Leslie 3300/System 21 or Vent/QSC K12 etc

[dakotakeys]

Greetings and salutations! I am in need of council and hope to learn from my betters.

I have a new (for me) Sk173 on top of a Korg SV-1. I love the tube warmth of the Korg on electric piano and that coupled w/the weighted keys makes me very happy.

 

The Hammond however sounds so tinny and unconvincing run through the PA in comparison that I rarely play it. I want to fix this situation and although I run it through a Vent2 it still doesn't have the grit I seek. I bought an Organ grinder pedal however we had issues with noise and my soundman doesn't like it from a noise level, despite my appreciation for the vintage circuit and sound.

 

This leads me to the present, I want to acquire my own tube amp/speakers. Issues with the vent/Lounsberry may be related to my amplification. I do have some challenges with getting a 3300 into a vehicle by myself (I usually meet the band at the event and won't always have a way to get a 3300 into the back of my vehicle, do any of you use ramps?).

 

I have been looking into the option of a System 21 top end (2101 Mk2) coupled with a QSC K12. Is anyone using anything comparable, what are your thoughts? Also, if I am using a vent, perhaps running it into the K12 will dramatically change my views, thereby not even needing a 2101?

 

I heard that the 2101 can mount on a speaker pole (although the pole adapter seems to be unavailable everywhere). In essence I'm hoping for some wisdom for a light(er) weight setup that will really improve my sk173's sound to instill tube goodness.

 

Can a 2101's tube be changed like a 3300's can? Thanks for any and all information related to the above- DK

[Doerfler]

so are you running your SV-1 and SK-1 directly into the PA? If the Vent doesn't have the "grit" you seek I'm not sure what you are looking for. If you can find a Speakeasy AMA (you can't) that before the Vent should do it. You need some sort of tube pre amp before the Vent I believe. Most guys would buy a Vent before a 2101, many, many discussions on this over the years.

[DaBous]

You also have the option of the Leslie Studio 12. Less power then the 3300 but more than the 2101.

 

At 85 lbs ( vs 125 ) it is easier for one person to handle. It has a switchable clean and tube channel. The tube channel has an AX7 so it can get pretty dirty if needed.

[Delaware Dave]

The Vent has a very authentic sounding overdrive; it is one of the features that sets it apart from the other leslie sims. If you don't think that the Vent is giving you the overdrive you need, one of two things come to mind:

 

1) the output of the SK1 is not hot enough to truly drive the Vent, which is not the likely scenario based on the others that I have heard including my XM2 which I'm assuming has similar output and adequately drives the Vent. Where do you have the master volume set on the SK1? I'd move the master volume up so that the signal is hot enough to adequately drive the Vent

 

2) You are not looking for an "authentic" leslie overdrive in which case I'm not sure what to advise since I don't know what sound it is that you are looking for from the overdrive so I'm not sure that a portable leslie will give you that overdrive sound either

[analogman1]

Hey Dakotakeys, our esteemed Hammond expert Jim Alfredson did a great review of an Organ Grinder pedal driving a Mini Vent.

 

If that aint' hot enough, you might wanna consider a flame thrower!!!

 

Search him out. His review and playing are fabulous.

 

By the way, I'm using the SV1 and a Hammond XK1C. Great combination!

 

 

 

[DenCV]

I am a converted totally tube vintage guy. I have an old tube leslie that is simple to roll onto the truck, but it very rarely goes out, just because the vent is that good, and much more convenient. I typically run my SK through my EV ZLX-12's, however, if I really trust the sound guy, I run direct in and depend on them for monitoring. An SK should have plenty of juice to to distort the vent, so something odd is going on. Make sure you aren't distorting the in on the vent instead of getting grind from the built ion overdrive. Also, it took a lot of tweaking to get where I am, time might be the better investment rather than running for new equipment.

 

[analogman1]

Also, it took a lot of tweaking to get where I am, time might be the better investment rather than running for new equipment.

 

Couldn't agree more. Don't get sidetracked with all the BS about "this clone better than that clone, etc."

 

Somebody always is trying to sell you something!!!

 

Dig in and really tweak the internal sim. If it still isn't happening, then consider something else. I've considered the vent/organ grinder combo...but then again, i get great sounds with software and so can't justify the extra cost of the 2 pedals..

