Need some help naming these jazz chords

[TaurusT]

Hey guys,

 

Would you mind helping me out. I have to give proper name notation to a series of songs and I'm not quite sure a few chords what they're called.

 

A few of them I guessed but I'm not sure if they're correct, since I'm not really a jazz musician. I devided them into righthand and lefthand notes that are played together at the same time.

 

LH: F-C RH: A-D-E-G --- Fmaj13???

LH: C-G RH: C#-E-G --- C-9 (flat ninth)?

LH: C-G-A RH: D-F-A-D --- Dm with a C bass? or C6/9 sus4 ? (this chord won't resolve the 4rd, so Im hesitant if this is at all correct.

 

A few more I'm not sure about or don't know:

 

LH: F-C RH: A-D-E-G --- ??????

LH: D-A-D RH: F#-A-D# --- D-9 (flat ninth) ?

LH: C-G RH: C#-E-G --- ??????

*LH: Ab-E RH: G-G#-B-E --- ??????

*LH: Ab-E RH: G-G#-B-D --- ??????

LH: C-G-C RH: F-A-C --- F add9/C?

LH: Eb-Eb RH: G-C#-F --- Eb9?

 

LH: C#-G#-Bb RH: Eb-F#-Bb-Eb --- Ebm/C#? - C6/9sus4 ?

LH: C#-G#-C# RH: F#-Bb-C# --- ??????

 

If you can guide me in the right direction with proper names, I'd be very grateful. Thanks.

 

[BbAltered]

First off: the proper name for chords depends on the root (or bass) of the chord. Let us assume what you have written above is from left to right the lowest to the highest notes, and the bass player has not been given instructions to play some other note, then we can assign names.

 

Chords names can be somewhat arbitrary. What is most important is quickly communicating to others who are playing the song in a manner that makes it easy for the other guy to understand what you want. Another important aspect is that a chord name often implies a specific scale or a choice of scales. So sometimes a chord is named to tell the player what scale to use. Trying to name groups of notes without knowing the song key and the harmony movement in a specific passage is somewhat arbitrary.

 

With that said:

 

F-C-A-D-E-G Fmaaj13, sometimes called F6/9

 

C-G-C#-E-G C with a flat-9

 

C-G-A-D-F-A-D C13

 

F-C-A-D-E-G F6/9

 

D-A-D-F#-A-D# D with a flat-9

 

C-G-C#-E-G C with a flat-9

 

Ab-E-G-G#-B-E E sharp 9 with the third in the bass

 

Ab-E-G-G#-B-D E sharp 9 with the third in the bass

 

C-G-C-F-A-C C sus 4

 

Eb-Eb-G-C#-F Eb dominant 9

 

C#-G#-Bb-Eb-F#-Bb-Eb Ebm/Db (a lot of musicians who read will complain about the note spelling here - look and see what key your song is in and try to use those note names exclusively.)

 

C#-G#-C#-F#-Bb-C# C# sus 4

 

 

[TaurusT]

Thanks so much for the quick response. Yes, it's all relative to the root so I'm going to keep that in mind when spelling the notes as well and what diatonic function the chords have (or are suggested).

 

This i don't understand though, how do I notate this with a short symbol/notation?

 

Ab-E-G-G#-B-E E sharp 9 with the third in the bass

Ab-E-G-G#-B-D E sharp 9 with the third in the bass

 

Would that be something like "E9#/Ab)"?

 

I also wonder about:

 

"C-G-C-F-A-C C sus 4"

 

There's an A in there. But that doesn't change the "sus4" label? We don't add any "add6" or something to the name, like "Csus4/add6"? How do we differentiate between a C-sus4 WITH an A and one WITHOUT? (C-F-G-C vs C-G-C-F-A-C)

 

Last but not lease, got one more I wonder about:

 

LH: C-G-A RH: D-F-A-D is that a C13?

[BbAltered]

Ab-E-G-G#-B-E vs. Ab-E-G-B-D. Both of these note groups are examples of a E-dominant-sharp-9 chord. If you want the keyboard player to play these notes exactly, you need to spell it out on a staff.

