12 String VS Whammy

[Big Dave]

Hey all, been away for awhile as I was moving. All settled in and back to playing. I have the desire to buy another guitar (wow BIG surprise), but with a limited budget I can't buy both. SO if you could only buy one; would it be a 12 string electric, OR an electric with a tremolo?? I feel like one of these would be my next step in my learning progress. Help me decide, THANKS

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'm biased: I already have a few electrics with trems, so I'd go with a 12.

 

Clearly, though, that isn't what I did back when I originally faced that kind of question. But it was a different time, and there are options I know of NOW that I didn't know of then.

 

Knowing what I know now, facing that choice now (IOW, without already owning electrics with trems), I'd still go for a 12. I even know which I'd buy.

[whitefang]

I don't own ANY electrics, so I'd have to base MY decision on something else.

 

For instance, I don't really NEED an electric for any reason other than just to have one. So since I don't play my 12-string as OFTEN as the 6, then the SIX string electric would be my 1st choice, and the tremolo bar an option to be considered. And since most bars can be swung around out of the way, then why NOT?

Whitefang

[Winston Psmith]

Hey all, been away for awhile as I was moving. All settled in and back to playing. I have the desire to buy another guitar (wow BIG surprise), but with a limited budget I can't buy both. SO if you could only buy one; would it be a 12 string electric, OR an electric with a tremolo?? I feel like one of these would be my next step in my learning progress. Help me decide, THANKS

 

Depends on what you want to do next, and what Guitars you have now?

 

You don't have to use the Vibrato Bar on an Electric Guitar, so it's more of an option or feature: You can still play any kind of Music you like on the Guitar, you just have the option of grabbing the bar. The 12-string sound, OTOH, is very distinctive, and you can't simply turn it off, or push it aside.

 

If your goal is to sound like The Byrds, an Electric 12-string is one way to get there. A 12-string will also make you work a little harder to play it, but I'm not sure either one will significantly affect your progress?

[jimmac]

I always avoid the trem bars. My first good guitar was a Fender Coronado II that had a trem bar set up that I disabled because it was hard to tune or keep in tune. It did not have the bar when I bought it from a pawn shop so it went out of tune because of the design. Since then if it had a trem bar I kept looking. Jim

[Big Dave]

Well thanks for the input. I listen and play classic rock, mid-60's to late 70's. And I was told by my last instructor that the only good thing about a trem is to make your instrument out of tune. BUT, WOW there are some VERY cool sounds that I hear coming out of a trem. And Winston you're correct - That sound that a 12 string makes is VERY distinctive and truly unique. One other option I'm thinking of is getting a low cost mixer so I can run two guitars through one amp. Any thoughts????

[Dannyalcatraz]

An octave pedal or poly-octave generator can get you 12-stringing effects. Just sayin'.

 

FWIW, these are my 12-string front runners:

 

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[CEB]

All mine hold tune. And I mash them.

 

One of the nicer Yamaha Pacifica (611vfm or 612 vfm) with the wilkinson whammy and locking tuners or a Reverend guitar with a Wilkinson whammy and locking tuners. I have a Floyd and a Kahler but I am so over the locking nut .... Especially the Floyd. The Wilkinson setup well works great with none of the setup bullshit. Just string it and go.

 

PRS is another option.

[Scott Fraser]

Apples & oranges really. I think you'll just need to hang out in guitar shops for a while, trying stuff out, until one of them grabs you. For me the choice is simple: as Winston says, the 12 string will make you work harder. Every 12 string I pick up makes me feel like a beginner. I just can't get any groove going at all, so I personally would go with a 6, & most of my guitars do have trems. That's a pretty important part of my playing. But only you can tell what clicks for you.

[Larryz]

+1 on the apples and oranges...I would pick the guitar that will be a good fit for the genre, music, artists, etc., that I intend to play. I have a friend with a few acoustic Takamine 12 strings and they are fairly easy to play and not too expensive. For keeping a tremolo equipped guitar in tune, I would recommend a roller bridge. I really prefer a 6 string guitar with or without the whammy bar.

