Yamaha FC7 before and after Ashby Solutions

[Reezekeys]

On my Roland FA-08, my FC7 with Ashby adapter works perfectly. Smooth, continuous input from 0 to 127.

 

Withtout the adapter, it behaved just as Reezekeys explained.

Strange. Without my adapter the FC7 doesn't work at all with my A800 Pro.

 

Reeze: besides the adapter I still had to change the polarity setting in the system menu on my FA-08 for it to work. On mine it was a choice between normal and reverse.

 

If you have this parameter available see if that make a difference along with the adapter

That might explain things. I have no such parameter on my keyboard.

[Reezekeys]

Why not use a controller or software for custom curve modifications....?

That's not a bad idea and not hard for me to implement since I use a laptop rig with Plogue Bidule. I'll give it a shot on the next gig I get an FC7. I suspect it won't exactly cure things though. I'd be "narrowing" a wide range of midi values then "expanding" a much smaller range in order to make things feel linear this might make for some coarse volume jumps near the end of the pedal travel.

[Reezekeys]

Three in a row in one thread, that might be a new record. Well it's a lazy afternoon here in the NY area watching 4 to 6 inches of snow falling for the 1,000,000th time (it seems!). I post this important update because I may have found the answer to why some folks have good results with adapting the FC7 to Roland gear while my experience is not as good. It's in the comments section of this post. Maybe someone with more EE knowledge can chime in but it has to do with a "ratio check" that some connected gear does or might do. Or maybe I'm just not lucky!

[hardware]

Not at all Reeze, and Bidule can handle it.

Notice the MIDI monitor...?

It receives so much data and then turns it into audio

w/o a hiccup.

Just one pedal push of an Expression pedal sends drawbar

values at such a high rate that the monitor keeps

cycling through it's viewer for an entire second after

the pedal has stopped.

 

Between the K4 controller and Scopes' MIDI devices, it's enormous,

but also add the articulations I control using

my feet for Horn Sections falls, swells, do-its and shakes,

then String articulations, lighting dimmer fades, sound fx

in real time using hardware.....

 

Bidule is King of stability for large data streaming work.

 

 

 

http://s3.postimg.org/wlb1j0g37/BIDULE.jpg

adult image

[Reezekeys]

I've been using Bidule for nine years as the hub of a virtual instrument rig so I'm well aware of its awesomeness! Unfortunately I don't believe it can help me here. If, on my A800 Pro with an adapter, the FC7 reaches CC value 127 after 1/5 to 1/3 of its travel, how can Bidule or any other sw remap things to give me a smooth 0 to 127 range over the entire travel? Not gonna happen.

 

I realize I'm somewhat contradicting what I said a few posts above, but I think I may have been mistaken then As I remember now, I get to max value pretty quickly once I start pressing the pedal down, and it just stays there for the remainder of the travel. So it's not really like a log curve response, rather it's linear only it hits max just a little bit into the travel.

[hardware]

Well I use a few expressions everynight and have since 2002 when I first tried this. If Scope DSP can have these devices so can Bidule.

You simply need control smoothers, lag processors, curve modifiers, offsets, fine tune control over destination and intensity controls.

It is simple manipulation of MIDI data.

The best feature is the ability to swell in real time using your foot as the travel mechanism, or just stomp on the expression and the selected function/preset has pre programmed the travel time, start and destination, even modifiers.

I do VCF Sweeps better than an engineer using a long throw fader and 2 hands.

Ask the gurus over at Plogue how to create such a device.

I was using your nifty PANIC Group until I got the Physis K4.

You simply gather the appropriate modules, connect them and stuff them into a group.

The below Scope device is the same, except they have excellent GUI options in their SDK.

 

 

http://s14.postimg.org/k0zhlzmo1/SWELL.jpg

imagehost

[EscapeRocks]

 

Reeze: besides the adapter I still had to change the polarity setting in the system menu on my FA-08 for it to work. On mine it was a choice between normal and reverse.

 

If you have this parameter available see if that make a difference along with the adapter

That might explain things. I have no such parameter on my keyboard.

 

I think you're correct. Just as I have a parameter in the system settings to have standard or reverse polarity for the Hold (sustain) jack, I have the same choices for the two Control pedal jacks.

 

Interesting that the A800 doesn't provide that. Maybe it's due to the workstation nature of the FA.

[Reezekeys]

Well I use a few expressions everynight and have since 2002 when I first tried this. If Scope DSP can have these devices so can Bidule.

You simply need control smoothers, lag processors, curve modifiers, offsets, fine tune control over destination and intensity controls.

It is simple manipulation of MIDI data.

The best feature is the ability to swell in real time using your foot as the travel mechanism, or just stomp on the expression and the selected function/preset has pre programmed the travel time, start and destination, even modifiers.

I do VCF Sweeps better than an engineer using a long throw fader and 2 hands.

