In ear monitoring and keyboards

[Heartbeat]

I have an interest in exploring IEM's for live use, but I'm basically clueless on how I would hear my keyboard mix in stereo, a mix of vocals with other members of the band, and some of the other instruments in the band (drums, guitar, bass, etc.) oh and the ability to control my own mix. I'm a lead singer as well.

For those that are using IEMs, could you tell me how you approach your aural needs.

 

TIA,

[stoken6]

First thing about IEMs: you won't hear acoustic instruments properly unless they're mic'ed. Ditto guitar cabs.

 

If you really want your own mix, you'll need your own monitor send off the FOH desk. (As a lead singer you'll probably warrant one of those anyway). It will need to be a stereo send (or pair of monos fed alternatively from the L/R keyboard channels).

 

Then the simplest way (for a keys player) is simply to plug the monitor send into a headphone amp (preferably with a limiter) and into your choice of IEMs. Alternatively, use a wireless system if you don't want to be tethered.

 

If you need control of your mix from the stage, then you have two options:

1. Some modern digital desks have the ability for wireless control from an iPad

2. Run a splitter on stage, take one side of the splitter to the FOH desk as usual. The other side feeds your own personal desk, and you control your own mix from there.

 

Forum member J. Dan played in a band where everyone was on IEMs. They had their own band splitter, and their own monitor desk, and each member had a send to themselves. I'll let Dan reply further if he wishes.

 

My setup is simpler. I play keys and some BVs, and I have a Rolls PM351 (as do a number of folk here). That's a very simple three-channel mixer/headphone amp, but with a splitter for the keys channel and vocal mic. The third channel is a monitor feed from the FOH desk. So I have control over:

1. "Me" (vox)

2. "Me" (keys)

3. Everything else (I take a generic monitor send that also feeds our lead vox wedges)

 

Be aware that on IEMs the sound is much more detailed and clear: like switching from an old 405-line black and white TV to full-HD. So suddenly you'll be much more critical of your monitor mix ("I need less 2kHz on the snare" / "I need a brighter reverb on the female BVs" / "I need a slower attack on the sax compressor" etc.), whereas before on wedges you'd be lucky to get beyond "I can't hear myself"!

 

One final thought: the impression on IEMs is that you are more detached/isolated (like playing in a bubble), and that takes getting used to. Give it time, it won't click immediately. Once you do, you'll experience the epiphany of many of us: "hey, it's the end of the gig and my ears aren't hurting".

 

Hope that helps.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[JeffLearman]

I'm about to try this as well.

 

Basically, there are two very different routes. One is "everyone" and the other is "just me". The first requires a fairly sophisticated mixer (with separate monitor feeds per musician, and best, with phone-app control of each person's mix), and I won't be going there.

 

The "just me" option is quite a bit simpler, and that's what I'm doing. I'll be starting with the very simplest and inexpensive case: cheap sound-isolating earbuds ($20) and a Rolls PM50S headphone monitor preamp ($50, IIRC). I'll feed my keyboards in stereo from my bottom keyboard's 1/4" outputs to the Rolls using a "recording insert cable" (two 1/4" TS to a single stereo TRS 1/4") from Hosa.

 

The PM50S also has a mic input, which I'll be using for ambient, or for my mic monitor if I end up singing. It has an XLR in and out, so it's just a by-station for your mic cable. (I don't remember whether it passes phantom power through but I'd bet that it does.) It has two knobs, one for mic level, and the other for total level.

 

At first I'll be monitoring the rest of the band by bleed-in through the IEMs. I'm hoping that's sufficient, but I might put a mic nearer the quieter guitarist where it also will pick up vocal monitors, and as far from the other guitarist as possible (wink wink).

 

The next step up in personal monitor is the Rolls PM351. In addition to what the PM50S has, it also has a built-in stereo DI with two XLR outputs for feeding FOH, and an additional line input (stereo or mono) with its own level control. You could use that two ways: from a line level monitor signal from FOH, or by using an additional "speaker-to-line-level" adaptor widget (Rolls sells one, dunno what it's called) to pull monitor off of a passive monitor speaker cable.

 

If I were to use the 351 I'd be sure to have one of the speaker-to-line adaptors (which passes the speaker signal through) and a speaker cable, so that I could handle either powered or passive speakers at a venue.

 

The cheap IEMs I'll be trying are the MGC M6 (the M6P is the same but has a volume control on the cable, which I don't need) for $20. So far I like 'em for listening to music while vacuuming or using a leaf blower/sucker. Bass is very strong -- I'd say "hyped", far from flat. But usually when we say "hyped bass" it implies using too small a woofer with T-line or whatever, which leads to resonance and loose flabby or boomy bass, and this is nothing like that.

