Won't Get Fooled Again

[Dave Bryce]

Always wanted to play this with my band, finally talked them into it.

 

Got a great program on the PC3 for the signature organ sound, but I'm mixed about what to do besides that. I could do piano, regular organ, horns (live version!), some combination of the above on the Kronos. Anybody else play this with a band? What do you do?

 

I told our drummer that I don't think he needs a click track to follow the pulse of the keyboard's LFO...but that it does mean I'm going to have to play pretty loud so he can hear it.

 

dB

[Moonglow]

I used that exact PC3 program, it is stellar! Our drummer had a hard time syncing with it, and we were using in-ear monitors. After the intro, I recall having to play some of those organ parts manually, although I tried to play as "mechanical" as possible.

[TommyRude]

 

 

Suggest to stick with the original, doesn't get much better. Sounds like you already have it, but if not this fine chap has isolated the track.

 

[video:youtube]

[RedKey]

We play it every few shows as a closer. I learned to play it manually and it really makes dealing with the drummer a pleasurable experience. It also doesn't need a 2nd LFO. The Nord Stage (1 & 2) synth section have organ waveforms that nail the tone when run through a filter LFO... done!

[Dave Bryce]

I've actually been playing it manually to learn it - easier to slow it down that way. I have considered playing it like that..but the PC3 program sounds really good. I tweaked the gain and added a bit of distortion, and it really sings.

 

Really fun part to play.

 

dB

[Griswold]

Dave I have to agree. I love that sound on the PC3. I know lots of keyboards have a patch for this but I think the Kurz sounds fantastic. You can edit the program to adjust the effect rate also in case you want to play this at a different tempo.

 

BTW I believe my BURN even has this effect.

 

Larry

[stoken6]

When we did it I had a gating effect, and "played" long sustained chords, as others have suggesting. (Nord Stage 2 - tremolo effect at max, and a slow filter LFO on organ waveform as per RedKey).

 

We solved the problem of drummer-sync by giving our drummer a dedicated IEM feed (nothing complex - my Rolls PM351 has two headphones outs, so he got the keys-heavy mix I was using). He complained to the band about not having a click, but privately admitted to me that this was just a poly

 

Fun to play - I actually charted out the whole organ part, which included timechecks on the score to allow me to pick up the transcription where I had left off.

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

[Jon G]

I posted this already in another Fooled Again thread but I had to recreate that sound for a concert at NAMM several years ago using a Yamaha Motif XS7. Instead of a filter on the organ patch, I used an auto wah effect; it sounded more like the original to me.

 

I did use a chord arpeggio to play the part in the intro and breakdown section but turned it off and played manually when the band kicked in. Due to time constraints, I had to shorten the intro to 4 bars and the middle section to maybe 8 bars.

 

The first time I played that song was in a band in college. I was playing a P5 and used the filter and LFO.

[Moonglow]

I told our drummer that I don't think he needs a click track to follow the pulse of the keyboard's LFO...

How would one go about syncing a click track with the LFO? I understand that the tempo/rate of the click track would have to match the LFO rate, but when we tried to do this, the hard part was to get the first "pulse" of the LFO to always start precisely with the first beat of the click track. Even when we thought we initially nailed it, the two rates would eventually diverge, due to being milliseconds off.

[Dave Bryce]

How would one go about syncing a click track with the LFO?

I'd probably run a one measure sequence on the PC3 at the same tempo as the pulses in the program with four quantized quarter note clicks, assign the drum kit making the clicks to the aux outs, then use my Alesis Micro Cue Amp for his phones.

 

the hard part was to get the first "pulse" of the LFO to always start precisely with the first beat of the click track. Even when we thought we initially nailed it, the two rates would eventually diverge, due to being milliseconds off.

Hmmm.

 

I do admit having assumed that the cycle starts when the note is pressed (as opposed to being free running), so I did figure that I would be able to match the tempos pretty easily. My DSI synths can lock the LFOs to the sequencer with just about any clock value - I guess in my head I just figured the Kurz could as well. I could be wrong.

 

Well, since I ended up deciding it wasn't worth trying that for just one tune, this won't be a problem.

 

dB

[AnotherScott]

I posted this already in another Fooled Again thread but I had to recreate that sound for a concert at NAMM several years ago using a Yamaha Motif XS7. Instead of a filter on the organ patch, I used an auto wah effect; it sounded more like the original to me.

When I first played this, on a CX3 in the 70s, I remember trying it through a Morley wah pedal (no auto, just moved by foot up and down through part of its range), sounded good. Then I was patching it to my Roland SH7 with the filter on the LFO, that became my method. A wah pedal is largely a filter sweep pedal with a particular resonance anyway. But then I swapped out my CX3 for a real Hammond chop and 122. I just played it on the Hammond, no processing available. Still went over just as well. Moral: No one cares. ;-)

 

On the related topic, I've always just played it by hitting every chord. Practically speaking, it was my only option at the time anyway. But then there's no issue with keeping people in sync to a track or a click or whatever.

[Dave Bryce]

At this point, I'm wondering if it might not be a bad idea to keep a similar sounding organ (without the pulse) loaded on the Kronos so I can switch between the LFO sound (maybe for the intro and solo) and then play manually during the verses, choruses and solos.