Ask the gurus over at Plogue how to create such a device.

What you've done is very impressive but I really don't think it applies to my situation. I'm looking to use the FC7 as a straight-up volume pedal that can send 0 to 127 over its entire range of motion. I know I can set something up in Bidule to trigger a series of CC#7 midi events that will span this range, but I'm not looking to do anything like that. Unless I'm misunderstanding (wouldn't be the first time ).

 

There is no way I can think of that that this pedal will do a smooth & even 0 to 127 range using its full travel on my A800, adapter or not this is a limitation of the A800 and how it's reading the voltage from the pedal; it's expecting a 10K pot and the Yamaha's is 50K. Again it hits 127 very early in its travel, then continues sending 127 the remainder of its range. How do you remap a controller that's sending a constant stream of 127s to a range of values?

[Reezekeys]

 

Reeze: besides the adapter I still had to change the polarity setting in the system menu on my FA-08 for it to work. On mine it was a choice between normal and reverse.

 

If you have this parameter available see if that make a difference along with the adapter

That might explain things. I have no such parameter on my keyboard.

 

I think you're correct. Just as I have a parameter in the system settings to have standard or reverse polarity for the Hold (sustain) jack, I have the same choices for the two Control pedal jacks.

 

Interesting that the A800 doesn't provide that. Maybe it's due to the workstation nature of the FA.

On the A800 you can "reverse" a controller by programming the "minimum value" to 127 and the "maximum value" to 0. I'm pretty sure that is not the same as what the "reverse polarity" setting on the FA-08 is, but maybe I'm wrong? I'm guessing the main application for reversing the data transmission values is to use the sliders as organ drawbars you need the topmost position to be "off." I was able to reverse the expression pedal though it works with all the controllers.

 

Yea the A800 is a curious mix of features. A tiny, crappy display. Stupid transpose feature. Only three "keyboard memories" with settings for split points & transpose value (no matter to me as I use Bidule for zoning & transposing). But it also has three sensitivity settings for the keyboard's velocity response, in addition to selectable velocity curves it's what makes it the most "playable" controller to me (in the price & weight range I need!). And speaking of price & weight it's pretty light in both departments. And I fly with it all the time and so far it's holding up pretty well (just found some wood to knock on here!).

 

My guess is when it comes to pedals, Roland just wants me to buy theirs. Almost double the price of the Yamaha and all plastic. No thanks the M-Audio pedal is fine. I'm resigned to the Yamaha pedal never working well with the A800.

[hardware]

I am assuming the A800 is the Roland. If it doesn't have internal sounds then it is a controller and sends MIDI into Bidule. This is where you can modify the last century technology, or even if it is controlling internal Keyboard sounds (I don't know) 32bit MIDI can still be applied.

Below is Bidule using 32bit MIDI specs.

Notice knob #1 is set at 0.

Knob #2 is at 100,000, which in Alexander Graham Bell days of MIDI is 127.

Love to see you get some happiness from your investment. The idea a person uses an expression pedal for 0-127 is painful just thinking about it.

 

Can't you send the FC7 into Bidule and spit it back out to the A800 or your favorite mixer/plug ins...?

 

 

http://s24.postimg.org/67nyc3lf9/32bit_MIDI.jpg

pic upload

[Reezekeys]

I guess I'm not explaining myself clearly enough? I thought I was but let me try again. The A800 is a controller only, I'm sending note & controller data from it to my virtual instruments hosted in Bidule. That includes data generated from moving the FC7, which is connected to the A800's expression pedal jack through an adapter that switches the tip & ring. I'm okay with 0 to 127 (I've never heard any stairstepping), and for local gigs I use an M-Audio expression pedal that works great with the A800. When I go on the road I rely on what backline companies give me, which 90% of the time is the Yamaha FC7. The FC7 with the adapter (the purported subject of this thread LOL), does not interface properly with my A800 the midi generated from moving the FC7 goes from 0 to 127 in the first 1/5 to 1/3 of the FC7's travel. It stays at 127 for the duration of the travel. Maybe Stephen Hawking or the Amazing Randi can figure out a way to have an FC7 give me a smooth 0 to 127 over the full length of its travel while hooked up to my A800, but it seems like what you're talking about is something completely different. If I'm missing something, please fill me in how could the Scope plugin give me what I need?

[Markay]

Reeze I think you nailed it with Roland 10k v Yamaha 50k resistance. As soon as the Yamaha sends 10k the Roland A800 treats this as 127 which is the max output of the Roland EV5. Simple maths the Roland A800 is reading the first 20% of travel sent by the FC7 as 0 to 127.

 

No amount of upstream scaling is going to change the fact that you only have the first 20% of FC7 pedal travel to work with if the controller is unable to sense and adjust between 10k and 50k.

