Considering rig change - please weigh in

[Dr88s]

You would think that given the amount of time I spend thinking about my rig, I'm a busy gigging musician. It's quite the opposite; I play once evening a week recreationally with 'for fun' bands and gig once a year, usually at a fairly large charity fundraiser.

 

My current setup is a Korg M50 (73 keys) on the bottom and a Roland VR-09 on top. The VR-09 is a newer addition which I got because I was not happy with any ROMpler organ in terms of adjustability.

 

I love my M50 because of its weight and portability as well as its very large collection of good diverse sounds across the board. I NEVER use it for sequencing / songwriting / "workstation" abilities.

 

Musically, while I would mostly want to play piano/EP/organ parts, depending on the band and songlist I've found myself playing synth lines, brass stabs, etc. more often. (At my gig this week, I had to play an accordion line on the M50 as well as a brass section...)

 

My important needs in a keyboard are:

1. Weight / portability. I hate schlepping equipment.

2. Good variety of sounds as a 'swiss army knife' keyboard

3. Ability to do some editing fairly easily. I am not a very good sound programmer, but if the band wants to play 'Won't Get Fooled Again', I know enough to put an organ through a square LFO routed to amp level and a sine LFO to filter cutoff. I like the M50s ability to eventually get what I want, but the tradeoff is that I find programming it quite hard and hidden in many pages of complicated menus.

 

My major reason for wanting to change is to get a weighted action board. I realized at this week's gig that I just can't play synth action well enough.

 

All that said, I am thinking of upgrading my beloved M50 for a Casio PX-5S. I tried it out locally this weekend and found the action to be very nice and the schlep factor VERY ACCEPTABLE for the size of the board. The people around here seem to love it and that's worth a lot to me. I found the interface very odd and hard to navigate but since I watched Mike Martin's webcast on YouTube, this doesn't seem to be an issue.

 

Considering what I've written, I'd appreciate if you would please weigh in on whether you think the PX5S would be a good alternate to my M50, bearing in mind that I'll have a VR-09 on top, which can still do some pads, brass, stings in addition to the Organ engine. I've played around with the VR-09's VA synth editor on the iPad but wasn't able to effectively program the sounds I was after.

 

Sorry for the length of the post but I figured that the more information you have about my needs, the better you will be able to advise me.

 

Thanks.

[Ken Beaumont]

A big glaring omission on the VR-09 is the lack of arpeggiator.

 

But to your point the PX5s sounds like a very reasonable alternative for your needs. A MOXF 8 or Krome would work well too but the MOXF isn't the easiest to program! I really like the Krome LCD display.

[HAMEGZ]

A big glaring omission on the VR-09 is the lack of arpeggiator.

 

A MOXF 8 or Krome would work well too but the MOXF isn't the easiest to program! .

 

Thats true from the front panel, however with John Melas software programming becomes a joy and drag and drop ..

[Dr88s]

A big glaring omission on the VR-09 is the lack of arpeggiator.

 

But to your point the PX5s sounds like a very reasonable alternative for your needs. A MOXF 8 or Krome would work well too but the MOXF isn't the easiest to program! I really like the Krome LCD display.

 

Both the Krome 88 and MOXF 8 are 32 lbs, ~30% heavier than PX-5S and both are $600 more. Neither a deal-breaker certainly, but factors to be considered.

 

I have never used an arpeggiator live. My take on them was that they are mostly for pop / dance music. When would I want to use one for more rock based material? In any event if required I could always bring along my receptor - a lot of the softsynths have built in arpeggiators.

 

 

[resigned]

This isn't what you want to hear, but you asked for opinion so....

 

After decades of trying to perform every possible instrument asked of me by bands I realized that I was not doing enough to focus on my own artistic needs and expression as a keyboard musician. The band's need to "play it like the record" was limiting me, and the band actually, from coming up with original arrangements and making our own music as opposed to copying others.

 

While I still have synths in my studio, the keyboards I now use live focus on piano, organ, and various EP's and I make it clear that I do not do horn lines or synth sequences. This changes the bands that I can work with of course but I believe for the better.

