Overpriced instruments

[SEHpicker]

That thread about the million dollar guitar made me wonder why other instruments do not have the same aging value as the guitar.

Old = worth more. Old and owned by someone famous = even more $$$.

The only other instrument I can think of that carries that monetary aging effect is the violin - like the Stratovarius. Most other instruments lose value as they age.

Is this just a cultural thing? Are there other instruments that get better as they age? Is it just about the wood? Are they really better?

I'm curious to hear what you all think about this phenomena.

 

[Larryz]

I remember back to my 1st experience playing an old Martin acoustic at the age of 13 and an old acoustic Gibson at the age of 16. I know at that tender young age in the early '60s I could hear and feel the difference in a quality guitar. Especially having learned on an old Sears Stella LOL!

 

I shutter at the prices each time one the older Gibson and Martin guitars come up on the antique roadshow. Anywhere from $10 to $30 grand. I feel lucky that I got to hold and play one back in the day. You can probably get a good quality one for about $4 grand these days. I'm happy with my Taylor that ran about $1,500 and my Takamine that ran about a grand. I don't know if it's about the wood, but I can tell when I have a guitar with good sound and easy to play action in my hands. I like cedar tops and walnut back and sides, but will take on just about anything if it passes my tests on sound, quality, ease of playing, etc...I'm not that [pickey] LOL!

 

All I can say is I'm glad I'm not a violin player LOL! 3 or 4 grand for those players is nothing...I think a Strat would run 10 times those prices...In the right hands, they are probably worth it to the masters that can make them sing...

[desertbluesman]

You had a Stella Larryz? That's how I started also it was cheap and impossible to play. I went from that to Guild Dreadnoughts, and I also played some old Martins and of course those old aged tone woods were unmatched for beauty in tone. The Guilds that I owned were close in tone to the newer Martins back then, and a lot cheaper too.

 

There is a lot you can do with eq and effects or custom pickups to get any Strat style guitar to sound as close to the old ones as can be gotten. And you can do that much cheaper than buying a vintage Strat for 50 grand......I have a friend back east who was the "best" local player back in the 60/70's. He still picks a guitar these days, and he just built himself a 57 Fender Strat replica with finished Warmouth Woods and some custom pups & he has 2 grand in it, paying a local luthier to assemble it. It looks like an authentic 57 Tobacco Sunburst and he says it sounds the same also. He has always been a straight talker so I believe him.

[Larryz]

Yep DBM, my dad had a Stella that I tried to learn on. Then on a trip to my uncle's house in Arizona, my uncle gave me his old Stella. That was my 1st guitar LOL!

 

+1 on Warmouth. They make great products. I've never tried playing on one of their bodies, but one of my buddies had a Tele with one of their necks. Great playing guitar. If I was going to DIY a guitar, Warmouth would be my 1st call! I believe your buddy is telling it like it is!

[Scott Fraser]

All I can say is I'm glad I'm not a violin player LOL! 3 or 4 grand for those players is nothing...I think a Strat would run 10 times those prices...In the right hands, they are probably worth it to the masters that can make them sing...

 

That's entry level pricing in that world. A very desirable 19th century French bow easily runs $50,000 to $100,000. A Stradivarius or Amati owned by someone famous, $1,000,000.

[Scott Fraser]

I also started on a Stella. Really junk. Made me appreciate my $40 Teisco electric all that much more.

 

[Sharkman]

 

That's entry level pricing in that world. A very desirable 19th century French bow easily runs $50,000 to $100,000. A Stradivarius or Amati owned by someone famous, $1,000,000.

 

And if I played that $1,000,000 violin with that $100,000 bow, I'd still sound awful.

[Larryz]

All I can say is I'm glad I'm not a violin player LOL! 3 or 4 grand for those players is nothing...I think a Strat would run 10 times those prices...In the right hands, they are probably worth it to the masters that can make them sing...

 

That's entry level pricing in that world. A very desirable 19th century French bow easily runs $50,000 to $100,000. A Stradivarius or Amati owned by someone famous, $1,000,000.

 

Something I forgot to even mention...the price of the bow can exceed the price of the violin! That's like paying twice the price for a guitar pick than a Les Paul LOL!

[Larryz]

I also started on a Stella. Really junk. Made me appreciate my $40 Teisco electric all that much more.

 

+1,000!

[skipclone 1]

All I can say is I'm glad I'm not a violin player LOL! 3 or 4 grand for those players is nothing...I think a Strat would run 10 times those prices...In the right hands, they are probably worth it to the masters that can make them sing...

 

That's entry level pricing in that world. A very desirable 19th century French bow easily runs $50,000 to $100,000. A Stradivarius or Amati owned by someone famous, $1,000,000.

 

I have heard this too-one teacher who I have known for years is also a violin teacher, both her daughters play. I wish I had a video of the moment I heard that she was quoted a price of $10,000-for a bow.

It also makes me wonder how, in a country with no central temperature control, someone can be confident about storing expensive instruments in their home.