 

For my purposes, the most comfortable ones that don't suck will be fine. I like good sound but even simple earbuds can sound as good as really fine live speakers -- at least, better than the ability of my aged ears to detect.

 

To get your "own mix" of everything else, you'll need help from FOH, and how much help you'll get will depend on the gear at the venue (whether they have multiple monitor feeds) and the person running it. Hopefully we'll get a good post here from J-Dan who's done this extensively and done it right, on the upscale end.

 

My guess is in the vast majority of cases, folks using IEMs get mono feeds, with the exception of whatever they feed locally using something like the Rolls PMs. That'd take a bit of getting used to for me; I hate the sound of everything coming from the middle of my head. But perhaps one gets used to it.

 

Anyway, take my post as the bottom end and simplest. The next step up for me would be wireless, so I'm not tethered. I see I can get started on that for about $200-$400. If I find I like the experience, I'll be doing that since I hate to be tethered. Going wireless from the get-go saves some costs, no doubt.

 

I'll be watching this thread. Meanwhile, there have been a number of posts about IEMs on this forum. The forum's search feature stinks; instead just use google and add "site:forums.musicplayer.com" to the search terms. Lots of good stuff already for you to read, and then you'll be better able to follow some of the posts oriented towards your specific situation.

[JeffLearman]

Bah! Ninja'd by seconds!

 

One final thought: the impression on IEMs is that you are more detached/isolated (like playing in a bubble), and that takes getting used to. Give it time, it won't click immediately.

Good point! Seems obvious, but I hadn't considered that yet.

[eric]

I am a HUGE fan of in ear monitors. It is absolutely the single best gear investment I've ever made. I've been using them exclusively for four years and I do not miss the days of lugging my own powered speakers or the deafening stage volume related to that. I ended up getting a second set of custom molds (I use the Ultimate Ears UE7) as I did run across a time where sweat had kind of wreaked havoc on some connections over the years and I really needed a backup set. I'm so incredibly in love with my IEM rig that I can't even contain myself.

 

Here is a good thread that tracks my decision making process and what I'm still using to give myself a stereo mix of my keyboards separate from a stereo (or mono) mix of the band. I'm really lucky that my band has a cool digital mixer that has an iOS app for control and so I can dial in my mix to my liking for each instrument in the band. Super cool.

[Heartbeat]

Thanks for responses guys. I wasn't aware of the Rolls PM351 mixer, and it seems like a great entry level way to delve into in ear monitoring.

To be honest, I'm playing in a bluesy, rootsy, r&b band in a lot of small clubs. The PA the band uses is very un-elaborate, but I think I can squeeze a separate mix out of one of their aux sends for my purposes. Typically none of the instruments are miked, so maybe I could setup an ambient microphone up somewhere so I could hear what's going on with everyone else?

 

If I was to use a multi-keyboard setup, I guess I could take a stereo line off that to feed the Rolls.

 

Thanks again.

[JeffLearman]

That should work. You might find you don't need the ambient mic; that's what I'll be finding out in the next couple weeks. If yours is anything like most blues bands I've played in, you should have no problem hearing the guitars, bass, and drums, without an ambient mic.

 

When using your own PA, you should be set, assuming you can find a spare aux/monitor bus. You'll still need vox monitor wedges, for the rest of the band to hear you, but they won't need to be right at your feet. Let the rest of the band figure out where they want them. This could be a boon for them.

 

Most clubs I play in have their own PAs, so we're stuck with that. Even many small clubs will have two monitor sends, and as the lead vox you should probably get your way ... especially since you won't be using floor monitors for yourself.

 

Some clubs will have only one monitor send. (That used to be common but is rarer and rarer these days, which is nice.) That'll be the trickiest situation.

 

As mentioned briefly above, JDan's solution is to use a snake splitter, so every channel goes to their own mixer in addition to FOH, and they have total control over monitors. Sound guys at clubs should love that, since it just eliminates one job for them and allows them to concentrate on the sound out front.

 

I use a stereo send from keyboards regardless of whether it's one keyboard or more. Lately I'm using a Yamaha CP4 beneath a Nord Electro. I plug the Electro into the CP4's aux in, which gets mixed into the CP4's output, so I don't need a mixer. If you have multiple keyboards and want to run them all stereo and they don't have aux inputs, you'll need a small mixer. Actually, you'd need that even if they're all mono, because you wouldn't want one keyboard in one ear and the other in the other. (That'd be bad for your ears, too.)

[J. Dan]

You know, I have a lot of comments to offer, but honestly, this has been discussed ad nauseum and I've said what I have to say a billion times already. I suggest searching via google and enter "site:forums.musicplayer.com". If you have questions after reading all that, please don't hesitate to ask, not trying to be a dick or anything.