 

I'd much rather upgrade my laptop organ setup and leave the XK1C for the "grab and go" quick setup. The way I have it tweaked, it sounds great to my ears. And I've owned a few Hammonds and Leslies over the years so I'm not a newcomer to "the sound"...

 

But I have gotten great results just by experimenting with what's already in the organ.

 

At the end of the day, it's your playing that will make the statement.

Not the extra level of grind or authenticity.

 

[BigJPatton]

My thoughts are this is a big hole in the market that somebody should fill- a truly portable Leslie that has the volume to keep up.

 

The Leslie Studio 12 comes in at 100 lbs and 27x21", too big and heavy for many (me), the Space Station is too small at 18x11" and under powered for louder bands.

 

Make the thing out of lightweight plastic, about 24x16" and screaming loud, like modern powered speaker volumes, and it would be a huge winner.

 

I understand that the OP is looking for tubes but that's not always needed in the amp, that sound quality can come from elsewhere in the chain. It's a small trade off for portability.

[dakotakeys]

Thank you all so much for your replies! DaveDoerfler, Dabous, Delaware Dave, analogman1, DenCV I'm very grateful for your input.

 

Last gig I played into a guitar tube amp and I was so happy with the grit. I really like real tubes. I think my problem though may be that I'm always running direct into a PA and not into an amp of my own. The sound is never what I'm looking for on the SK173. Does anyone play your organ into a guitar tube amp by any chance? I really like the look of the reissue Sovtek Electro Harmonix Tube Amp. https://goo.gl/zIa3jc

 

I have been reading a (ton) of forum posts from this site and elsewhere. I think that a nice powered speaker (seems that the QSC k12 gets a lot of raves) may make me change my mind about the sound of the vent and my grinder. Also I may be setting things up wrong on the vent.

 

As you mention denCV some additional time rather than gear will be very well spent. Jim Alfredson was very influential on my purchase of the Hammond rather than a Nord etc, also he helped me w/my research on the organ grinder. He's been an amazing help.

 

One challenge w/the grinder is that my power adapters don't fit, despite getting the recommended BOSS guitar pedal adapter. When I used it live we got a hum from it and I ended up removing it from the chain for the show. Since then I've been just using SK1 to vent. The best experience I've had was when I ran the works through the guitar tube amp cabinet, although I felt like I lost a lot of frequency range.

 

I wonder if any of you could comment on my idea of running the SK173 then vent2, then K12. I have a Mackie 8 channel that I can use for mixing with the SV-1 as well so that I can amplify them both with the K12. My radial JDI Duplex has been sitting idle however I'm wondering if this could also improve the output from the vent.

 

I'm very new to the organ side (been playing electric piano/wurly for so long) and I know what I'm looking for...just frustrated that my sound is still so "casio" sounding on stage when it comes to my organ sounds. Thanks for all your help, and especially your patience with my many questions, DK

 

[Aussie_Chicago]

I'm very happy with my DXR10's , running either my sk2 or SV-1 / Xk3c into a Vent 1 then to a Yam 6 channel. Take 1 set of outputs to the stage speakers, the other set to FOH. I tried the SSV3 but as others state, the sound is good but cant keep up on volume for me. I still occasionally use a chopped 147 via Speakeasy which is a great sound , but more work to set up and carry. I cant see why your not getting what you want out of the Sk/vent. Try loading Jim's tonewheel set into the Sk , start with the raw organ tone and start working forward to get the final sound.

[Delaware Dave]

My thoughts are this is a big hole in the market that somebody should fill- a truly portable Leslie that has the volume to keep up.

 

The Leslie Studio 12 comes in at 100 lbs and 27x21", too big and heavy for many (me), the Space Station is too small at 18x11" and under powered for louder bands.

 

Make the thing out of lightweight plastic, about 24x16" and screaming loud, like modern powered speaker volumes, and it would be a huge winner.

 

I understand that the OP is looking for tubes but that's not always needed in the amp, that sound quality can come from elsewhere in the chain. It's a small trade off for portability.

Motion Sound made the Low Pro and Pro3T. One piece is 55 pounds and the other piece is 27 pounds, so that they can be carried separately. total wattage of 175 watts (plenty loud) and the 3T has the pre-amp tube.

