Connecting Mutiple Keyboards in a DAW

[Husker]

Hi,

 

This past summer, I purchased Sonar as my first DAW, as well as a Roland FA-08 and a Tascam 4x4. I have not yet used the Tascam, as the Roland has a decent audio interface built in (I simply connect the Roland via USB to the computer). I have spent most the last few months learning the keyboard only, knowing I did not have a great DAW computer. However, I am building a PC for a dedicated DAW soon, so I will be getting into learning the Sonar piece shortly. The only things I have really done in Sonar is test making some simply one track recordings, and playing some VSTs (although I'm still have a ton of questions about what little I have done).

 

As I'm building the DAW, I would like to set it up for the long term. I have found no reason thus far to use the Tascam interface, as I only have the one Roland keyboard. That being said, my next purchase (maybe sometime next year) will be a Moog Sub Phatty - I'm pretty obsessed with analog synths.

 

I actually have no idea how I would connect the two (Roland and Moog) together - what I would want to do is use the Roland as the controller for the Moog, but somehow make it so that I could record either into Sonar. Would it be best to set up the DAW now with the Tascam? If so, how would the Moog, Roland, and Tascam be set up? Or, could I still just someone connect the Moog to the Roland and still use the Rolands built in AI.

 

Sorry for the basic questions, but I am really new to all of this.

[Markyboard]

In order to get the Moog audio into your DAW you will need to hook it's audio output up to an audio interface and the USB directly to your PC for midi. It looks like the Roland will accept up to a pair of external audio inputs so you can hook the Moog directly to the Roland. However you may have better performance (lower latency) and flexibility using the Tascam. You didn't specify the model but no matter as I'm not familiar with it anyway - but something to consider. Once you have both audio and midi connected between your Roland and Moog to the PC it should be easy to control one with the other by configuring your DAW track Inputs and outputs.

 

 

[Husker]

Hmm. OK.

 

 

 

I have the Tascam 4x4.

 

So I would plug in the 1/4 output of the Roland to the Tascam. (Is this stereo?) I would plug the 1/4 output of the Moog to the Tascam. I would plug the Tascam into the computer via USB. I would then have to plug both the Moog and the Roland into the computer via USB as well?

[Tusker]

What MB said .... but,

 

I'm pretty obsessed with analog synths.

 

... as obsessions go, one of the best.

[Husker]

I looked at that diagram in the Roland FA-08 reference guide - now I'm more confused then ever.

 

You have to plug a keyboard in via UBS to do midi? You cannot use midi with the 1/4 TRS through an audio interface?

[Tusker]

I would then have to plug both the Moog and the Roland into the computer via USB as well?

 

Just know that lots of arrangements are possible once you get the Moog. For example, if you want to have a midi connection between the Moog and Roland, to play Moog sounds from the Roland, you could make that connection through a) the computer, or b) directly between the two.

 

 

 

[Markyboard]

I looked at that diagram in the Roland FA-08 reference guide - now I'm more confused then ever.

 

You have to plug a keyboard in via UBS to do midi? You cannot use midi with the 1/4 TRS through an audio interface?

 

First, good on you for looking at the reference guide; many would not have gotten this far. Don't worry, what seems confusing now will one day seem obvious.

 

Midi is a digital type communication standard and does not come through the 1/4" TRS cable/connectors.

 

Midi can come from the dedicated midi connectors (separate midi in and midi out) or can interface via USB (handling both the input and output). Some midi capable devices have one or both. Your Roland and Moog Sub Phatty happen to have both types.

 

Audio comes from the 1/4" TRS connectors but may come from USB as well - depending on the design. Your Roland is designed to send/receive midi and send audio via its USB port. The Moog Sub Phatty only sends midi via the USB cable - not Audio.

 

Digest that and let us know what additional questions you have.

 

 

[Husker]

Awesome, thank you. I am learning, and am thankful for the people who try to help out a total beginner.

 

I would see no need to do Midi out of the Moog. If it does not send audio, then I must use the Tascam for this purpose.

 

So, if I wanted to use the Tascam:

 

1) Tascam USB to the DAW computer USB

2) TRS out from the Roland to the Tascam. (There is only one TRS input on the Tascam per channel - does this mean it is mono) for audio

2) TRS out from the Moog to another channel on the Tascam for audio

3) Midi out of the Roland to the Midi in of the Tascam.

