves to give you a sense of some of its character.

 

Similarly, on the V-Synth, I think it's more about getting a sense of its character and then looking at the manual and reviews to get a sense of what it does, rather than needing to listen to every bank of presets, personally. If you're looking to be a preset jockey, a V-Synth is probably not the board you're looking for.

 

For the record the Integra *does* have the XV5080 soundset but the XR does *not*.

So the 128 mb XR wave set is not a superset of the 64 mb XV5080 wave set, good to know. Is it entirely different? i.e. from a separate sound development team who didn't use any of the XV5080 sound set at all? Or are there still some 5080 sounds in an XR?

 

The Integra has *some* PCM sounds from the XR but many have been replaced with superior SuperNatural versions.

Are you sure? My understanding is that the Integra PCM sounds fall strictly into three categories:

* XV-5080 sound set

* SRX cards

* the HQ PCM/GM2 4-slot expansion

 

Unless you'e saying that the HQ PCM expansion includes some sounds sourced from the XR sound set?

[GRollins]

Things were easier when there were only 64 voices in a box...

 

Six thousand?

 

Yikes!

 

I'll freely admit that my eyes cross when people say that the Multi-Mega-Magnitude unit has some, but not all of the ZFM-123 voices, all of the ABF-2 voices, but only three of the very desirable Ultra-Booger sounds. I mean, I get the idea of Venn diagrams and all that, but if I'm not familiar with the contents of the sets (and I'm not, being a late-comer to keys), then it's wee bit difficult to wrap my head around which is what.

 

*sigh*

 

Incidentally, I've got an Integra demo rolling in another tab and the Roland minion just said there are "over six thousand sounds." Oh. Great. 6k was bad enough. Now it's "over" 6k, so add another week to my audition time.

 

Good thing I'm not in a hurry on this.

 

Grey

[allan_evett]

I arrived a little late to this party, but can definitely confirm the love for Roland sound modules being expressed. I have a Jupiter 50 and XV-5080; they mostly stay at home now, but do sound great live. I've thought about condensing the two into an Integra; my keyboard room feels a little overloaded with keyboards

 

The Integra would be a great choice for what you're trying to do; the Fantom XR a solid second. I just noticed that RedKey, here on the forum, has a Fantom XR posted in the Garage Sale section. Guessing you'd find plenty to use in that one. The range of tones in the XR is extensive, and they sound excellent; the Integra is insane.

[Bill H.]

Huge love for Roland hardware here also - having owned (or still own):

 

Jupiter 6, D-110, JV-80, XP-50, XP-60, XP-80, Fantom S, Fantom X, V-Synth.

 

But here's the thing: I've never had much love for Roland presets, and because of that learned how to program all these units from the ground up. If you are going to decide based on the presets alone, I guess you'll just have to go though them somehow. And at this point, I'm not sure learning how to program a discontinued Roland module would best use of time anyway. But be warned - they are going to sound dated.

 

As for me, I'd like to wrap my "Rolands" all up in a bow with an Integra-7, or perhaps an FA-08 for praise music. Most of what I look for in a Roland is present in either of these - and then some.

 

 

[GRollins]

I've been listening to the Integra and V-Synth in bits and snatches, in-between (or while) doing other things. At this moment, I'm leaning more towards the V-Synth, but they clearly both have sounds that are useful. In an ideal world, I suppose the answer would be to get both, but I can't justify that amount of money. For that matter, I'm still trying to rationalize the cost of one.

 

I haven't even started on the XR.

 

Nor have I started on the non-Roland suggestions that people have been kind enough to toss in. If it's a rack thingy and can be MIDI-ed to this Fatar controller I'm building, I'm game to give it a listen...seems a pity to have all these unused inputs on the Edirol.

 

Grey

[allan_evett]

 

I haven't even started on the XR.

 

Nor have I started on the non-Roland suggestions that people have been kind enough to toss in. If it's a rack thingy and can be MIDI-ed to this Fatar controller I'm building, I'm game to give it a listen...seems a pity to have all these unused inputs on the Edirol.

 

Grey

 

I have three hardware modules remaining in my workspace: XV-5080, Alesis QSR, and Yamaha TX-1P. The QSR is rather underrated; it's basically a rack version of Alesis' very popular QS 7.1. So here's yet another item to add to your listening list:

 

[video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORp8tVWMReE

[Synthaholic]

+1

 

Really dig a lot of the programs in this thing, especially those crafted by our very own, dB. While it does not satisfy all of your criteria, the QS-R might be a relatively economical way to add a new category of quality sounds to your palette.

 

They sound great live.

 

I had this module, it did sound good but the sounds got buried in a loud band.

 

Turn up!

[burningbusch]

Regarding the V-Synth, it has a somewhat convoluted history. I bought the original V-Synth keyboard and still own it. Unique sounds and unique ways to trigger, mangle WAVs. It also has the VA component.