 

If you want to make sure the keyboard player plays G# in the bass (do call it a G# when referring to an E-dom chord: do not call it an Ab) you should notate the chord as E-dom-#9/G# bass.

 

If you don't care how the keyboard player voices the chord, simply notate it as E-dom-#9.

 

Yes: C-G-A-D-F-A-D can be named as C13.

 

On review, I made an error in calling C-G-C-F-A-C Csus4. In classical jazz theory Csus4 is C-Bb-D-F, and implies an F mixolydian scale. For C-G-C-F-A-C, I think C13 or F/C are better names.

[I-missRichardTee]

BbAlteed You put in a lot of time to respond to chords that are not as typically seen.. so forgive my nitpicking, ok!

In my world Csus4 is an alteration of a C triad Instead of C E G the E is moved up a half set to F spelling would be C F G. There is no D nor F in it!

 

Another observation to back up your reminder about the bass part

Best to voice lead these chords, to put them in a chord progression.

[Jazzmammal]

Taurus, what songs are these? Is this for a piano solo part or is this part of a band? I would submit if this is for a band with a bass and guitar, those are too complex. They need to be simplified. These notes remind me of some big band charts I've seen where they write a chord to show every note the horns are playing so you get stuff like this when a much simpler chord for the piano works just fine.

 

As a jazzer I would not call a chord a 13th without the 7th. That F should have the Eb in it if it's an F13th. Same for the C chord. Without the 7th it's just a basic 6 or 6/9 chord.

 

Your first group of chords have 5ths in the LH with a different chord in the right. Example, the chord with C-G in the left and C# E G in the right. In jazz, this could be a poly chord written as a C A7. The vertical line is literally just that, your write this between the two chords. This denotes an A7 over a C triad and is much easier to understand than trying to call it a C flat 9 without the 7th. And there we are again, a 9th chord implies the 7th but you don't want a Bb in there which usually means it's a 6/9 but there's no A either so maybe my A7 would also sound wrong? This is something we just have to hear and know what this is.

 

This also shows how tricky this stuff can be. Not all use poly chord notation and others will not be able to figure out these chords by complex spellings either. Like Bb said, if you need exact voicings you have to write it out the old fashioned way or tell everybody to listen to the record.

 

Bob

[Dave Ferris]

.

LH: C-G RH: C#-E-G --- C-9 (flat ninth)?

 

LH: D-A-D RH: F#-A-D# --- D-9 (flat ninth) ?

 

Taurus, just a quick observation on a couple of your voicings.

 

First off, they can't be thought of as Minor with a Major third in them - E in the first C chord, and F# in the second. You'd have to change the notes to Eb & F natural respectively if they can be thought of at all as Minor.

 

And then as you currently have them voiced, they are not frequently used with that voicing. Of course context of the song/progression could change things. You might see that voicing with an ascending or descending Chromatic movement in the bass, or a quick, what's known as a, passing chord in the tune.

 

But generally speaking, within jazz harmony, it's considered a more functional and preferred sound, when you don't double voices within a chord. Of course , voicing for block type chords are an exception. Or if you have a particular voicing you want to use for more of an harmonic effect.

 

Setting aside the Minor name that you gave the two chords, you'd get a nicer sound adding the Dominant 7th to each chord. Thus taking away the Minor designation and making each chord a true Dominant 7 b9 - C7b9 & D7b9.

 

Your voicing for the C chord could read as follows:

 

LH- C Bb RH- C# E G or a different inversion : LH- C G RH- C# E Bb

 

If you really do want a Minor b9 sound, I would just add the Eb (flat the third) with the same voicing. You are in a more "modal" type territory or sound now - Eb Mixolydian or Ab Major scale.

 

Again, there is no rule (on piano) that you can't stay with your doubling of the 5th & root in both of the chords, and the song might dictate *that* particular sound. But again generally speaking, in Jazz vocabulary at least, you will see a voicing that "implies more" harmonically speaking.

 

LH: Eb-Eb RH: G-C#-F --- Eb9?

 

This type of voicing is seen more in rock/blues or Gospel contexts, so it's actually good to double the root , especially two octaves below the RH, to give it more umph/balls in low end, as they say.