[Losendoskeys]

What we need is a mod to make this a sticky thread.......

[Phil UK]

A couple of daft questions on this topic:

 

(1) does the Rolls PM351 have a sound limiter? If not, is there something similar that does?

 

(2) the kind of set up/stage that I play on usually has 3 or 4 wedges and the monitor mix done from FOH. When I turn up at a gig for a rushed sound check etc - do I just ask the sound engineer to let me have a band mix feed into my Rolls? Does he take the cable out of the wedge or just take a line a line out of the stage box/splitter? I'm the only member of our band going the IEM route - would I be taking someone's monitor feed from them? (I tend to share a wedge with the bass player...)

 

 

[MorayM]

A couple of daft questions on this topic:

 

(1) does the Rolls PM351 have a sound limiter? If not, is there something similar that does?

 

(2) the kind of set up/stage that I play on usually has 3 or 4 wedges and the monitor mix done from FOH. When I turn up at a gig for a rushed sound check etc - do I just ask the sound engineer to let me have a band mix feed into my Rolls? Does he take the cable out of the wedge or just take a line a line out of the stage box/splitter? I'm the only member of our band going the IEM route - would I be taking someone's monitor feed from them? (I tend to share a wedge with the bass player...)

 

 

(1) No, sadly not. I think some wireless IEM beltpacks do though. Someone else will be able to tell you more.

 

(2) It depends on the sound system, and the engineer. Do all the wedges have the same mix? If the wedges are powered then you may (connectors permitting) be able to just unplug one and plug it into the Rolls. If they are passive, then you definitely DO NOT want to do that! If there's a spare monitor channel on the desk, then you may be able to take a feed off that, but depending on what cables the engineer has run to and from the stage, it may need a lot of extra wiring.

 

My advice would be to say that you'd like a feed from the desk into you ears in advance. The earlier you do it, the more likely you are to get it. Engineers generally know their system best, so will know how best to accommodate you.

 

TBH I've found I rarely need a band feed. My IEMs have enough bleed that I can still hear the rest of the band when I've got them in.

[Phil UK]

Thanks. How do you get on with volume control, given the two different sources of sound? I currently play with ACS Pro17s in http://acscustom.com/uk/product/acs-pro17/ and have to make adjustments accordingly (I usually end up overcompensating and playing too quietly) but at least it's all relative....

[MorayM]

I'm still working on that one. Most of the time I'm going synth/organ type stuff, and I pre-program all my levels and velocity responses and volume pedal responses to match what the band is doing. So even if I'm playing harder to compensate for low in-ear volume, it will still sound OK out front. I'm still at the mercy of FoH of course, but without a dedicated monitor engineer, it's about as good as it gets.

[hardware]

I am basically the bands engineer, but we have Android Mobile FOH guy who just controls levels.

I control all FX for vocals, lights and my own hardware synths and hardware FX.

Being the keyboard player I need a little of everyone, including myself.

 

Pretty easy set up actually. Keys > X32 Mixer, back to keys where I decide the levels.

I have to hear a little of everything, but sure I want my keys on top, but still have to control all hardware and DSP based FX.

 

The project window is below.

http://s29.postimg.org/6tzun96on/CUSTOM_MIX.jpg

images upload

[Phil UK]

Can anyone recommend an alternative to the Rolls PM351 that has a limiter function? I'm nervous about taking a monitor feed directly into my ears without some kind of safety built in for feedback/volume spikes etc...

[Pat Azzarello]

I use IEM's with a DI/splitter and mixer. This gives me enough flexibility to hear myself against a "band" mix that I don't have a lot of control over. It's worked well, as long as I get the engineer to put the right "good" stuff in, and leave the "bad" stuff out.

 

Keyboard L -> Splitter -> FOH

-> IEM Mixer

 

Keyboard R -> Splitter -> FOH

-> IEM Mixer

 

My Mic -> Splitter -> FOH

-> IEM Mixer

 

Monitor Send (from house)

 

The keyboards and my mic go into the splitter, then into the IEM mixer.

 

The monitor send is one that I often have to share with another band member. When I'm lucky, I get to pick the monitor mix. I haven't had to put that into my splitter (then on to the other monitor), but I suppose I could.

 

Note: My mic won't have any reverb on it, but it's usually in the common monitor mix, and I get some ambience through open mics on stage (from monitors and FOH.

 

It seems complicated, but since it all sits in a rack, it's actually not - I just have to carry a couple extra XLR cables and some gender reversing cables (usually so we can use snake inputs as outputs).

 

Note - I make my own patch cables , and I use a different color so there's never any question about mix - ups... it's saved me a lot of time and trouble over the years.