 

Of course this may have nothing to do with ycur desires as a keyboardist, but bands don't last and making gear decisions to fit the needs of the band instead of fitting your own long-term needs and growth is worth examining.

[Dr88s]

This isn't what you want to hear, but you asked for opinion so....

 

After decades of trying to perform every possible instrument asked of me by bands I realized that I was not doing enough to focus on my own artistic needs and expression as a keyboard musician. The band's need to "play it like the record" was limiting me, and the band actually, from coming up with original arrangements and making our own music as opposed to copying others.

 

I get your point completely and I've seen the same idea expressed on many other threads here recently.

 

I considered doing as many here suggested and saying flat out that I don't play horn lines, but, thinking about it further, realized that as this was something I'd never done before, it _was_ contributing to my personal growth as a musician.

 

Also, taking where I am coming from, as a professional by day and an amateur having fun by night, my primary focus is to play WITH other musicians, preferably much better than me (I've learned that this is the best way to improve), so I try not to be too choosy and push myself to play what's asked of me.

 

[Ken Beaumont]

Yes, its hard to beat the schlepp factor of the PX-5S!

As I get older the crowds get comparatively a little younger, so we have been getting more requests for pop/dance music. Thus, the arpeggiator comment. I have been working on a couple of tracks to add a couple of tunes. Though we are really not happy with the idea, but the requests have come from the club owner. We do like to keep them happy.

[Dr88s]

This isn't what you want to hear, but you asked for opinion so....

 

 

That said, I am not buying a new board so that I will be able to 'sound like the record', but anything new that I buy should at least be versatile enough to do so if the situation requires.

 

After about 2 years exclusively playing synth action, the main reason I want weighted is to return to my musical roots and play more piano/EP oriented material.

 

*EDIT* - Happy 100th post to me!

[area51recording]

This isn't what you want to hear, but you asked for opinion so....

 

After decades of trying to perform every possible instrument asked of me by bands I realized that I was not doing enough to focus on my own artistic needs and expression as a keyboard musician. The band's need to "play it like the record" was limiting me, and the band actually, from coming up with original arrangements and making our own music as opposed to copying others.

 

While I still have synths in my studio, the keyboards I now use live focus on piano, organ, and various EP's and I make it clear that I do not do horn lines or synth sequences. This changes the bands that I can work with of course but I believe for the better.

 

Of course this may have nothing to do with ycur desires as a keyboardist, but bands don't last and making gear decisions to fit the needs of the band instead of fitting your own long-term needs and growth is worth examining.

 

 

THIS!! When you think about it, it really is BS....Guitar player plays guitar, bass player plays bass, drummer drums, singer sings, keyboard player plays piano, organ, clav, string section, brass section, hand claps, childrens choir, etc....etc....etc. Oh, and also write charts, arrange vocals, answer any pertinent theory questions, all for the same $$$ as everyone else on stage.....

[AnotherScott]

A big glaring omission on the VR-09 is the lack of arpeggiator.

 

But to your point the PX5s sounds like a very reasonable alternative for your needs. A MOXF 8 or Krome would work well too but the MOXF isn't the easiest to program! I really like the Krome LCD display.

 

Both the Krome 88 and MOXF 8 are 32 lbs, ~30% heavier than PX-5S and both are $600 more. Neither a deal-breaker certainly, but factors to be considered.

 

I have never used an arpeggiator live. My take on them was that they are mostly for pop / dance music. When would I want to use one for more rock based material? In any event if required I could always bring along my receptor - a lot of the softsynths have built in arpeggiators.

 

I'm another one who has never had much use for arpeggiators, wouldn't be a factor for me either.

 

Another board you might look at is the Kross 88, which (unlike the Krome 88) is in the PX-5S price range, and a bit closer to it in weight as well. It would give you much of the Korg sound you already like in the M50. The PX-5S has the advantage of still lighter weight, better action by most accounts, smaller size overall, and more real time controls (i.e. the knobs and sliders, though no expression pedal input). The Korg has a bigger, more informative screen and more differentiated button layout that I think makes it easier to operate. Which sounds better probably depends on personal taste as well as which kinds of sounds you're most interested in.