[Winston Psmith]

Well thanks for the input. I listen and play classic rock, mid-60's to late 70's. And I was told by my last instructor that the only good thing about a trem is to make your instrument out of tune. BUT, WOW there are some VERY cool sounds that I hear coming out of a trem. And Winston you're correct - That sound that a 12 string makes is VERY distinctive and truly unique. One other option I'm thinking of is getting a low cost mixer so I can run two guitars through one amp. Any thoughts????

 

First and foremost, I agree with Scott Fraser's suggestion: Spend some more time in Music stores, or anywhere where you can try a number of different Guitars, with different features, so you can get an idea what really draws you. Also, ask other players what they use, or avoid, and why. (You'll find my own remarks are highly prejudiced, for example . . .)

 

In reverse order of your inquiries . . .

 

An A/B box, or an A/B/Y box will let you run two Guitars into one Amp, without adding EQ or Gain, which a Mixer likely would. As far as cost, it's a toss-up. A good Whirlwind A/B box will cost you more than a really cheap 4-channel Mixer; I'd still go with the A/B box . . .

 

Personally, I'm not a fan of Octave effects, especially not for 12-string emulation, but YEMV. (I warned you I was prejudiced.)

 

I can see where if you are just starting out, particularly as a Rhythm Guitarist, choosing a 12-string would not only build up strength in your hands, but give you a very distinct sound that might make you stand out in auditions. Even if someone didn't think they were looking for a 12-string sound for their band, anything that makes you stand out as a Musician can help.

 

Not all Trems are created equal, so it would be helpful to know what kind of Term sound you want to emulate. A Strat with a standard Fender Trem will sound, and behave, differently than a semi-hollow with a Bigsby, and the notorious Floyd Rose is yet another animal. Of the three, the Strat is the easiest to work with, especially for the inexperienced. Re-stringing a Bigbsy-equipped Guitar can bring grown men to tears, while the Floyd is for Metalheads, engineers, and possibly the damned. I should mention that PRS' SE import line also features a reasonably workable Trem system.

 

A Trem system is standard equipment on many Guitar models, so it's more about choosing a Guitar with a Trem system than looking for a Trem than has a Guitar attached, so to speak: The Guitar comes first. If you don't like it, none of the features matter.

 

As far as the tuning issue, you can always have the Trem system 'blocked', so it doesn't move at all, and thus, won't negatively impact tuning stability. Many of the better modern Trem systems should stay in tune, so long as you're not dive-bombing the strings. Even so, if you use any Trem system vigorously enough, you'll have to re-tune.

 

It would help to know what Guitar(s) you already have, and what kinds of Trem sounds you're listening to? One way to help narrow your search is to think about the players you listen to, what you like about their sound, and what kind of gear they use. No, owning a Strat won't make you play like Hendrix any more than owning a Les Paul will make you play like, well, Les Paul, but there are many reasons a Fender doesn't sound like a Gibson, and you should consider those things when making your choices.

 

Final sideways piece of advice: If you're buying a Guitar you're not sure you're going to keep or commit to, try to find a good Used one. It'll be more likely to hold its value if you go to sell it, later on.

[desertbluesman]

Hey all, been away for awhile as I was moving. All settled in and back to playing. I have the desire to buy another guitar (wow BIG surprise), but with a limited budget I can't buy both. SO if you could only buy one; would it be a 12 string electric, OR an electric with a tremolo?? I feel like one of these would be my next step in my learning progress. Help me decide, THANKS

 

I always go with solid body electrics, and I block the tremolo solid if the guitar comes equipped with one.

[p90jr]

One other option I'm thinking of is getting a low cost mixer so I can run two guitars through one amp. Any thoughts????

 

If I may ask... why? Do you play two guitars at the same time?

