13 note pedal bass vs. 25 for organ use..?

[surreal mccoy]

In my recent "Hammond clone" search, I noticed the Crumar Mojo has an option to add a 13 note pedal bass to the purchase. My question (as I plan to learn to use the bass pedals) is if 13 notes as opposed to to 25 would be sufficient for Jazz organ?

 

Has anyone attempted to compare?

 

Thanks.....

[Bobadohshe]

For jazz, most likely. For classical absolutely not.

[surreal mccoy]

Thanks Bobadoshe.....I guess as long as I don't attempt to imitate Barbara Dennerlein....

[Bobadohshe]

I'll also say wait until the jazz organ heavies on this forum chime in. I am a lightweight compared to those around here with the deep deep knowledge of jazz organ.

[mate stubb]

Most jazz pedal work consists of tapping and the occasional ballad work. You can accomplish this on a 13 note pedalboard.

 

To me the range isn't the issue, it's the layout. I learned on a 32 note concave radiating AGO pedal board, so even the normal 25 note hammond pedal board gives me problems.

[Bobadohshe]

I learned on a 32 note concave radiating AGO pedal board, so even the normal 25 note hammond pedal board gives me problems.

 

Recently I have been studying classical organ and I am finding the same thing is confunds me. I take lessons on a local $500,000 Allen but practice on my Hammond A-100 at home and it's more than a simple adjustment. And don't get me started on the 13 note plastic stubs on the Electone D-80 at Petco Park...

[tompass]

LH more important when playing jazz organ. I have a 13 pedal set that I use now and then but mostly for ground tones. Useful on ballads when you want to sustain a root tone and free up LH to other things.

[Jazzmammal]

Totally agree Tom. Even with the monster players we all know and love very few actually run the pedals on up tempo stuff, Barbara is of course a fantastic exception. Even Joey D will just punch the root note or maybe the 1 and 5 but he's doing most of the work with his LH. Except for ballads.

 

A stock B3 needs some pedal help because the lower manual doesn't go low enough by itself but all the clones I've seen will route the pedal drawbars to the lower manual. I assume the Mojo does too but I've never seen one.

 

Bob

[John Tweed]

How about one pedal? The SK1 can be set up to trigger the manual bass, tracking the lowest note being played on the keyboard. So I can tap along with left hand bass for the jazz organ stuff, or hold a bass note for the ballads. It's not going to help much with learning pedals, but it's a much easier cartage and setup. I use a Boss FS6 dual footswitch, one to switch Lelie speed, and one for the bass.

 

John

[CEB]

It is hard to run the pedals on a Hammond because you I ride the swell pedal with your right foot.

[surreal mccoy]

Thanks guys, I appreciate your replies...

[J_tour]

tracking the lowest note being played on the keyboard.

 

Neat idea, using a regular footswitch. You're saying you could double a line with full pedals, like walking up to a V7 or IV with just the one pedal, right?

 

That's a neat way to get most of the good sound with just another small thing to carry -- great trick. Might be stealing that one!

[tompass]

BD is outrageous with those pedals. Almost does not seem possible but she gets it done!

[J_tour]

BD is outrageous with those pedals. Almost does not seem possible but she gets it done!

 

Well, yeah, that she does.

 

I still like the cleaner sound (IMHO) of LH bass with tapping, but the thing you can't do with just one pedal-tap is really emphasize what you want in "big" parts of, say, an 8-bar section.

 

The XK-1 and XK-3 (I only have an XK-1 now, sort of the "engine" of my modest rig) can't set velocity curves to really replicate AFAIK what people like Groove Holmes and Dr. Lonnie and everybody does when really putting their foot down.

 

FWIW, I still find the right foot, expression pedal, far more difficult than just swamping around with the left foot -- I still tend to beat time with the right foot, but only a little. That took me a LONG time to unlearn, coming from piano.

 

Whenever somebody mentions the pedals, I always say, it's the right foot that's the tricky one. Goes against everything you'd think.

[lightbg]

Pedals aren't that hard as long as you can heel and toe. Tonewheels can't sustain, so you need as much time in the "on" position as you can get, otherwise it sounds detached and doesn't swing. If it took a genius I couldn't do it, but here's an example I shot the day after I got my PedalKeys 27:

 

 

If the 13 note board is made like a spinet organ, you can't heel and toe because the naturals aren't long enough....that's why I bought the 27. Plenty of length yet still pretty portable. I never could get used to LH bass on a keyboard - it seemed like I was wasting 1/3 of my sound.

 

YMMV

 

Jake

[Santa]

Pedals aren't that hard as long as you can heel and toe. Tonewheels can't sustain, so you need as much time in the "on" position as you can get, otherwise it sounds detached and doesn't swing. If it took a genius I couldn't do it, but here's an example I shot the day after I got my PedalKeys 27:

 

 

If the 13 note board is made like a spinet organ, you can't heel and toe because the naturals aren't long enough....that's why I bought the 27. Plenty of length yet still pretty portable. I never could get used to LH bass on a keyboard - it seemed like I was wasting 1/3 of my sound.