 

After a few years, Roland released OS ver. 2.0. This included some very nice enhancements to the synth engine but also came with a new set of waveforms. Note: the V-Synth is also fairly unique in that all of the WAVs load from storage each time you boot (you can see them being loaded). Many V-Synth owners, myself included, much preferred the original WAVs and we voiced our disappointment. To their great credit, Roland provided a version of OS 2.0 with the original WAVs. I believe the V-Synth XT was also released around this time and I'm pretty sure that you could not load the original V-Synth OS 1.0 WAVs in it, only the new ones. The V-Synth GT came out later and I believe it had still a different set of WAVs. The newer version 2.0 and GT programs tended to be more rhythmic loops, arps, etc. whereas the original programs where more player focused, as I recall.

 

So as you watch Youtube demos, understand there are several possible configurations:

 

1) Original V-Synth with OS 1.0 features and WAVS/programs.

2) Original V-Synth with OS 2.0 features and 1.0 WAV/programs.

3) Original V-Synth/XT with OS 2.0 and new WAVS/programs.

4) V-Synth GT with its new feature set and I believe new WAVs/programs.

 

I don't know much about the GT, only that it has more features including AP synthesis.

 

I'm pretty sure if I could have loaded the original WAVs into the XT I would have bought one as a rack better fits my space. The V-Synth, along with my Yamaha VL-1 are the only two digital synths I expect to keep for a long time (they're 15+ years old already). They are unique and there are no software equivalent instruments.

 

I thought Roland missed out on an opportunity with the V-Synth in not providing more WAVs that could be added. Obviously, the WAVs didn't live in ROM, so allowing users to change out their WAVs should have been fairly easy. It never happened and WAV management was cumbersome. For example, in order to use the original WAVs with OS 2.0, you had to install them with the OS. If you wanted to try out the new WAVs, your only option was to reinstall OS 2.0 with the new WAVs.

 

FYI, it's been a long time since I thought about all this, so it might not be 100%.

 

Busch.

[Losendoskeys]

Huge love for Roland hardware here also - having owned (or still own):

 

Jupiter 6, D-110, JV-80, XP-50, XP-60, XP-80, Fantom S, Fantom X, V-Synth.

 

But here's the thing: I've never had much love for Roland presets, and because of that learned how to program all these units from the ground up. If you are going to decide based on the presets alone, I guess you'll just have to go though them somehow. And at this point, I'm not sure learning how to program a discontinued Roland module would best use of time anyway. But be warned - they are going to sound dated.

 

As for me, I'd like to wrap my "Rolands" all up in a bow with an Integra-7, or perhaps an FA-08 for praise music. Most of what I look for in a Roland is present in either of these - and then some.

 

I chose the XR because of the sampling feature AND because of presets.

With the Ultimate Keys fitted I have all the sounds for my early era Genesis band without doing much at all.

With my Kronos 2 61 I am struggling to get close because the internal effects in the Krionos aren't actually as good as the XR/XP30 for this music. SO DON'T FORGET TO AUDITION EFFECTS!

[GRollins]

To their great credit, Roland provided a version of OS 2.0 with the original WAVs.

 

The newer version 2.0 and GT programs tended to be more rhythmic loops, arps, etc. whereas the original programs where more player focused, as I recall.

 

So as you watch Youtube demos, understand there are several possible configurations:

 

1) Original V-Synth with OS 1.0 features and WAVS/programs.

2) Original V-Synth with OS 2.0 features and 1.0 WAV/programs.

3) Original V-Synth/XT with OS 2.0 and new WAVS/programs.

4) V-Synth GT with its new feature set and I believe new WAVs/programs.

 

I'm pretty sure if I could have loaded the original WAVs into the XT I would have bought one as a rack better fits my space.

 

Busch.

 

There's a lot to unpack here. I have to say that nearly every aspect of this odyssey seems to have some sort of caveat or "gotcha," e.g. if you get the XR, you need the right card(s) to make it worthwhile.

 

--I seem to recall seeing something about Ver. 2.02 (I may have the version wrong) in some of the demos. Is that the "good" version of the software? Is there somewhere I can look to get more details on the software versions--specifically including whether they're any good, not just Roland's inevitable touting of "newer and better."

 

--Loops and arpeggios are of little interest to me, so from what you're saying, it's likely that I'll side with you and want more player-oriented voices.

 

--I'm not sure I'm clear on this: Are you saying that the XT rack unit cannot be loaded with the version of the software that has the older voice set?

 

--This will complicate evaluation via YouTube because not all posters include details like software versions. (And it means I'll have to go back through a hundred videos to see if they've got the version posted. Aaaargh! Not your fault.)

 

--Like you, I've reached a point where I'm running out of space. Whether my inner Rick Wakeman likes it or not, rack stuff is my best option if I want new voices. The exception being the possibility of replacing the little Yamaha PSR-200 with a better keyboard. As far as the big rig goes, however, it's getting pretty tight.

 

Grey

[AnotherScott]

nearly every aspect of this odyssey seems to have some sort of caveat or "gotcha," e.g. if you get the XR, you need the right card(s) to make it worthwhile.

Remember also that all the cards for the XR are already built in to the Integra (they are the SRX expansions).