 

There could be ?s or issues with each of your examples, but I just chose a couple to address.

 

Hope this helps.

[Doug White]

LH: C-G RH: C#-E-G

LH: D-A-D RH: F#-A-D#

LH: C-G RH: C#-E-G

 

LH: Ab-E RH: G-G#-B-E

LH: Ab-E RH: G-G#-B-D

LH: Eb-Eb RH: G-C#-F

 

LH: C#-G#-Bb RH: Eb-F#-Bb-Eb

LH: C#-G#-C# RH: F#-Bb-C#

 

As others mentioned, I think some of your struggle may be in the way you are looking at the enharmonic spelling of specific notes in the chord.

 

From the list above, chord names will start to make more sense with these note spellings:

 

LH: C-G RH: Db-E-G - that's the b9

LH: D-A-D RH: F#-A-Eb - that's the b9

LH: C-G RH: Db-E-G - that's the b9

 

You'll sometimes see the #9 in parenthesis for these 2, with slash notation for the bass note. The parenthesis add clarity, so someone doesn't look at E#9, and think it is an E#(i.e. F) 9th chord, when it is actually an E chord with a #9.

 

E(#9)/G# & E7#9/G#

 

LH: G#-E RH: G-G#-B-E - major 3rd in the bass, G=#9

LH: G#-E RH: G-G#-B-D - same as above, with the 7 (D)

 

 

LH: Eb-Eb RH: G-Db-F - just a Eb9 (Db=7, F=9)

 

These two can either be named as C# or Db, assuming the root as the lowest bass note. Key Signature would dictate the proper note naming:

 

LH: C#-G#-A# RH: D#-F#-A#-D#

or

LH: Db-Ab-Bb RH: Eb-Gb-Bb-Eb

 

LH: C#-G#-C# RH: F#-A#-C#

or

LH: Db-Ab-Db RH: Gb-Bb-Db

 

[Dave Ferris]

.

LH: C-G RH: C#-E-G --- C-9 (flat ninth)?

 

LH: D-A-D RH: F#-A-D# --- D-9 (flat ninth) ?

 

Taurus, just a quick observation on a couple of your voicings.

 

First off, they can't be thought of as Minor with a Major third in them - E in the first C chord, and F# in the second. You'd have to change the notes to Eb & F natural respectively if they can be thought of at all as Minor.

 

Looking at your post again, I realize I assumed your C-9 & D-9 meant Minor chords, when you were really using the -9 to refer to a b9. In that case, disregard my Major/Minor comments.

 

But my observations on the doubling of notes in your voicings within standard Jazz vocabulary, in addition to possibly adding a Dominant 7th note, still are good.

 

In fact if it were me and depending on context/tune, I'd more often double the root in that first C chord voicing for a harmonic effect.

 

RH- C an octave below middle C & middle C

LH- C# E G

[I-missRichardTee]

Dave

I have not heard the term, "harmonic effect" before? Can you describe what that term means, please?

[Dave Ferris]

T, when I use that term, it refers to something outside of the usual harmonic realm that we are used to hearing. Almost like a Monk type dissonance. Or a color that can take things "out" for a minute. I use a few devices like that in this kinda free, open solo vamp on one of my tunes (starting around 2:33). I'm certain you could pull a few hundred examples off you tube that have dissonance or *surprise chords* in them thoughthis just came to me real quick as a possible example.

 

 

In fact, people that play often in this style would probably find my reference as no big deal and the norm.

[I-missRichardTee]

Talk about surprise.. wow Dave, The spirit of Monk is with you.. I have never heard you play this way... I would never have guessed twas you. I really like this.

You are also correct I scarcely noticed the harmonic effect, because I was kind of surprised the whole time. Is this a Herbie H tune or yours?

Very nice and thank you.

[Griffinator]

Ab-E-G-G#-B-E vs. Ab-E-G-B-D. Both of these note groups are examples of a E-dominant-sharp-9 chord. If you want the keyboard player to play these notes exactly, you need to spell it out on a staff.