 

dB

[tarkus]

The Korg Triton extreme has it as a preset arpeggio in the programs under Drawbar Organ (it's either Drawbar Organ I or II).

I'll upload a video of this later with my added tweaks.

[richforman]

There's a great patch on my Kronos 2 but I am not sure if it was included out of the box or added by the previous user, I bought mine used. Anyway I play the whole song on that but then I took an isolated sample of the entire keyboard track from YouTube, and just use the part of that starting where it's the synth-only section of the instrumental breakdown toward the end, I clipped it to start just when the last drum crash lands leading into the section and trigger it right at that point live, and just let it run until the drums come back in with all the crazy drum fills. I could never recreate that synth solo live, always gave me trouble. Even the Who themselves I think just play back the record at that point in concert so I don't feel bad about playing the sample.

[The Real MC]

I was at a rehearsal and the suggestion came up to play WGFA. I had my Vox Continental there and asked the guitar player if he had a wah pedal. He brought out his vintage Vox "Clyde McCoy" wah pedal - that NAILED the sound.

 

We never did play it out. Today if I were to pull that off, I would use my OBX which has a wonderful filter resonance for that song.

[AnotherScott]

At this point, I'm wondering if it might not be a bad idea to keep a similar sounding organ (without the pulse) loaded on the Kronos so I can switch between the LFO sound (maybe for the intro and solo) and then play manually during the verses, choruses and solos.

Sounds like a good plan. I seem to remember a WGFA patch on the Kronos, which did have the pulse, but since it did retrigger with every key hit, you could play it "manually" just as well.

[The Real MC]

Even the Who themselves I think just play back the record at that point in concert so I don't feel bad about playing the sample.

 

Yep, they always used tape playback for that song. There is concert footage back in the early 70s where it was obviously tape playback.

[Moonglow]

At this point, I'm wondering if it might not be a bad idea to keep a similar sounding organ (without the pulse) loaded on the Kronos so I can switch between the LFO sound (maybe for the intro and solo) and then play manually during the verses, choruses and solos.

 

dB

Exactly what I did, brother Dave.

[mate stubb]

I used to play this on a Hammond. I would jam the preset cancel key down, hold sustained chords, and gate them using the preset key. It sounded great - no filter sweep, but nobody cared.

[AnotherScott]

I used to play this on a Hammond. I would jam the preset cancel key down, hold sustained chords, and gate them using the preset key. It sounded great - no filter sweep, but nobody cared.

Clever, but is there any advantage to doing that over just hitting the chords on all the beats, whether sonically or in effort required?

[mate stubb]

I used to play this on a Hammond. I would jam the preset cancel key down, hold sustained chords, and gate them using the preset key. It sounded great - no filter sweep, but nobody cared.

Clever, but is there any advantage to doing that over just hitting the chords on all the beats, whether sonically or in effort required?

 

It's easier, and more precise as well. Playing the chords manually works too, but the gate effect is not as strong.

[Dave Bryce]

I seem to remember a WGFA patch on the Kronos, which did have the pulse, but since it did retrigger with every key hit, you could play it "manually" just as well.

I have a program for Kronos that does it - was definitely from a third party bank of classic sounds (the 3rd Impression end sequence also came with the same bank - spot on!), not a stock sound.

 

The Kurz one is better, though. Funny thing about that patch - it indicates that the MW adds distortion, but it doesn't seem to, and I can't find any routing where it's assigned. I wanted more, so I just added an FX block and did it that way.

 

dB

[ABECK]

I recently played a cover show for the Whos Next album. I used a click for Baba, but not for Wont Get Fooled Again. In fact, I only used my LFO/Tempo based patch on the intro and the solo. During the meat of the song, I played that part live, using the same basic sound as the intro, but removed the tempo modulation and shortened up the sustain quite a bit. This allowed the tempo of the song to breath a little, based on the energy.

 

[Dave Bryce]

I recently played a cover show for the Whos Next album. I used a click for Baba, but not for Wont Get Fooled Again. In fact, I only used my LFO/Tempo based patch on the intro and the solo. During the meat of the song, I played that part live, using the same basic sound as the intro, but removed the tempo modulation and shortened up the sustain quite a bit. This allowed the tempo of the song to breath a little, based on the energy.

Yep, I'm leaning that way as well...and brother Moonglow says he did it that way, too.

 

The cool part? I get to try whatever I choose live tomorrow night. No rehearsal. Yeah, baby.

 

dB

[ABECK]

I tweaked the gain and added a bit of distortion, and it really sings.

dB

 

Totally agree. I run mine through the Ventilator...great to get some dirt in there.

[EscapeRocks]

Interesting topic. I do this song using Mainstage. For the basic intro/solo stuff I use the audio FX "slicer". The organ I use a guitar amp sim in MS to add drive/dirt and the whole thing runs thru my ElectroHarmonix LesterK for to round it out.

 

As others have mentioned, I, too play the meat of the song live with the LFO/Slicer effect on.

Works for me.

 

No click track on this one.

 

When I used to do Baba....I had a pedal setup to tap tempo. Luckily our drummer is rock solid stable in that department and didn't stray much, if at all, from the initial tempo, so I didn't have to really adjust.