 

With things connected this way, I could record audio and midi from the Roland, and audio only from the Moog. Correct?

 

In order to use the Roland to control the Moog, I would plug the Midi Out of the Roland into the Midi In of the Moog. I could still record the audio out of the Moog into the Daw (through the Tascam) as the only "midi" data is flowing from the Roland to the Moog. Correct?

 

I assume I set up the DAW (I bought Sonar, still learning it), and using the Tascam driver I can set what "input" (Moog, Roland, Roland midi) to actually record?

[Markyboard]

 

I would see no need to do Midi out of the Moog. If it does not send audio, then I must use the Tascam for this purpose.

 

Well like I said you could connect from the Moog to one of the Roland audio inputs. But either way will work

 

 

 

So, if I wanted to use the Tascam:

 

1) Tascam USB to the DAW computer USB

2) TRS out from the Roland to the Tascam. (There is only one TRS input on the Tascam per channel - does this mean it is mono) for audio

 

Yes - but you can use 2 mono channels to preserve your stereo if desired.

 

2) TRS out from the Moog to another channel on the Tascam for audio

3) Midi out of the Roland to the Midi in of the Tascam.

 

With things connected this way, I could record audio and midi from the Roland, and audio only from the Moog. Correct?

Yes correct - this will work. When you configure your DAW I/O you should see the Tascam Midi ports available (both input and output). For audio you should see Tascam USB channels 1-4 available. You may be able to configure these as 4 mono channels or 2 stereo pairs.

 

In order to use the Roland to control the Moog, I would plug the Midi Out of the Roland into the Midi In of the Moog. I could still record the audio out of the Moog into the Daw (through the Tascam) as the only "midi" data is flowing from the Roland to the Moog. Correct?

 

Again , correct (and you call yourself a beginner? )

 

When you're recording your Roland you will not want to hear the Moog so you should set the Moog to a different midi channel (2 for example) assuming the Roland is set for midi channel 1.

 

 

 

I assume I set up the DAW (I bought Sonar, still learning it), and using the Tascam driver I can set what "input" (Moog, Roland, Roland midi) to actually record?

 

Yes - in your DAW maybe under preferences you can see all the midi i/o available as well as the audio channels. You will most likely need to enable the channels you wish to use.

 

Now I'm trying not to throw too much at you as you seem to be quickly grasping the concepts. The alternative connection method I suggested will work as well and may give you a bit more flexibility. Even though you don't need the Moog sending midi to the DAW it will be easier to manage whether the Roland is controlling itself or the Moog by connecting the Moog via USB to the DAW as well.

 

OK - enough for now - go study for the upocoming mid-terms

[Husker]

 

Thank you. I think I'm getting it. I'm ready for the midterms and the next lesson whenever you feel like responding again.

 

When I mentioned to control the Moog with the Roland (midi out of the Roland into the Midi in of the Moog), you said "When you're recording your Roland you will not want to hear the Moog so you should set the Moog to a different midi channel (2 for example) assuming the Roland is set for midi channel 1." This lost me - why would it be recording the Roland? In this case the Roland is sending Midi to the Moog, which is then sending audio to the DAW through the Tascam. I guess I could understand how the midi would flow if the Moog was connected via USB.

 

 

Next question - you mentioned your alternate connection.

 

Is this connectiong the audio out of the Moog to the audio in of the Roland (which it does have)? I assume Roland USB to the computer and no Tascam. What is the benefit/flexibility of this method (outside of less cables)?

 

or

 

Still use the Tascam for Moog audio and still connect the Moog USB to DAW?

 

Again, I appreciate you taking the time to answer these questions.

 

[Markyboard]

 

When I mentioned to control the Moog with the Roland (midi out of the Roland into the Midi in of the Moog), you said "When you're recording your Roland you will not want to hear the Moog so you should set the Moog to a different midi channel (2 for example) assuming the Roland is set for midi channel 1." This lost me - why would it be recording the Roland? In this case the Roland is sending Midi to the Moog, which is then sending audio to the DAW through the Tascam. I guess I could understand how the midi would flow if the Moog was connected via USB.

Sorry for the confusion. If your intent is to record the Roland into your DAW and you happen to have the midi cable connected between the Roland and the Moog as well, you would hear the Moog sound at the same time as the Roland; but only if the Roland and Moog are set to the same midi channel.