[Fred_C]

All I can say is I'm glad I'm not a violin player LOL! 3 or 4 grand for those players is nothing...I think a Strat would run 10 times those prices...In the right hands, they are probably worth it to the masters that can make them sing...

 

That's entry level pricing in that world. A very desirable 19th century French bow easily runs $50,000 to $100,000. A Stradivarius or Amati owned by someone famous, $1,000,000.

 

I have heard this too-one teacher who I have known for years is also a violin teacher, both her daughters play. I wish I had a video of the moment I heard that she was quoted a price of $10,000-for a bow.

It also makes me wonder how, in a country with no central temperature control, someone can be confident about storing expensive instruments in their home.

 

$10K for a bow? Must have been a nice bow!

[Danzilla]

$10K for a bow is nothing. Imagine how much they'd charge if it had been used by Jimmy Page.

[Scott Fraser]

$10k for a bow is not unusual at all. $50k to $100k is normal for a famous historical maker's product. I'm around people in that world (the Kronos Quartet) and they're always bringing in vintage bows to try out, asking my opinion on how they sound, then astounding me with the asking price. A typical exchange is: "What do think of this bow?" Me: "I think it's a bit more articulate & dynamic than your old bow on the D & A strings, but the C string isn't quite as warm & round." KQ: "It bounces better because it's a half gram lighter, but I can't quite dig in as much, & it's harder to get the A string to focus. It's a Picat, it's only $45k, because the tip has been repaired & it's not the original frog." Me: "For $45k it better make your coffee & give you a shave. At that price everything should be better than your current favorite bow or else don't buy it." KQ: "Did I mention it's a Picat?"

For context, it's like saying "Leo Fender hand carved this Broadcaster neck in 1952 & signed it."

[SEHpicker]

That's amazing Scott -

So it seems that the violin and bow were the original "overpriced" instruments based on age, condition, builder and previous owner.

I am sure that the folks using these feel that they are worth every penny. And I assume they would know.

But 45k for a bow - WOW!

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'm a recovering cellist myself, and my gear- entry-level pro stuff- was a couple thousand back in the mid-1970s.

[Danzilla]

I like my bow, and it only cost me $90.

 

 

Ok, so it's an E-Bow. But I'm marking up the resale on it in a few decades, to match this market.

[Scott Fraser]

I like my bow, and it only cost me $90.

Ok, so it's an E-Bow. But I'm marking up the resale on it in a few decades, to match this market.

 

You'll need to wait about 150 years, & provide some provenance, but sure, it might be worth a bazillion bucks.

[Eric Iverson]

Not too many people would deny that having a quality instrument (and other equipment) makes a difference, sometimes a BIG difference, though a mediocre player on a great instrument will still be a mediocre player.

The question is: does the difference it would make justify the cost? The old cost/benefit question. Sometimes it DOES, of course, but a lot of times, you have to wonder. And maybe there should be blindfold tests where they hand a violinist a Stradivarius without telling him/her that it was a rare, million dollar instrument, to hear their opinion.

And DEFINITELY don't mention if Heifetz or some other famous player owned it, LOL.

And maybe even do the same thing with poor dumb guitar players.....

[SEHpicker]

Not too many people would deny that having a quality instrument (and other equipment) makes a difference, sometimes a BIG difference, though a mediocre player on a great instrument will still be a mediocre player.

The question is: does the difference it would make justify the cost? The old cost/benefit question. Sometimes it DOES, of course, but a lot of times, you have to wonder. And maybe there should be blindfold tests where they hand a violinist a Stradivarius without telling him/her that it was a rare, million dollar instrument, to hear their opinion.

And DEFINITELY don't mention if Heifetz or some other famous player owned it, LOL.

And maybe even do the same thing with poor dumb guitar players.....

That's a great idea Eric - a blindfold test between a real 59 LP and an Epiphone LP that has been nicely set up. I bet that would be a serious reality check for the "older is better" crowd.

[Winston Psmith]

For me, part of the problem is physics, not economics. When I think about the average lifespan of most glue joints, the wear and tear on moving parts like pots & tuners, aging magnets in the pickups, sweat, smoke, heat, cold, and God-knows-what-else it's been subjected to, I can't see spending that much on an instrument you're not likely to play.

 

Re-work or repair any part of it, and it's no longer 'original', so there goes the perceived Vintage value: Leave it as is and you have a $1,000,000 wall-hanger. You can probably find a nice Picasso for that money . . .

[whitefang]

That thread about the million dollar guitar made me wonder why other instruments do not have the same aging value as the guitar.

Old = worth more. Old and owned by someone famous = even more $$$.

The only other instrument I can think of that carries that monetary aging effect is the violin - like the Stratovarius. Most other instruments lose value as they age.

Is this just a cultural thing? Are there other instruments that get better as they age? Is it just about the wood? Are they really better?

I'm curious to hear what you all think about this phenomena.

 

 

STRATovarius??

 

I had NO idea Fender even MADE violins! (I'm guessing you aimed at STRADIVARIUS )

 

Anyway....

