Advice on recording keys

[nickd]

In the next few weeks, I'm going to be doing some recording in a small pro studio.

 

It's the first time for a LONG time I've done any recording other than piano, so I'm looking for any technical tips (for me as a keyboard player - there'll be an engineer handling all the recording stuff).

 

The project is a jazz/broken beats band. I'll be playing my Kurzweil SP4-7, mostly Rhodes sounds (aiming for that Herbie 70s sound), and there's a bass player and drummer.

 

So, do I just give the engineer a stereo feed, pick a sound a like, and get them to EQ everything flat as a starting point? Presumably might make sense to take all the reverb off the sound so it goes dry? Anything else?

 

Thanks...

[Baldwin Funster]

Personally, i would record in mono and let the mixer create the stereo at mixing time. If you record in kurzs stereo, the guitarist records in digitech stereo, the singer has a stereo effect he insists on what do you have? All layered together you have stereo madness that is hell to mix. The studio may have a top line bricasti or lexicon that they cant use because of all the effects already printed.

[kelp]

"GIRATS" - get it right at the source. You should be presenting the sound you want and the sound that fits the band. It's the engineer's job to capture that. If your sound is EQ'd and reverb'd then that's the sound. Now, there may be adjustments from there as you run through material.

 

Depending on your relationship with the engineer you may not want to leave those creative decisions to them. Similarly, they may not want to make those decisions! As an engineer myself I much prefer the artist to have a goal and vision coming in rather than giving me a blank slate. A producer, on the other hand, may have a different opinion.

[Stokely]

Caveats: I'm far from pro, and I also haven't done any recording in a studio outside my house in ages!

 

I would agree that it would be best to record dry, or at least a dry copy, since they might have access to better/different fx than those in the Kurz. Edit: that partly depends on how much access you guys have to the mix, trust levels etc.

 

I'd also consider recording the midi along with any audio...that way the sound could be changed out, or the performance tweaked later, velocity slightly adjusted, etc. Granted, these things might be a bit of a touchy subject ("You changed my performance!?!")

 

Audio, I'd normally think stereo...the sound might change quite a bit in mono. You can do both if you want, especially if your Kurz has multiple outs.

[nickd]

Thanks for the tips... I don't know the studio or the engineer, so will have to just see how it goes on the day, I think.

[Reezekeys]

In this day of midi and DAWs, you have the choice of spending a little more time & effort to allow you more control over the final result. You could of course just hook up your audio output, record, and be done with it. It's probably best to keep the eq flat as it's gonna be messed with at mix time if the engineer is competent. I find most Rhodes patches overly bassy which, while being more realistic on a live gig, needs to be tamed for a recording project. I would probably not add verb to the sound that's another mix-time decision. However, to me the sound of a Rhodes includes a funky tube amp & cab (or sim). And, might you want to do a stereo tremolo effect? Herbie's Rhodes sound had some of that. I see the Kurz has amp sims and I'm assuming it can do the stereo tremolo effect too. If you're happy with how those built-in effects sound then patch them in, record in stereo with eq flat and no verb, and you're done.

 

If you're interested in my method, which assumes you have a DAW and some editing skills, let me know. If I went into detail now, this post would be three times as long so I'll be happy to elaborate but only if it's interesting to you or anyone else! Just to forewarn, my way of working assumes that the studio uses a DAW and not tape, and you have some time beyond the session to get things fixed up properly a "one day deal" with a studio where you record & mix the same day does not work for this!

[mate stubb]

For Rhodes, wurli, clav - take advantage of the real guitar amps available instead of using amp sims.

 

Reverb is best left to mix time IMO. Your canned reverb may not sit well with everybody else's.

[Reezekeys]

Yes, a real amp beats a sim usually. I would not say that any real amp beats a sim. We don't know what's at the studio the OP is going to, or what he uses to amplify his Kurz. And using an amp (or two, if doing stereo tremolo) involves extra work with mic-ing and isolation leaving the final sonic result more in the hands of the studio and/or engineer. Which might be a good or very bad thing.

[timwat]

For Rhodes, wurli, clav - take advantage of the real guitar amps available instead of using amp sims.

 

Reverb is best left to mix time IMO. Your canned reverb may not sit well with everybody else's.

 

+1

 

Since you're using Kurz instead of real rhodes, spend some time trying different EP patches through the variety of tube guitar amps the studio has at it's disposal (and any you might be able to bring in. Best real rhodes sounds I ever laid down were through smaller Fender tube amps (including a Stage 73 through a Fender Champ).

 

But a Kurz is not a rhodes, so experiment before the red light goes on to identify the best combination - agreed that you want to go into it with as solid an idea of what you're going for as possible.

 

Also agreed reverb is best left to mix time. Stereo vibrato, auto panning, phasing, chorus and the like? Opinions will vary - the point of course is whatever treatment you print is what you have to work with and can't be undone.