[Kevmo]

8Boards 25yrs never used one

[Kevmo]

I like playin other sounds within reason. Horns strings etc. Just used the vr09 accordian for Dropkick Murphys shippin off to Boston .lotsO fun

[WesG]

I use something like an arpeggiator to play the intro to Money For Nothing. Only thing I've ever used one for. I pull out my iPad for that song...

[Mike Martin]

The PX-5S has 4 arpeggiators, ridiculously programmable. It could be used to control a sound on the VR-09 if needed.

[J. Dan]

This may sound overkill at first but hear me out....

If you're already comfortable with the M50 interface and like a lot of the sounds, and you got the VR-09 to mostly supplement the organ and synth, what about replacing your whole rig with a Kronos 61 and an 88 key controller? I know, sounds overkill and expensive. But bear with me and you'll see it's not as much more as you might think.

 

But first, advantages: everything in one box, and all of them better than what you have... CX-3 engine, especially with the latest OS, is really good, pianos are good, 3 VA engines all good, good sample library and the ability to add more. All in one box means you can set it all up with your familiar interface, and add on top of that setlist mode and you don't have to mix multiple keys - one audio out, ready to go. Only connection is a midi cable (or class compliant USB) in between. I'd go kronos 61 so that it's on your top tier with the interface available and you can pick a much lighter weight 88 key controller (like the casio).

 

So let's talk money. Assume you sell the old rig and buy used. Looking at completed Ebay auctions, you can land $650-700 for the M50-73, and $750-850 for the VR-09. So figure $1500 for the pair. There's a Kronos 61 with a buy it now of $1880 right now, sold PX-5s range $700-800. So potentially $2580 for a net spend of $1080. And I'm guessing there are cheaper models of privias that would work (I don't know much about them) and that you could shave a few hundred off of that.

 

Just a thought.

[AnotherScott]

And I'm guessing there are cheaper models of privias that would work (I don't know much about them) and that you could shave a few hundred off of that.

The Kronos is one of the few keyboards that can directly accept USB connection from a slave board, so even the PX-150 would work.

 

Interesting approach there. I agree, I think a Kronos would sonically beat an M50 and a VR-09 in probably every respect. The biggest downside might be the weight difference. Assuming a 24 lb Casio on the bottom, there's a noticeable shlep difference between a 12 lb VR-09 and a 28 lb Kronos for the second board.

 

[Bill H.]

All that said, I am thinking of upgrading my beloved M50 for a Casio PX-5S. I found the interface very odd and hard to navigate but since I watched Mike Martin's webcast on YouTube, this doesn't seem to be an issue.

Oh it's still an issue. Mike is simply amazing.

 

That said, once you get used to the Casio way of doing things, sound creation and editing gets a lot easier. This is partially helped by the fact that there aren't a heck of a lot of parameters in the way of your work flow. But the essentials are definitely there. This is not a keyboard that gives you every option under the sun to deal with, but that's fine by me.

 

The PX-5s's strengths (by far!) are it's acoustic piano and almost VA-like synth plus it's very flexible controller section. Waveform ROM other than the acoustic piano is relatively weak and horribly unorganized, with numerous duplications but with different names. It feels like Casio just dumped the waveform ROM of several of it's previous keyboards into this one without editing out the duplications.

 

That said, I love my PX-5s. But I have to be honest about what it is and isn't.

[stillplaying]

One of your suggestions was to sell the Korg M50 and get the PX5S. I think that's a good option for you.

 

I also like Dan's (more expensive) suggestion if money isn't a huge factor and you want to have a bit of a mess around with sounds and samples at home.

[Dr88s]

Wow. Now many more things to consider.

 

Will respond to each in turn, but working right now so will try to be brief.

 

Start with JustDan. Thanks for the detailed analysis. Checking Ebay prices goes above and beyond the typical answer.

 

Yes, I lust for a Kronos. While money certainly is not no object (pardon the double negative), that is not the major impediment to buying one.