 

It's hard to know why some sellers think some instrument is worth so much money. I'd guess that a guitar that can be proven to have once belonged to some iconic musician, like say, SCOTTY MOORE or even Elvis himself would carry more dollar value than one owned by a session musician who once or twice sat in a some Rod Stewart recordings, and not too many people have ever really heard of.

 

I hear it said all the time on those pawn shop and "American Pickers" shows I watch----"Just because something's old, DOESN'T mean it's worth a lot of money." Indeed. If that WAS the case, then my CAR should be worth the price of a new CADILLAC!

 

This also could be a case of; "You can ASK for any amount you WANT. It doesn't mean you'll GET it!" As in the fact that the guitar in question is STILL for sale at that price, and had yet to be snapped up!

 

I also think it's a case of some people out trolling for suckers.

Whitefang

 

 

[p90jr]

That's a great idea Eric - a blindfold test between a real 59 LP and an Epiphone LP that has been nicely set up. I bet that would be a serious reality check for the "older is better" crowd.

 

Here's a blindfold test I just saw yesterday about different woods and acoustic guitars.

 

http://www.leonardo-guitar-research.com/research-report-lgrp

 

 

[SEHpicker]

That's a great idea Eric - a blindfold test between a real 59 LP and an Epiphone LP that has been nicely set up. I bet that would be a serious reality check for the "older is better" crowd.

 

Here's a blindfold test I just saw yesterday about different woods and acoustic guitars.

 

http://www.leonardo-guitar-research.com/research-report-lgrp

 

That's a very interesting test p90jr - looks like actually seeing the instrument has a significant effect on preference. At least on the materials used in construction.

[Fred_C]

That's a great idea Eric - a blindfold test between a real 59 LP and an Epiphone LP that has been nicely set up. I bet that would be a serious reality check for the "older is better" crowd.

 

I have a question. The only LP I've ever played was a LP Studio. I was favorably impressed with its tone and playability.

 

My question is, how close does the tone and playability of an epiphpne LP come to a "real" Gibson LP?

 

 

[SEHpicker]

Ya know Fred - It comes down to the individual instrument.

There are crappy guitars that are expensive and there are great guitars that are cheap.

I would stack my Custom Shop Epiphone SG against any Gibson that I have played for tone and ease of play. I paid $300 for it.

[p90jr]

There are magical instruments in this world, no doubt.

 

There's also a great many pretty damned good instruments that just happen to turn out that way in these mass-produced times, regardless of who made them and the name on them, and a lot of them are not "trendy," under appreciated and therefore underpriced. For practicality's sake, these are the ones I seek out.

 

That doesn't mean I don't hear or feel or appreciate the difference in the truly magical instruments.

[Winston Psmith]

[video:youtube]

[Winston Psmith]

I would have to agree that it can depend on the guitar in question, as much as the name on the headstock. Country of origin is also a factor. In general, the Korean-made Epis tend to get higher marks than the Chinese-made models.Oddly enough, the Korean-made Epis came from various factories (Samick, Peerless, Cort), while the Chinese new come from an Epiphone-owned plant?

 

FWIW, I had an Epi SG (G400) and two U.S.-made Gibsons, and I finally traded away the Epi. While the Epi felt very nice, and was very playable, it never quite had the feel of my Gibsons. It wasn't a bad guitar, by any means, but it just didn't quite make the grade? If I didn't have the Gibsons on hand to A/B it with, I can't swear I would have noticed any difference. I also have an Epiphone LP, but it's an odd 7-string model, and can't really be compared with a conventional 6-string LP; very different pickups, for one thing, and massively heavy.

[Larryz]

I had a custom shop Clapton strat that I sold to my brother for what I paid for it. I loved the guitar for sound/tone/feel/etc. at first. After playing it for awhile I learned that I do not care for the V neck. It just didn't fit my hand and became uncomfortable to me after an hour or so. A blind test against a cheaper strat would not have found this out right away. I may buy that Clapton back some day and give it another try LOL!

 

I think it's more in the player than in the guitar. A great player will make just about anything sound great IMHO. Don't forget the amps make a difference as well...

[skipclone 1]

I hope everyone appreciates that I`m not coming off as Mr. all that but, back in the day I disagreed with my own bandmates about the value of instruments by label. I still argue about it with my brother and he is theory wise, better than I am. But all things equal, why is anyone buying an instrument? there`s more reasons than just playing-for better or worse. Investors who wouldn`t know a C major from a Lieutenant Major buy instruments all the time-that`s the world we live in. I`ve been lucky to try some pretty expensive instruments-and not because they`re old (if it doesn`t bore you to death, ask)-as others have mentioned, there are other factors. But I do wonder sometimes about the `previously owned by` issue-like, how can you be sure? I played a Strat to accompany a drum circle-it had been rebuilt but, the body had reputedly been owned by Jimi himself. My only means of verification-I played it in his former residence in New York (to this day one of the nicest guitars I ever picked up). But how do you know? assuming you care, without a document of authenticity, you don`t.