 

However in a vintage leslie the amp is a tube amp where as with the modern leslies (leslie 12, Motion Sound stuff) the amp is solid state. Does it make a difference?...... Yes it does. You need a tube front end as well as a tube back-end, rather than a tube front end and solid state amp driving it. The Motion Sound gets loud enough but at loud volume it also tends to get a little shrill because of the solid state amp whereas a tube amp will have that nice distortion breakup when pushed but not get shrill. My Motion Sound amp is much louder than my 122 but the 122 kills it for tone .....

[dakotakeys]

Aussie Chicago thanks a bunch. You've got a very similar setup as me, and you're doing it. This gives me confidence that that the issue is all me, with my setup of the vent, along with my use of the stock hammond presets, with a dash of "doesn't have a clue" for good measure I do know about Jim's tonewheel sets but haven't gotten to that: it's on my list before the next show. I think that I'll invest in one K12 speaker which I think I can handle re: weight (probably very similar to your Yamaha DXR speaker).

 

BigJPatton I appreciate your thoughts re: other options on the market. I really would love to invest in a smaller version of a 3300 with full tube, what you suggest as "a truly portable Leslie that has the volume to keep up.". I would love to buy a 3300 but my studio is downstairs and I would never be able to carry it up a winding staircase alone, let alone into my truck. It seems that the MS and 2101mk2 etc just don't quite cut it.

 

I'm going to load in Jim's tonewheel set, dial my vent back to factory presets, get the K12 and start from scratch. I'll try the grinder again for good measure and try to get the noise down. I'll report back w/my findings, thanks for all your great advice everybody, DK

[CEB]

Before you spend any money. Define for these gentlemen what your PA situation is. Type of cabinets, power, is it a three way EAW/ Crown powered system with subs and full line arrays or is it just a pair of Peavey SP-2s on pole stands.... etc...

 

Do you have a one person who always mixes? If so ask this guy:

1) Does he slap a Hi pass filter on your keys?

2) Or does he just not route your keys to the subs?

 

This is more common then you may think and will have an impact on how you organ sounds through the PA. If he doesn't want to tell you use the force choke. Both of these action will eliminate 200k and below from your keys. If he does not want to reveal his secrets force choke him. Unleash the true power of the dark side.

 

Stage amplification could help. Deadspots close to the stage area can be common when keys running direct only.

 

Do what you want. If you want to buy some new stuff that is great but make sure first that the soundguy isn't the problem. SK through the Vent direct to FOH should sound fine unless your PA is lacking.

 

Oh and yes use the Vent to set your base tone and goose it with the OD on the Hammond. And make sure to turn up the volume on the Hammond. You need to hit it pretty hard. The Vent does behave like a tube amp. Use the force.

[dakotakeys]

Darth Bader I'm laughing so hard w/the force choke recommendation...can't type...

I will unleash the dark side on the sound engineer and learn how my keys have been sabotaged until now! I will also completely revisit the force of the Hammond/Vent and use my jedi mind tricks to find the sound I seek. Seriously, thanks for your awesome post you made my day

[Barryjam]

For a moment, I thought a "force choke" was some kind of PA bypassing trick, which seemed impossible to me, and I was almost willing to search sound reinforcement sites for how this is done.

[analogman1]

For a moment, I thought a "force choke" was some kind of PA bypassing trick, which seemed impossible to me, and I was almost willing to search sound reinforcement sites for how this is done.

 

Berryjam, I thought the same thing! Had me scratching my head for a minute!

 

[HammondDave]

I've gigged with similar equipment. Had a Leslie 21 with an EV SXA360 and a speakeasy preamp, also gigged with the Vent and an EV. Both sound wonderful. It just depends on what the application is. There is nothing like the sound of a real rotating horn, but If you are playing in a moderate sized club you will have to mic it anyway, so you might as well use a Vent. The Vent is easier to find the sweet spot of overdrive, and you can change it easily... not so much on the Leslie 21.

 

IMHO, I would also avoid the QSC's. Not enough bass response at higher volumes. Check out the much more affordable and bett sounding EV's.