 

 

 

 

Next question - you mentioned your alternate connection.

 

Is this connectiong the audio out of the Moog to the audio in of the Roland (which it does have)? I assume Roland USB to the computer and no Tascam. What is the benefit/flexibility of this method (outside of less cables)?

 

or

 

Still use the Tascam for Moog audio and still connect the Moog USB to DAW?

 

Yes, by connecting the audio out of the Moog to the audio input of the Roland you can eliminate the Tascam altogether. It's one less piece of equipment and therefore simpler. The only downside to this may be that the audio quality is somewhat diminished (although I really doubt it) and possibly added latency. Latency has to do with how much delay you hear between playing a note and hearing it through your monitors/headphones. But let's stop here for now with the suggestion that you try either configuration option you wish and then see if it needs improvement.

[Husker]

Thank you.

[Husker]

Sorry to bring this thread back up, but I am close to buying a Slim Phatty, and I wanted to make sure it would work for me, and that I would know how to connect it.

 

Currently, I have a Roland FA08 and a Tascam US 4x4. I have the two audio outs of the Roland FA08 into inputs 1 and 2 of the Tascam. I have the Midi Out of the Roland FA08 into the Midi In of the Tascam. I was unable to use the USB out of the FA08 to the computer, as I had some weird ground noise I was unable to resolve.

 

Everything works fine in this configuration.

 

If I buy the Slim Phatty, I would connect the Audio out of the Phatty to input 3 of the Tascam. Easy enough. However, I am a bit confused on the Midi.

 

First question - I assume I would plug the Midi out of the Roland to the Phatty - would that be the Midi In or the Midi Through of the Phatty?

 

I assume the Midi Out of the Phatty would go to the Midi In of the Tascam.

 

 

Second question - Do I need to set Midi channels on both devices? I'm a bit confused on whether I would need to set the FA08 differently if I am recording MIDI to the Daw vs. just controlling the Phatty.

 

Thank you for any help you guys can provide. I've never done this before.

[ElmerJFudd]

It depends what you are trying to achieve.

 

If you're not going to use USB MIDI on the FA-08, get yourself a proper USB MIDI interface - like MOTU Micro Lite. 4 in 4 out. Turn local control off on the FA-08 and use it to play all the hardware synths you'll add to your set up using the interface and/or your DAW to route. MIDI out 1 on the interface will go to your FA-08 and out 2 to your Slim Phatty. Audio outs from both to ins on the Tascam.

 

Just a suggestion. If the Phatty is the last hardware synth you'll add. A MOTU Fastlane is a cheaper option. Or you can solve your grounding issue on your PC/FA and use MIDI io on the Tascam for the Phatty.

 

[Husker]

I guess I am just trying to achieve controlling the Phatty with the FA08, and still use the Roland to "record" midi into the Daw.

 

I was not aware of the midi interfaces (I am really new to all of this). Is this just some type of "switcher"?

[ElmerJFudd]

Yes, the you can think of a 2 by X MIDI interface as sort of a switcher or router or patchbay for MIDI. It's going to give you the most options when using 5 pin MIDI io. Pick up 4 MIDI cables of the length you require while you're at it.

 

note: you might also pull off basic functionality for what you want to do using ins and outs on what you have setting MIDI channels... although I'm not sure it's easier to explain... or as flexible.

[Husker]

OK, trying to understand here:

 

The Midi out of the FA08 would go to one of the Midi Ins of the Midi interface?

 

THe Midi out of the the Phatty would also go to one of the Midi ins of the Midi interface?

 

And the midi outs of the interface go to both devices?

 

[Husker]

No, I guess that can't be right...

[ElmerJFudd]

Sure MIDI out FA to MOTU MIDI 1 in.

And MIDI out 1 of MOTU to FA MIDI in.

Local control off on FA - let's you play and record and play back

 

Do the same with the Phatty on ports in and out labeled 2, I assume you can also set it to local control off.

 

You'll be able to perform, record, and play back on either FA or Phatty.

 

[Husker]

Let me digest this tonight. I could still "daisy chain" them together as an option, but this option is gives more flexibility, correct?

 

Thank you, Elmer, for your help. I appreciate your time.

[ElmerJFudd]

The problem with daisy chaining is the FA hasn't a dedicated MIDI thru port. You'd have more flexibility if you used USB MIDI.