 

Yes, lay down the MIDI as well if possible, it provides a lot of flexibility after the fact if you think you'll make use of it later.

 

just my 0.02

[nickd]

Thanks all, I'd not thought of trying a guitar amp.

[timwat]

Thanks all, I'd not thought of trying a guitar amp.

 

Historically speaking, it could be argued the Fender Rhodes was designed with the Fender Twin Reverb in mind. At the very least, the factory used the Twin Reverb to voice the pianos, and the result is they sounded best through that unit.

 

Nowadays, lots of options abound. But imagine what we'd have ended up with if the only amp available at that time was a Marshall full stack or Ampeg SVT.

[Stokely]

You'd have "And the Cradle Will Rock" from Van Halen

 

(though I think that was a wurlie maybe)

[Sven Golly]

Reverb is best left to mix time IMO ALWAYS.

 

Fixed.

[Steve Nathan]

The answer to this question is "depends"

First of all, who's in charge? Are you recording your band, or are you a "hired gun"? Are you paying? Is there a producer? Have you or the producer hired the engineer?

In other words, if you've agreed to work with a producer who has a relationship with an engineer, the producer typically determines what level of control the engineer has. Often the engineer is more of a partner to the producer and has a lot of input into how the sounds are shaped "going in". In such a case, you should be open to any and all suggestions of how to alter your sound, whether it's less reverb or more, EQed going in or flat, etc.

On the other hand, if you've rented a studio and hired an engineer to capture "your" music, then you are the determiner of what you want captured. If you create a patch that you feel best serves the song as you have it, then it is the engineer's job to do his or her best to record that sound the way you want it, stereo, mono, wet, dry, whatever.

[Baldwin Funster]

The thing with reverb and stereo effects is that you are creating the sensation of a room or at least some kind of cubic footage of space. What about the other instruments in the mix? How are they going to get into this room you have created? They cant crawl into your kurz and out the wires into the DAW. Your effects suggest a certain sized room and has a certain tone. This can be hard to match with another processor and you will pay for the studio time while the mixing engineer works the knobs to repair the situation. Yes i agree sometimes a certain effect is the focus of the song and needs to be in the recorded source. Usually but not always this is a modulation type effect but can be a verb, delay or compression effect. But if its just normal sounding keys playing in a normal sounding band playing a normal song, do the engineer and yourself a favor. Let the engineer do what hes paid the not so big bux to do. Engineer your effects. You can stand over his shoulder and ask for more dubbly and he may even let you turn the producers knob.

[Stokely]

Thanks all, I'd not thought of trying a guitar amp.

 

Historically speaking, it could be argued the Fender Rhodes was designed with the Fender Twin Reverb in mind. At the very least, the factory used the Twin Reverb to voice the pianos, and the result is they sounded best through that unit.

 

Nowadays, lots of options abound. But imagine what we'd have ended up with if the only amp available at that time was a Marshall full stack or Ampeg SVT.

 

Not to derail, but as a wannabe guitarist I've been spending time on "their" forums talking about amps, modeling gear etc. I've tried Impulse Responses with verb and with virtual guitar amps...I'm going to try putting the Logic Pro Rhodes through a virtual amp and cab and see how it sounds I suspect that perhaps the Rhodes already has a simulated "amp" baked into the sound though, so it might not sound too hot. Not sure if can be disabled but who knows.

 

Using 3rd party IRs instead of the built-in Logic "cabinets" for guitar made a HUGE difference. The Logic one was like a blanket over the "amp". I grabbed the free Redwirez Marshall 1960a IR, unfortunately I don't have a Fender amp IR other than the built-in.

 

Anywho, this is what happens when worlds collide! Back to the topic.

[Reezekeys]

In most cases I'm not gonna give an engineer a totally dry Rhodes to do as he or she wants with. I will put an amp sim and a touch of room on the basic sound (my projects have been mostly in-the-box). Not true reverb just what I think a properly miked amp setup might sound like in an isolation booth or in a studio room. That's the "air" and I consider it to be a part of the basic sound of the Rhodes not an extra "effect." I do the same with acoustic piano - put a touch of convolution reverb with a "recording studio" IR on it. I have also printed this ambience to a separate stereo track to allow the producer or engineer to mix to taste.

[Adam Burgess]

Do the track dry. If you need a bit reverb/drive for personal comfort, ask the engineer. Doesn't have to be recorded.

 

May as well do a MIDI track, too then re-amp/tweak as needed.

[Stokely]

Yeah the great thing about the midi track--beyond being able to use a different Rhodes altogether later if you like--is that you can do all of these things and lay them down on different tracks if you like. You obviously would need to know how to set this up in the Kurz, and you'd need to run midi back to it to trigger the sound again.

 

totally dry, no amp

dry, amp sound

room, amp sound

 

mono version, stereo etc etc

 

Can't say I've personally gone to that length but if there's any uncertainty about which to "print"---and you have the time to burn!--this is always an option.

[J Graul]

I've always given stereo signals.