 

I have played around with controllers controlling rack units, softsynths, other boards, etc, and while in most cases I've had no problems, the KISS principle here prevails that I am more comfortable with each board triggering its own internal sounds not having to worry about MIDI weirdness. I have countless times run into that awful moment when your board isn't playing what you expect it to because you accidentally touched some slider on your controller that you didn't even know was mapped to anything and suddenly you're transposed -3 or something.

 

The other BIG turn off about the Kronos is the boot up time. The first time I demoed one, I was certain that is was broken until >2 minutes later, it was ready. I have kids and other responsibilities and sometimes only get fifteen minutes to sneak downstairs and play. I would get terribly frustrated having to spend a large part of that waiting for the unit to boot. Also, take my gig this week - about 4 or 5 minutes of downtime between bands, during which the stage crew set me up leaving me 1 minute to spare. I wouldn't possibly have the kronos up and running for downbeat.

 

Add to that the extra weight, and, unfortuantely, it does not seem to be the way to go. I really want it to be. I love the idea of being able to bring in new samples, part of the reason I still hang on to an old Receptor.

 

 

[Dr88s]

BillH your post worries me the most. While I do not intend to have to use the 'other' waveforms too often, it would be nice to know that they are at least there and accessible without too much fiddling about.

 

I have looked on youtube for the 'VA'-like capabilities, but so far most of the videos that I've seen demo the presets and concept of hex layer, not the programmability.

 

From your experience, can the PX-5S do something simple enough like what I outlined about for the LFO filtered pulsing sounds of 'Won't Get Fooled Again'? This is certainly not what I primarily intend to use it for. Looking for nice APs EPs and most importantly nice action in a lightweight board, but it does have to be versatile.

 

 

 

 

[Mike Martin]

The Don't Get Fooled patch is a factory preset.

[Mike Martin]

Dr. 88,

The "Hey Layers" on the PX-5S is really the synth and deep section of the PX-5S. Basically its a sound that can have anywhere between 1 and 6 layers at once. Each layer has its own Filter and Filter Envelope, Pitch Envelope, Amp Envelope and more. Each of the six layers can be split, layered or velocity switched.

 

In dB's review at Harmony Central, he mentioned the he was surprised that the PX-5S was called Privia because the synth side is so deep.

http://www.harmonycentral.com/t5/Expert-Reviews/Casio-PX-5S/ba-p/35927051

 

[Michael W]

THIS!! When you think about it, it really is BS....Guitar player plays guitar, bass player plays bass, drummer drums, singer sings, keyboard player plays piano, organ, clav, string section, brass section, hand claps, childrens choir, etc....etc....etc.

 

Add flute, solo violin, steel drums, electronic drums, acoustic guitar, synth leads, synth pads, synth bass, miscellaneous crazy synth stuff, solo sax, bells, vibes, congas, harmonica, etc. etc.

 

[Dr88s]

I think I will try to sell my unused Motif rack XS (look out for it soon on the KC marketplace!) and apply the proceeds towards the Privia . I will keep the M50 For the time being and focus my efforts on not getting divorced for bringing home yet another keyboard. I will use the PX-5S as a bottom and VR-09 as top and if things go well, will sell the M50 and apply the proceeds to upgrade my Receptor to the VIP model.

 

Sounds like a plan, though nowhere it does it include any time to practice and try improve my chops, unfortunately

 

... But I cannot stop mulling over Dan's Kronos suggestion...

[Dr88s]

Mike Martin:

 

Having seen many of your excellent videos on YouTube, I now love your avatars!

 

[J. Dan]

Wow. Now many more things to consider.

 

Will respond to each in turn, but working right now so will try to be brief.

 

Start with JustDan. Thanks for the detailed analysis. Checking Ebay prices goes above and beyond the typical answer.

 

Yes, I lust for a Kronos. While money certainly is not no object (pardon the double negative), that is not the major impediment to buying one.

 

I have played around with controllers controlling rack units, softsynths, other boards, etc, and while in most cases I've had no problems, the KISS principle here prevails that I am more comfortable with each board triggering its own internal sounds not having to worry about MIDI weirdness. I have countless times run into that awful moment when your board isn't playing what you expect it to because you accidentally touched some slider on your controller that you didn't even know was mapped to anything and suddenly you're transposed -3 or something.