 

If you just don't want to bother unplugging one to plug in another, get an A/B/Y box, a simple and inexpensive thing. If you have different EQ or level considerations for different guitars in the same amp, an EQ pedal, or something like the Seymour Duncan Pickup Booster can even them out in EQ or level... or some people use overdrive pedals that get closer to being preamps (like the Xotic BB Preamp Overdrive, as used for this purpose by people like Jon Herington from Steely Dan) dedicated to do both. A mixer is a strange choice to introduce into a guitar to amp environment.

[p90jr]

Myself, I lately find myself switching between humbucker guitars, Strats and Teles with single-coils, P90 guitars and a Danelectro 12 string with lipstick pickups, all into the same amp (90% of the time a Vox AC15).

 

The first thing these go into usually is a THD Quintet passive tone pedal, which works with pickups to give you different tone shaping options, then one of the first version Seymour Duncan pickup boosters (only really needed for my main Strat, which has the Vintage Noiseless pickups - stacked humbuckers that sound like single coils - which I seem to be one of few who like them - which are lower output than anything else). At the end pf my boad is a GFS Twin Clean Drive... an analog pedal that simulates a 6L6 (think Fender) or EL34 (think Vox or Marshall) amp tones, or both together. I use that mostly as a way to bring down volume while still having some life in my clean base tone if need be, or to tweak the tone when the soundguy asks for more bottom end or something in a way that can also be set and used just for one type of pickups... usually for the Fender guitars in the 6L6 channel, and the Danelectro in the EL34 channel (I use a Janglebox on the treble boost setting for the Dano 12, lovely and alive sounding, but too bright so this gets that into manageable territory).

[d halfnote]

I don't understand the basis of yer Q.

How do they seems comparable to you ?

Are you just stuck tryna decide between 2 things y' like ?

 

More importantly, what is it that you want to present in yer music or perfs ?

Look at that 1st & go w/ what gets you closest to that, then build whatever you need after.

[Big Dave]

One other option I'm thinking of is getting a low cost mixer so I can run two guitars through one amp. Any thoughts????

 

If I may ask... why? Do you play two guitars at the same time?

 

If you just don't want to bother unplugging one to plug in another, get an A/B/Y box, a simple and inexpensive thing. If you have different EQ or level considerations for different guitars in the same amp, an EQ pedal, or something like the Seymour Duncan Pickup Booster can even them out in EQ or level... or some people use overdrive pedals that get closer to being preamps (like the Xotic BB Preamp Overdrive, as used for this purpose by people like Jon Herington from Steely Dan) dedicated to do both. A mixer is a strange choice to introduce into a guitar to amp environment.

Well looking at a mixer so I can play with one amp when my son-in-law comes around. He plays also and it is fun to jam with him. Got a 10W and a 25W now, would like to run both guitars through the 25W.

[Big Dave]

I don't understand the basis of yer Q.

How do they seems comparable to you ?

Are you just stuck tryna decide between 2 things y' like ?

 

More importantly, what is it that you want to present in yer music or perfs ?

Look at that 1st & go w/ what gets you closest to that, then build whatever you need after.

Well "D" I'm only 2 yrs into playing. And "whammy" still catches my ear, and a 12 string makes an incredible sound. So I'm trying to venture out and expand. I currently play an SG 400 pro -1966 model- with coil splitters. I also have an epiphone les paul special ii that I was going to trade in to help with the cost. Just wondering if I get another guitar, which direction I should go.

[Scott Fraser]

One other option I'm thinking of is getting a low cost mixer so I can run two guitars through one amp. Any thoughts????

 

Don't. Impedance mismatch. It's not only wrong in theory, I can attest, from personal experience, running the mixer line output from my rack into my Marshal amp, it just doesn't sound right or good. You lose a lot of low end & dynamics don't translate well.

[whitefang]

THIS thread sure wandered off the path. Anyway, I thought, to address the original issue----

 

Why not get a Gibson EDS-1275 and solve both problems at once!

Whitefang

[Winston Psmith]

THIS thread sure wandered off the path. Anyway, I thought, to address the original issue----

 

Why not get a Gibson EDS-1275 and solve both problems at once!