 

If you want to make sure the keyboard player plays G# in the bass (do call it a G# when referring to an E-dom chord: do not call it an Ab) you should notate the chord as E-dom-#9/G# bass.

 

Erm...

 

I don't mean to be nitpicky here, but wouldn't the simpler path be Em/Ab or Em7/Ab (Ab-E-G-B-E or Ab-E-G-B-D)?

[BbAltered]

From Griffinator: "I don't mean to be nitpicky here, but wouldn't the simpler path be Em/Ab or Em7/Ab (Ab-E-G-B-E or Ab-E-G-B-D)?"

 

Well, an Em and an Edom chord are two very different chords, with very different sound, they play different roles in chord movement (think II - V - I's and which ones are typically dominant and which is minor), and keyboard player usually approach these two chords with different scales.

 

So, to my ear, Edom#9/G# bass and Em/Ab bass are NOT equivalent.

 

It is possible that Ab-E-G-G#-B-E should be played as Em/Ab bass. We would need to see the chord in its musical context (what is the chord preceding and the chord following) to know for sure.

[I-missRichardTee]

From Griffinator: "I don't mean to be nitpicky here, but wouldn't the simpler path be Em/Ab or Em7/Ab (Ab-E-G-B-E or Ab-E-G-B-D)?"

 

Well, an Em and an Edom chord are two very different chords, with very different sound, they play different roles in chord movement (think II - V - I's and which ones are typically dominant and which is minor), and keyboard player usually approach these two chords with different scales.

 

So, to my ear, Edom#9/G# bass and Em/Ab bass are NOT equivalent.

 

It is possible that Ab-E-G-G#-B-E should be played as Em/Ab bass. We would need to see the chord in its musical context (what is the chord preceding and the chord following) to know for sure.

 

Theory guy alert, don't be alarmed just stay calm and it will soon pass.

 

I keep hearing this phrase "blah blah triad, with so and so in the bass", as if the "Blah blah triad" is the real ( identity of the chord ) chord and the bass is along for the ride. This is very misleading language.

I am sorry, but with exception of inversions, the BASS NOTE IS the chords identity.

If you see an F triad with C in the bass, since the C is already in the F triad, that C does not change the nature of the chord, it is still an F chord.

 

But if an F triad with a Gb or B or D or E etc, then in those cases the bass note is also the identity of that structure, Not the F chord.

 

The original post was never clear to me, because the LH's voicing's range, was not mentioned. eg if the Ab in left hand is just a third below Middle C, then that Ab ( G# ) could easily be perceived as an inner voice, and a much lower bass note would be the true name of the chord.

[Griffinator]

But if an F triad with a Gb or B or D or E etc, then in those cases the bass note is also the identity of that structure, Not the F chord.

 

I don't know that I agree with this. There are plenty of reasons to play a non-chord tone in the bass - passing tone for tension's sake is usually the top culprit. Doesn't change the chord, just changes the bass note.

[Griffinator]

We would need to see the chord in its musical context (what is the chord preceding and the chord following) to know for sure.

 

Absolutely in agreement here. Out of context, we're just basically all guessing at it. If we could get a look at the progression, it'd probably clear up pretty quickly.

[Tusker]

I don't mean to be nitpicky here, but wouldn't the simpler path be Em/Ab or Em7/Ab (Ab-E-G-B-E or Ab-E-G-B-D)?

 

Griff, it is true, it is simpler if one was to play the same voicing each time. With slash chords, substitutions are not as clear as with functional chords. So like many jazz players, if you enjoy the creativity of substituting new voicings on the fly ... the arranger who uses slash chords has given you fewer cues to work with and made your job harder.

[Doug White]

It is also a matter of style & the preference of the person notating. If the person notating was adverse to using slash notation, or as JerryA stated, wanted to give the player substitution options. For Em/Ab slash notation, assuming a root of Ab on the bass, the 3rd becomes an unknown -- it could be a major or minor 3rd.

 

As a major 3rd, the slash could be notated as Abmaj7#5#9.

As a minor 3rd is could be Abm#5 (as a harmonic minor)

 

These different cord notations would lead to some different substitution potentials.