 

The other BIG turn off about the Kronos is the boot up time. The first time I demoed one, I was certain that is was broken until >2 minutes later, it was ready. I have kids and other responsibilities and sometimes only get fifteen minutes to sneak downstairs and play. I would get terribly frustrated having to spend a large part of that waiting for the unit to boot. Also, take my gig this week - about 4 or 5 minutes of downtime between bands, during which the stage crew set me up leaving me 1 minute to spare. I wouldn't possibly have the kronos up and running for downbeat.

 

Add to that the extra weight, and, unfortuantely, it does not seem to be the way to go. I really want it to be. I love the idea of being able to bring in new samples, part of the reason I still hang on to an old Receptor.

 

 

Disclaimer, I'm using a Kronos 61 on top with an A70 on bottom, so I'm biased. I have always had an (at least) 2 keyboard setup plus often external modules. MIDI weirdness, I get. But you know the M50 Combi page. That's it. Unlike using modules, you have that one display that shows you everything with direct access. The lower keyboard is just that - another keyboard, like a dual manual Kronos. I've been using it that way for almost 2 years and have never had any glitch. But if you used something like the PX-5s, in a pinch you could move your 1/4" down to the privia and just use that until you got it sorted out.

 

Regarding boot time...yeah, it sucks. I've gotten into the habit when I'm setting up of plopping the kronos on the stand and plugging it in first. By the time everything else is in place and wired up, it's done booting. Luckily, it doesn't auto sense things like sustain, so you can boot without anything plugged into it THEN plug in the pedals, audio, midi, etc. I also use a small power strip style UPS. I've plugged it into that and powered it up with no AC power available before when I was in a big pinch. So yes, booting up before I was even able to plug it into the wall. There's a solution to every problem, you just sometimes have to re-think the way you're used to doing things.

 

 

EDIT: (and kind of OT), but once I showed up for a wedding rehearsal at an outdoor pavilion and the Park had not turned on the power. I did the rehearsal running the Kronos AND my K10 off the UPS not plugged in. I kept the K10 turned off except the part of the service when I needed to play, just to save battery.

[Bill H.]

BillH your post worries me the most. While I do not intend to have to use the 'other' waveforms too often, it would be nice to know that they are at least there and accessible without too much fiddling about.

Stage settings are easy to navigate once you know how. This keyboard really needed one more thing - a rotary scroller just to the right of the display, which would have made a lot of things much easier to do. As it is, for this job you have to do a bank select for every set of ten.

 

Just to set the record straight, tones are very well organized by type. It's the underlying waveform ROM that could have definitely used some tidying up.

 

Best advice as always is to try and then decide if it's a fit for you.

 

[Dr88s]

Best advice as always is to try and then decide if it's a fit for you.

 

Absolutely true. The best demos are done once you have already familiarized yourself with the machine so that you get quality time with it, rather than figuring things out the first time you sit down with it.

 

Even more important, you should already have enumerated a list of things that you expect it to be able to do. Therein lies my problem; I'm sure this is easy for the pro player to do as he/she is familiar with the daily demands needed, but for a more neophyte weekend warrior like myself, I don't always realize the shortcomings of a particular board until I need to do something new and realize that the board cannot do it.

[Dr88s]

But if you used something like the PX-5s, in a pinch you could move your 1/4" down to the privia and just use that until you got it sorted out..

 

I'm not sure if I could justify spending $1000 on the PX5S just to use it as a controller and rely on its internal sounds 'just in case'. Granted. Many other 88 key piano actions are much less expensive.

 

[

EDIT: (and kind of OT), but once I showed up for a wedding rehearsal at an outdoor pavilion and the Park had not turned on the power. I did the rehearsal running the Kronos AND my K10 off the UPS not plugged in. I kept the K10 turned off except the part of the service when I needed to play, just to save battery.

 

I think I would wet myself in that situation :-)

[Shamanczarek]

If you can't justify $1000 for a PX-5S check out Pro Audio Star in Brooklyn, NY where I bought mine. You can ask them for a lower price.