[Husker]

Last two question for tonight. If the FA is the controller for everything, why would I need a midi into the FA?

[Dockeys]

Kudos to Markyboard and ElmerJFudd for the extensive and enlightening replies. Even though the thread doesn't relate to me it's interesting to see how other explain it. Nice one guys.

[Markyboard]

As EJF indicated you gain maximum flexibility by either a) using USB from each synth direct to your mac/pc, b) running all your synths/modules through a multi-port midi interface with usb or c) a combination of both. Once you do this your mac/pc is capable of "seeing" every device in your system and you can configure anything to anything from the DAW itself. You don't have to have unique channels on each device since they have their own dedicated ports, but I still like to give them unique channel numbers. BTW I have two 8x8 MOTU USB midi interfaces and do exactly this to manage a large number of older synths that don't have usb connectors

 

Last two question for tonight. If the FA is the controller for everything, why would I need a midi into the FA?

Assuming you want to play back the internal sounds of the FA-08 via midi this connection will allow playback of that recorded midi data.

[Markyboard]

Kudos to Markyboard and ElmerJFudd for the extensive and enlightening replies. Even though the thread doesn't relate to me it's interesting to see how other explain it. Nice one guys.

 

Hey thanks- we'll do almost anything for free beer

[Markyboard]

One more point for clarification Husker: It's best to avoid having to plug and unplug midi cables depending on what you want to do. That's where the multi-port midi interface comes in handy. If you can swing it money-wise I would buy something that provides some spare ports for future expansion (the 5 port micro lite is a good suggestion).

 

One concern: If you're having USB ground loop/noise issues with your Roland it's possible you may introduce similar problems with another usb device (like a usb multi-port interface). I had similar problems and bought one of these. Only I never even opened the package since I reconfigured for other reasons and the noise went away. My recommendation is to try the multi-port interface first - just make sure you can return it if need be.

 

[RABid]

Multiple keyboard connections were much simpler when we used devices like the MOTU MTP AV. Still my favorite MIDI interface. All we had to worry about with it is exceeding the Windows limit of MIDI devices.

[Markyboard]

Multiple keyboard connections were much simpler when we used devices like the MOTU MTP AV. Still my favorite MIDI interface. All we had to worry about with it is exceeding the Windows limit of MIDI devices.

 

Those are my 2 midi interfaces I mentioned. Extremely flexible and reliable but getting around on them sucks. For about 8 years I fumbled around on the front panel whenever I needed to change something (infrequent). Just about a month ago I finally went through the manual page by page and made several cheat sheets of every setting and I now know where everything is. Until I forget again.

[Husker]

I can swing one of these Motu Mini if that is the best option. I totally get that it is not great to keep plugging in and unplugging cables.

 

Two further questions about a midi interface:

 

1) I See no "switch" on it (like I see on a KVM switch). Say I miraculously become rich and now have a Slim Phatty and a Integra 7. How does the interface know which one I want to control with the FA08? Do I only have one on at a time?

 

2) Local control - I have "found this" and have to turn it on and off depending on whether I am recording audio or midi into the DAW. I assume I would still need to do this?

 

I'm sure I could probably resolve the USB ground loop, but another "benefit" to me to NOT using a USB connection is that I open the DAW frequently without the keyboard on. This way, the DAW doesn't "complain" when it doesn't see the keyboard on. Little thing I know, but it was irritating to me nonetheless. That was another reason I didn't spend too much time trying to get the USB ground noise resolved.

 

I don't want to come across as some weirdo by overthanking people, but folks here really have taken the time to help a total beginner. I bought my keyboard last summer, and I had NO idea what I was doing. Since then, I have learned a ton. Some things have just taking me some time for me to wrap my head around. Montgomery Alabama is not really a hot base of musical knowledge - the guys at the Guitar Center here a six shades of worthless.

 

There is a handful of guys here I own some beer to. And I buy "good" beer too.

 

Thanks guys.

[Rod S]

I still rely on a KAWAI MAV8 patchbay. Extremely simple device, they can still be found used. Yamaha also had something similar, I think. It has a front panel similar to an EQ that you match your INs and OUTs.

 

I already purchased a MOTU Micro to replace it (want to be able to just select a presets for different configurations), but the Kawai has met my needs for several years.