[DanL]

The Vent has a very authentic sounding overdrive; it is one of the features that sets it apart from the other leslie sims. If you don't think that the Vent is giving you the overdrive you need, one of two things come to mind:

 

1) the output of the SK1 is not hot enough to truly drive the Vent, which is not the likely scenario based on the others that I have heard including my XM2 which I'm assuming has similar output and adequately drives the Vent. Where do you have the master volume set on the SK1? I'd move the master volume up so that the signal is hot enough to adequately drive the Vent

 

The SK is more than adequate to drive the vent. I have to watch mine, anything much over half way up brings on the overload light on the vent. I don't mind it flashing on and off but constantly on is too hot of a signal.

[dakotakeys]

Thanks HammondDave for your thoughts about the QSC and that they don't have enough bass at higher volumes. Which model of EV do you recommend instead? Given all the information I've learned here I am planning on getting some powered speakers and running my SV1 into a smaller mixer, along with the SK173 into (tube, perhaps), then into vent2, then into mixer. I will then feed the stereo mix into the powered speakers. I had been thinking of the QSC k12s but if they're not recommended I'll look into EV, Yamaha or other. Wow having just looked at B&H the EVs come w/soft case and are indeed way cheaper than the QSC. These are the models I'm referring to Electro-Voice ZLX-12P-US 12" /// Electro-Voice ZLX-15P-US 15" Two-Way Powered Loudspeaker

[bennyray]

Pro Audiostar in NY will give you the best deals if you as for a discount. Like buying a car. I bought 2 ZLX 15 for $750. The ELX models are a wood cabinet I think. They work great for me.

[Delaware Dave]

I have the ELX112P, I could walk hammond bass with it; the ELX115P has bass for days....

[WesG]

I heard that the 2101 can mount on a speaker pole

 

Oh my God. A pole-mounted Leslie? Where do I get one?!?! I have an 8' pole that'll take 100 lbs. This would be great in larger venues in conjunction with a normal Leslie!

 

Wes

[Delaware Dave]

retail $1695...... and a 4" bass driver... still interested?

[WesG]

HuuuMMMM..but it goes on a POLE.

 

Yeah, the price puts it out of my realistic target. But, boy, it sure sounds like fun. Maybe I can get a pole mount for a Motion Pro 3T or something.

 

Wes

[dakotakeys]

I also really like the idea of the leslie on a pole!

Here's a pic:

2101 stand

 

Since learning about recommendations for Electrovoice I've been reading a ton. Seems like the ELX is more pricey and heavier, but has more bass than the ZLX series.

The K12s are even more (quite a lot) more expensive than the ELX and have less bass? Not sure why the higher price, is anyone using a k12 setup on stage with your keyboard rig, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

 

I do like the rear panel and seeming indestructibility of the k12 vs the wood of the ELX, and the carrying bags for the QSC really seem to make them easy to transport vs the covers of the ELX.

 

Re: subs, are you using them for your keyboard rigs for either the K12 or ELX?

Last, what about JBL Eon or Mackie 450? Used to be they were the best! Now I hardly hear about them compared to QSC and EV. I want to make sure I make the right decision the first time!

 

I've given up (for now) on any leslie purchase and I'm going to get a speaker so that I can really hear and dial in my live sound on the SV1/sk173 and vent. Thanks for all the advice and ideas I think I'll be happier with my tone and also the cost looks like it will be far less than the system 21 rig.

 

I do still want a 3300 someday!! but at this point with my studio downstairs and no flatbed, minivan or ramps, it would be a major stretch.

[BigJPatton]

2101 on a pole will only get you more dispersion and volume of the sound it can produce, which is not enough bass, the pole won't help that issue.

 

So I see no reason to bother, you'd still have to carry another amp.

[WesG]

I don't think anybody would seriously think the 2101 would be an acceptable substitute for a real Leslie. But it would be an awesome way to augment one. The whole game is dispersion. Put your mic'd 147 in the PA and throw a couple of 2101s on poles. Let the nearest 50 feet of the audience basque in the swirly goodness of twin Leslie action.

[FreshTrooperXBL]

I actually use a K12 as a bass amp with my indie-rock band. I put my P bass into a Sansamp (a mild compressor/EQ/OD) to boost it to be loud enough on the line in setting. With new strings on the bass and the right eq settings on the Sansamp, the K12 can wallop nicely when it needs to. Done plenty of outdoor shows with it and it's done well.

 

Done some quieter keyboard jams with it, but they were quiet.