[Synthaholic]

Can anyone recommend an alternative to the Rolls PM351 that has a limiter function? I'm nervous about taking a monitor feed directly into my ears without some kind of safety built in for feedback/volume spikes etc...

 

Gino agrees with you.

 

 

Gino Vannelli has his hearing back, and hes ready to perform

[Stokely]

I went with a wireless beltpack (shure, the one that comes bundled with the 215 earbuds) even though I use it wired--simply because of the limiter. Though since I use an aux send of my submixer to feed my in-ears, I would have needed some kind of headphone amp regardless...My submixer does double duty, sends a keyboard mix to FOH but also brings back a keyboard-less monitor feed that I can send out to my ears. It sounds confusing but after setting up a few times it's a no-brainer. I sing some lead and lots of backup so I need good vox monitoring.

 

All that said--stereo wouldn't work with my setup. My pack (iirc) is only mono, though I think they make a stereo one. Also, the way I'm sending keys to FOH *and* a powered monitor (for the band) by using L + R outs would have to be reworked, not sure my little soundcraft would handle that. Not sure also if it has two pre-fader aux sends, which I would need. In any case, our band runs mono so it makes more sense for me to run mono, that way I hear exactly what goes to FOH. Everyone has probably experienced patches that suddenly disappear when summed to mono, or wide leslie panning that turns into tremolo etc.

[EscapeRocks]

I am also one of those who uses a Rolls PM351 to control my own mix on stage. It's been wonderful.

 

My setup is thus:

MOXF6 and FA08.

I run stereo (another conversation)

I run the FA08 audio into the MOX6 A/D input.

 

I then run the L+R outputs of the MOXF6 to my Radial Pro D2 DI, which then feeds the FOH.

 

I connect to the Radial THRU jacks to a 1/4" Y cable- 2 females TS to one male TRS.

 

This plugs into the Rolls PM351 Instrument Input

 

My Mic is connected to the Rolls Mic Input. Mic Thru to FOH.

 

I have a 1/4" TRS to XLR female plugged into the Line Input on the Rolls. That's my FOH monitor feed.

 

 

This has been a great setup! While I have had no volume spike issues, I do run the Rolls thru my Shure wireless body pack for safety. I use Shure 315 ears with Sensaphonics molded buds.

 

The Rolls is velcro'd to the top left side of my FA-08.

 

Our sound engineer runs an ambient mic at our shows so I do not feel isolated from the audience.

 

On those shows where I want to run wireless, I simply run a line from the Rolls to the PSM200 transmitter that I bring in the single space rack.

 

Again, the in ears are the best thing I've ever done. No more ear fatigue. I can listen at nice levels. No earplugs that block sound making things sound weird.

 

 

Here's a hot of the setup at home. Here I'm using it with my cans for practice

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh58/escaperocks1/rolls2_zpsj1u0zq24.jpg

 

 

Here's shot of the Rolls setup when I use my piano shell. You can see the Y cable (red and black)

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh58/escaperocks1/IMG_1716_zpse83d8e95.jpg

[erik_nie]

My setup is now almost similar.

Because I use 2 Kurzweil synths without a DA-input, I need to mix the stuff before entering the PM351.

 

I tried a cheap Behringer mixer. That was working but rather big to put on my synths together with the PM351. Also the power-supply was bulky.

 

Because I want to work without rack for quick setup and transporting stuff around, I build a passive mixer, well just make a cable with on one side a stereo jack going into the PM351 and two cables with a each two mono jacks. In the mono jacks I added a 10K resistor in series with the signal.

 

This works great: Small (no extra box, supply), no noise, great sound. The only thing is that the output is a few dB less, but that is easily compensated with the PM351.

 

I use the balanced output from the PM351 to FOH.

 

Thought about a Radial Pro D2. Does it bring that much extra?

 

My setup is now very small and sounds great!

 

Recently I added a tablet that plays backing tracks, use left for backing-tracks and right output for the click-track.

I added a mono input to the cable by added the mono backing-track signal with 2 resistors of 10K to left and right

I thought that this would ruin the stereo image, but that did not happen: Tested it with a tremolo rhodes, image stays as wide.

 

Hope that others will also try this out, I think it is working great for mixing a few synths, if they have their own volume slider you can use this for leveling.

 

 

[JeffLearman]

Can anyone recommend an alternative to the Rolls PM351 that has a limiter function? I'm nervous about taking a monitor feed directly into my ears without some kind of safety built in for feedback/volume spikes etc...

Rolls PM55P

 

Or, as mentioned above, wireless systems generally have built-in limiting (like it or not).

 

I have an extra pair of wireless headphones that I was thinking of cannibalizing to make a wireless set, but then I remembered that it has auto-leveling, which would drive me nuts.