Whitefang

 

I support this idea! However, the 1275 doesn't come with a Vibrato Bar standard on either neck; you'd have to add one.

 

[Scott Fraser]

I support this idea! However, the 1275 doesn't come with a Vibrato Bar standard on either neck; you'd have to add one.

 

Right. What's another pound on a 20 pound guitar, eh?

[Larryz]

<---OK, how about bridging [pun intended] the gap with this baby! 12 String whammy...

[Scott Fraser]

<---OK, how about bridging [pun intended] the gap with this baby! 12 String whammy...

 

Solved!

[Danzilla]

I support this idea! However, the 1275 doesn't come with a Vibrato Bar standard on either neck; you'd have to add one.

 

Right. What's another pound on a 20 pound guitar, eh?

 

Paging Dr. Bigsby... Dr. Bigsby, white courtesy phone, please.

 

http://www.abalonevintage.com/1959_Gibson_EDS1275_double_neck_guitar_white_.jpg

[whitefang]

I support this idea! However, the 1275 doesn't come with a Vibrato Bar standard on either neck; you'd have to add one.

 

Well, I thought of it since the guy didn't sound married to the idea of a tremolo. But then, as Larry pointed out, you CAN always add one.

Whitefang

[p90jr]

One other option I'm thinking of is getting a low cost mixer so I can run two guitars through one amp. Any thoughts????

 

If I may ask... why? Do you play two guitars at the same time?

 

If you just don't want to bother unplugging one to plug in another, get an A/B/Y box, a simple and inexpensive thing. If you have different EQ or level considerations for different guitars in the same amp, an EQ pedal, or something like the Seymour Duncan Pickup Booster can even them out in EQ or level... or some people use overdrive pedals that get closer to being preamps (like the Xotic BB Preamp Overdrive, as used for this purpose by people like Jon Herington from Steely Dan) dedicated to do both. A mixer is a strange choice to introduce into a guitar to amp environment.

 

 

Well looking at a mixer so I can play with one amp when my son-in-law comes around. He plays also and it is fun to jam with him. Got a 10W and a 25W now, would like to run both guitars through the 25W.

 

$5.19 solution

 

Hosa YPP-111 - 6" Y Cable, 1/4" TS Male-Dual 1/4" TS Female, 6" Long

 

Though, two guitars in one amp channel... I can't imagine it sounding ideal.

 

 

[p90jr]

I bought a Mexican Fender Stratocaster with a whammy when I needed a Strat for a gig and mine was lent out to someone who was away on Ebay for $200. Solid guitar... and the only Strat I've owned where the pickups and everything were acceptable and I had to replace nothing.

 

I play a lot of electric 12 string at gigs, on a 90's Danelectro that cost me $250 used.

 

So, for $450, you could have good, workable examples of both...

[Big Dave]

Well thanks guys for all the info. At this point I'm leaning towards the 12 string. My amp's got a 'tremolo' setting on it. And as stated before, there is nothing that can produce a 12 string sound EXCEPT a 12 string guitar. And after future reading on the inter-web. Two guitars into one amp doesn't sound like a good idea, unless the amp is a two channel. SO either find a 2 channel amp or use the 10W and the 25W and just adjust them. Thanks for all the info and advise. Dave

[Scott Fraser]

Well thanks guys for all the info. At this point I'm leaning towards the 12 string. My amp's got a 'tremolo' setting on it.

 

Amp 'Tremolo' is a completely different thing than the vibrato induced by a 'whammy' type bridge. Tremolo is a periodic variation in volume. Whammy, or vibrato, affects only pitch. So don't think of that as a substitute if you're wanting a whammy effect.

 

Two guitars into one amp doesn't sound like a good idea, unless the amp is a two channel. SO either find a 2 channel amp or use the 10W and the 25W and just adjust them. Thanks for all the info and advise. Dave

 

That is the whole reason amps were designed with two channels back in the 50's & 60's. Two guitarists could plug into one amp & have separate volume & tone controls available.

[whitefang]

Sure. Back in my "basement band's" day, that was often the case.

Whitefang