 

My Boss FV500l has a 10k pot for expression and works fine over the full range with M-Audio controller which is not surprising as the M-Audio pedal is also 10k.

 

I would find being limited to 20% travel really annoying as it is a virtual on-off switch. I guess your options are to tell the backline supplier you need a low impedance expression pedal - Not a Yamaha -, travel with the M-Audio and risk breakage, or get a FV500L which is made of metal and built like a tank.

[Reezekeys]

No amount of upstream scaling is going to change the fact that you only have the first 20% of FC7 pedal travel to work with if the controller is unable to sense and adjust between 10k and 50k.

Thank you! You said in way fewer words what I thought I was saying in my last few posts!

 

I guess your options are to tell the backline supplier you need a low impedance expression pedal - Not a Yamaha -, travel with the M-Audio and risk breakage, or get a FV500L which is made of metal and built like a tank.

I came up with another option get used to doing the gig without a pedal! I assigned a slider on my A800 to send the pedal controller info. I'm usually just sustaining a string pad so I have a hand free to work a slider.

[mate stubb]

The implementation of the pedal read mechanism in the Roland is stupid. There is no reason for that circuit to be sensitive to resistance.

 

They should have designed it to treat the pedal as a voltage divider, feeding a fixed voltage to the tip and reading the variable voltage at the wiper. Many other keyboards do this.

[Reezekeys]

I completely agree about the pedal read. My impression is that they rushed this to market and needed to cut some corners, or maybe the r&d people were pressured to make sure it came in at a certain price. There are a few more examples I know of that lead me to believe this, but I don't want to get more OT!

[hardware]

The Scope plug in is proprietary, so no, but it's design can be reproduced by using the same modules in another format.

I dig the FC7 over EV-5s, which is why I bought the Ashby adapters, Otherwise the Physis K4 would not calibrate the pedals using voltage measuring techniques.

I then had 2 choices, Buy the adapters or send the FC7s into Bidule and Scope, and then loopback to the K4 USB Port 1-4, or MIDI 1-2 inputs, then back into Bidule.

 

Sure it is much easier to use an adapter, or re wire the FC7s as we see many have done online.

I DO understand the problem though, as I have dealt with this ever since the Roland A90/Oberheim MC3000 days.

 

Probably why Physis K4s' have such an excellent calibration protocol, so they can use a wider variety of pedals, but they must be designed like a Roland EV5, or use the Ashby adapter.

I am just thinking that going to Bidule and bypassing the A800 is another option.

 

Also the Behringer FCV-100s have CV outputs as well as regular TRS/TS jacks to use audio, just in case you ever need CV Audio.

But there's more than 1 way to skin a cat.

 

Below is the K4 Calbration screen. I could not get the FC7 below 50% for the calibration process to proceed, so the Ashby got me the proper reads as the adapter crossed wires so the voltage could be read.

 

But I could have just used a MIDI Solutions Pedal Controller, or a MIDI In via soundcard, and then looped back into the controller.

 

Modern day controllers are basically junk, which is why I finally broke down and got the Physis K4. With the K4 and Ashby adapters I can use the Leadfoot Expressions pedals from the UK, Roland, M Audio, Yamaha, Kurzweil, Casio, all of the above and everything in between, so the Ashby is a great investment.

 

But bypassing the controller into MIDI In of the laptop would yield much better results. Maybe a MIDI Solutions Merge. One from the keyboard one from a MIDI Solutions Pedal Controller.

Actually I have several MIDI Solutions Pedals, for your gift of the Panic Group in Bidule allow me to send you one free of charge, you cover shipping costs.

After all you are a fellow performer, we are brothas' from other mothas'.

Maybe then you will design a group to use in Bidule that offers the same treats as Scope DSP does.

Karma is invisible and all encompassing.....pm me for the Pedal Controller if you wish to try it out.

But please if you say yes, read the software programming tools at their main website, download the app and then customize the controller so you can just play keys on the Roland.

 

http://s29.postimg.org/3tqo1p37r/PHYSIS_K4_Calibration.jpg

adult image sharing

[JeffLearman]

I may have found the answer to why some folks have good results with adapting the FC7 to Roland gear while my experience is not as good. It's in the comments section of this post. Maybe someone with more EE knowledge can chime in but it has to do with a "ratio check" that some connected gear does or might do. Or maybe I'm just not lucky!

 

An expression pedal is a voltage divider. In theory, the connected gear shouldn't care what the pot resistance is, but instead should see the ratio. However, for practical reasons, there needs to be buffering resistors on the keyboard. That's so that it doesn't draw lots of current on one end when the wiper is at that end.

 

If the buffering resistors are much higher than the sweep resistor, that'll skew the results. There also may be issues if the pot resistance is way too high, but I haven't tried to do the math (and I'm not an EE so I might get the math wrong, but this is a pretty simple E=IR case.)