 

YMMV

 

Jake

 

That's some great playing there! Thanks for sharing the vid

[Jim Alfredson]

Most jazz pedal work consists of tapping and the occasional ballad work. You can accomplish this on a 13 note pedalboard.

 

Not for me it doesn't.

 

I like the XPK-200L. 20 notes, almost full-sized, not too much different than the standard Hammond 25-note pedal board.

 

13 spinet pedals would not work for me.

[surreal mccoy]

Most jazz pedal work consists of tapping and the occasional ballad work. You can accomplish this on a 13 note pedalboard.

 

Not for me it doesn't.

 

I like the XPK-200L. 20 notes, almost full-sized, not too much different than the standard Hammond 25-note pedal board.

 

13 spinet pedals would not work for me.

 

Thanks. This is good info as I noticed the shorter length on the 13 note pedal board. This seems like it wouldn't work well for the heel & toe movement.

[MonksDream]

BD is outrageous with those pedals. Almost does not seem possible but she gets it done!

Ms. Dennerlein is a pedal-playing bad ass! I worked with her 4 years ago as a stage and backline manager at a jazz festival in the mountains. Her bass pedal sound is actually an Akai S-90(?) bass sample she carries around on 3 1/2" floppy disks that's driven by MIDI from her pedals. You have no idea how hard it is to find a compatible unit in the middle of nowhere. We had to bring it in from Calgary. She also traveled with 2 Hammond dealers who took care of her New B3 rig on the tour. All that said I have no doubt she can kick pedals on anything she's provided. I've never seen pedal technique that astounding before or since.

[Paul Harrison]

I am comfortable playing bass with my left hand on a keyboard or with my toes (or heels and toes) on a 25-note pedalboard, but I first learned to play bass on a 13-note pedalboard, and I currently have a 20-note XPK200 pedalboard with my Hammond XK3c system, although I rarely go much beyond the first octave (and then I usually use my right foot for the highest few notes).

 

It takes some practice to get the knack of keeping up a walking bass line or a syncopated bass pattern on your toes within the 13-note range, but it can be done.

 

The main reasons that I went for the 20-note XPK200 were that unlike the 13-note XPK100, it enables the expression pedal to be mounted firmly in the traditional position on top of it, and it is more compact and portable than the 25-note EXP25K.

[Cloner]

The phenomenal Barbara Dennerlein reminds me of the pedal playing we used to do back in the Yamaha Electone Festival days. I think the key to the sound is a sustained bass tone (of course being able to play all of the notes helps). I still play the same way on the Hammond A at my church gig. It works, but requires a little extra since the pedals don't sustain. If you're playing a fast, continuous walking pattern that doesn't quit (ala Lady Dennerlein), you either need sustained pedal or your left hand. Other styles seem to work okay with the non-sustained bass (like that on my Hammond A), although it seems you have to work at it a little more.

 

I think this carries over to the issue of 13 vs. 25 note pedals. For the fast walking stuff, you need the 20 or 25 note pedalboard, a sustained bass tone and long pedals for heel-toe technique. Otherwise, fatigue can set in pretty quick. For the non-walking stuff, I've always been able to use a 13 note spinet board (still use my 13 note Elka when the need arises). The spinet board plus left hand bass for the fast walking tunes seems the best compromise in order to keep the gear tote-worthy.

[Mark Schmieder]

I was way more than just mildly impressed by John Paul Jones' pedal work in the Led Zeppelin Celebration live video. VERY fast and intricate work. I forget how many pedals. But he was doing a gazillion things at once, which made it even more impressive. Decades doing it, I suppose, but still... I imagine he's one of the true virtuosos out there, and it's his second instrument 9after bass guitar)!

 

So, anyway, I don't know what that says about pedal needs, but just thought I'd bring it up because it's always good to have an inspiration now and then that causes us to stretch. I tried a Fatar 13-pedal board for years and couldn't get comfortable, but did better on my church's organ with the 32 fanned pedals. A lot of organists take their shoes off so they can feel better, but I think most just do it enough that they know where everything is without looking or feeling. Just like we shouldn't look at the keyboard while playing, or the guitar or bass while playing.

[CEB]

....So, anyway, I don't know what that says about pedal needs, but just thought I'd bring it up because it's always good to have an inspiration now and then that causes us to stretch. I tried a Fatar 13-pedal board for years and couldn't get comfortable, but did better on my church's organ with the 32 fanned pedals. A lot of organists take their shoes off so they can feel better, but I think most just do it enough that they know where everything is without looking or feeling. Just like we shouldn't look at the keyboard while playing, or the guitar or bass while playing.

 

That is what is hard about a Hammond. On real organ pedal work you keep your knees centered and you use two feet. This maintains your reference so you don't have to look down. With a Hammond you play with one leg because riding the gas pedal and using it for expression is a big part of creating the Hammond sound. It is hard to not look down because I move my leg too much. I never could quite get it. .... but I'm a pianist. I took enough just enough classical organ to be dangerous.