 

This will complicate evaluation via YouTube because not all posters include details like software versions. (And it means I'll have to go back through a hundred videos to see if they've got the version posted. Aaaargh! Not your fault.)

For all intents and purposes, all you need to do is to confirm that, in auditioning sounds for the V-Synth XT, you didn't accidentally include any videos of any of the non-rack (i.e. non-XT) versions of the V-Synth.

[MorayM]

For the record the Integra *does* have the XV5080 soundset but the XR does *not*.

So the 128 mb XR wave set is not a superset of the 64 mb XV5080 wave set, good to know. Is it entirely different? i.e. from a separate sound development team who didn't use any of the XV5080 sound set at all? Or are there still some 5080 sounds in an XR?

 

I upgraded from a 5080 to a Fantom X8 and as part of that I ported loads of my old sounds over. There's no patch file compatibility between the two despite the nearly-identical architecture due to the differences in wave sets. I can't categorically say that none of the the 5080's waves made it into the X, but if they did I didn't find them!

 

The Integra has *some* PCM sounds from the XR but many have been replaced with superior SuperNatural versions.

Are you sure? My understanding is that the Integra PCM sounds fall strictly into three categories:

* XV-5080 sound set

* SRX cards

* the HQ PCM/GM2 4-slot expansion

 

Unless you'e saying that the HQ PCM expansion includes some sounds sourced from the XR sound set?

 

I've just taken a look at the Integra patch list to satisfy my curiosity, it looks like the HQ PCM does have some patch names that I recognise from the Fantom X. Weirdly I recognise some names in that list (particularly the D-50-esque ones) from the SR-JV80-04 but I'd have to look at them on the unit to work out what's really going on!

[ApprenticeGary]

I bought an xv3080 for cheap recently. It sounds better than what I remember the 5080 sounded like. I used a 5080 intensively 10 years ago and then sold it. I dont remember it sounded this good(like 3080). It maybe that the way I play are changing over the years.. My fantom x does have better and newer samples, while it sounds more compressed and busy than the 3080(Sorry for my lame English). The 3080 is quieter and more pleasant to my ears.

[GRollins]

Interestingly, some patch names can be found on both my MM8 and my Motif XS rack, but...they sound different. Possible reasons abound:

--actual differences in the patches

--differences in the hardware (different DAC?)

--I've discovered that anything the MM8 plays via MIDI sounds different from other keyboards--my hypothesis is that it's due to the velocity curve, but I don't know of a way to prove that

--in the dark of the night when I staring at the ceiling, not sleeping, I've come up with other possibilities, but they strike me as less likely than the above

 

I haven't really done exhaustive research on the situation because in the end it doesn't really matter--I can't change anything in the MM8 (e.g. velocity), so it's just The Way Things Are. The Fatar keyboard project's got velocity options, but none of them sound the same, either. It has the option to build your own velocity maps, but that's going to be such a tedious mess that I hesitate to even begin.

 

No, I haven't tried to drive the XS with the Korg. It would be an interesting experiment, but it's counter to my plans, as my intention is to run the Kronos independently, and do the mix/match thing on other pieces-parts.

 

Grey

[Losendoskeys]

nearly every aspect of this odyssey seems to have some sort of caveat or "gotcha," e.g. if you get the XR, you need the right card(s) to make it worthwhile.

Remember also that all the cards for the XR are already built in to the Integra (they are the SRX expansions).

 

This will complicate evaluation via YouTube because not all posters include details like software versions. (And it means I'll have to go back through a hundred videos to see if they've got the version posted. Aaaargh! Not your fault.)

For all intents and purposes, all you need to do is to confirm that, in auditioning sounds for the V-Synth XT, you didn't accidentally include any videos of any of the non-rack (i.e. non-XT) versions of the V-Synth.

 

..........but the Integra doesn't sample and it is 2U instead of 1U if rack space is at a premium

[AnotherScott]

I can't categorically say that none of the the 5080's waves made it into the X, but if they did I didn't find them!

Interesting. So getting back to GRollin's point about needing to buy multiple rack units to get the most complete Roland sonic representation in a rack, not only would you need both an Integra7 and V-Synth (which essentially have zero overlap, one being a rompler and the other being a synth), but you even would need the XR as well, as the Fantom sound library is close to non-existent in the Integra-7 as well, despite it also serving rompler functions. If you don't need it to fit in a rack, there are other keyboard-less possibilities... I think the Sonic Cell sound set is almost (although not completely) identical to the Fantom XR (you lose the sampling, some of the expansion slots and front panel controls). Then you could also look at Boutique modules, if you wanted representation of things like a D50 (though that's also in the V-Synth XT) or a Jupiter 8.

[burningbusch]

For all intents and purposes, all you need to do is to confirm that, in auditioning sounds for the V-Synth XT, you didn't accidentally include any videos of any of the non-rack (i.e. non-XT) versions of the V-Synth.

 

Agreed. Honestly, I look for the V-Synth ONLY if you're attracted to its uniqueness. As a VA, it's so-so IMO. Bread and butter sounds are not its forte.

 

Busch.