Kronos - external control of drawbars question

[burningbusch]

I had a feeling Kurz would not require sysex. When it comes to MIDI functionality, Kurz always seems to do everything you want it to do, just the way you want it to do it. That's an area where they consistently lead over Korg, Roland, and Yamaha.

 

I agree that Kurzweil typically does a great job with MIDI. It's called the PC (performance controller) for good reason. But the MIDI chart above raises a question. Where is the lower manual drawbar list? And pedals? Does the PC3 have a full two manual + pedal emulation? I don't know, just asking.

 

Also, something Allan mentioned about unknown SYSEX on the Roland 50. I looked at the MIDI implementation on the Jupiter 80 and found the SYSEX implementation to be quite limited. Maybe there's more documentation elsewhere. I didn't see anything for the organ or much out side of the synth. It got me thinking that maybe the reason there are no full fledged editors for the Jupiters and Integra is that the SYSEX is limited. Without SYSEX, you can't do an editor.

 

Busch.

[wmp]

No, the KB3 is one manual only. If you want two manuals and pedals you have to use combinations and only one zone can be KB3. You have to use VAST organs for the other zones. You can do it, but you have a little programming to do. It's almost a clone, but not quite.

[Jamie Finstad]

 

Does that include the SK1? I'm trying to figure out how to use the DB-1 to control the lower manual on the SK-1.

Yes. Actually, the request for this feature was specifically to allow you to use a DB-1 to control the SK1 and SK2 lower organ manual. This firmware has already been written and I'm in the middle of testing it. If you're interested in helping beta test it, please PM me your email addy.

 

 

PM sent.

 

Jamie

[OB Dave]

OK, so I got home last night, exchanged some messages with Busch today, and it appears the drawbar commands can be reduced down to this:

 

[font:Courier New]* upper: F0 42 30 68 43 1D 00 00 04 xx 00 00 yy F7

* lower: F0 42 30 68 43 0B 06 00 01 xx 00 00 yy F7, where

* xx = db num (0-8)

* yy = positon (0-8)[/font]

 

I was expecting one of these bytes (not three of them) to differentiate upper and lower manual, but there you have it. Anyway, for those if you who want to roll your own, there's the recipe.

 

OB Dave - I'm trying to get the SysEx commands for the TW Organ engine in the Roland Jupiter-50. If I secure those, do you think there might be room for those strings as well ?

Yes, if you can get me those I'll add them to the DB-1.

 

wmp and AnotherScott, I'd completely forgotten about this, but I had already added a Kurzweil preset to the Configurator.

 

If you're curious how all this works, The DB-1 has two sets of MIDI jacks and you can use the Configurator with either set. So you can connect the MAIN jacks to your instrument (Nord, Kronos, whatever) and a USB-MIDI cable to the AUX MIDI jacks. That way you can tinker with values and see what happens without having to swap cables around. When you load the Configurator you see something like this (this is the Mac version but the Windows version works the same way):

 

http://www.oceanbeach.com/temp/ConfigMain.png

 

You can see by the values shown under the drawbars that it's currently configured to send MIDI CCs 16-24 on channel 1. You can click on any of these values and change them. The mode choices are D (drawbar - max value when drawbar pulled towards you) and F (fader - max value when drawbar pushed away from you).

 

The DB-1 button as shown here is currently configured to send CC 82 on Channel 1 with data values 0 and 127 on subsequent button presses (L - latched mode). There's also M (momentary mode) where a press sends one value, and release the other.

 

So you can configure the thing a zillion different ways. The "presets" button pre-loads the Configurator interface with some common instrument choices, and then you can tinker with the values before sending them off to the DB-1. The Kronos options were what I added today.

 

http://www.oceanbeach.com/temp/InstrumentSelect.png

 

Things get a little weird with the Kronos because we're in SYSEX-land (no CCs to tinker with) so those fields become hidden. If you configure the DB-1 for Kronos Upper or Kronos Lower, you still get to program the Button however you like. If you configure for "Kronos Both Manuals" the button is no longer programmable and instead tells the DB-1 to toggle between sending the two SYSEX strings shown above.

 

http://www.oceanbeach.com/temp/AfterSelectingKronos.png

 

I would be happy to test it.

 

Awesome, thanks! It seems to work but I'm just looking at hex values on a MIDI monitor. It looks right, but who knows how it drives. I need to do a little bit of cleanup work and sanity testing and I'll send you the files.

 

Many thanks everyone for all the help & suggestions.

[Kurt W]

Very impressed by your attention and speed!

[Kurt W]

I checked a bit on this information this morning:

OK, so I got home last night, exchanged some messages with Busch today, and it appears the drawbar commands can be reduced down to this:

* upper: F0 42 30 68 43 1D 00 00 04 xx 00 00 yy F7

* lower: F0 42 30 68 43 0B 06 00 01 xx 00 00 yy F7, where

* xx = db num (0-8)

* yy = positon (0-8)

 

I was expecting one of these bytes (not three of them) to differentiate upper and lower manual, but there you have it. Anyway, for those if you who want to roll your own, there's the recipe.

That is correct for a Program with a split organ (upper and lower manual on the same keyboard/keybed).

 

But it is a bit tricky to realize a dual manual organ involving for example a Kronos 61 on top and a 88 keys controller on the bottom. To do this you have to involve a Kronos Combination. A combi has up to 16 tracks and to my knowledge you have to use two separate tracks to make it, one for each manual. I put my Kronos on track 1 and the 88 keys controller on track 2. This is because in program mode there is no possibility to play the split via two different midi channels.

 

This is the implementation in combination mode:

 

upper: F0 42 30 68 43 1C tt 00 04 xx 00 00 yy F7 where

* tt = combination track 1-16(00-0F)

* xx = db num (0-8)

* yy = positon (0-8)

 

It should be possible to make a "de facto standard" of using the two first tracks making tt to 00 for upper and 01 for lower manual. In fact you may have two different organs on your upper and lower keyboards by this implementation. Maybe this complicates your implementation since Kronos operates different in program and combination mode. There is probably different opinions on what is most important, control of program or combination mode. Both is of course what I would hope for, but if I have to chose I vote on combination mode.....

 

Did you look into the chance to use the LED by the top button to indicate which manual the DB1 currently is controlling?

 

[wmp]

wmp and AnotherScott, I'd completely forgotten about this, but I had already added a Kurzweil preset to the Configurator.

They're not just for Nords anymore. Do they come in black yet?

 

I understand about forgetting stuff. Does the XK-3 actually work the way I think I remember? That'd open up a world of possibilities for somebody like me with an XK-3 and a PC3x. The biggest problem with the PC3x is the small number of physical controllers compared with all that can be controlled. Using the KB3 in program mode is unattractive because of the boot time thing. Using it in combination mode I'd want all the physical controllers I can get my hands on.

 

I can't run the Configurator without a DB-1. Can I set the drawbar mode for each manual?

 

[burningbusch]

Good catch Kurt. I wasn't even thinking about combi mode.

 

Busch.

[OB Dave]

Very impressed by your attention and speed!

That's what she said!

 

But it is a bit tricky to realize a dual manual organ involving for example a Kronos 61 on top and a 88 keys controller on the bottom. To do this you have to involve a Kronos Combination. A combo has up to 16 tracks and to my knowledge you have to use two separate tracks to make it, one for each manual.

Gah.

 

[video:youtube]

 

I kid, I kid!

 

Kurt, thanks very much for pointing this out. I agree that Combination mode should be supported. I think using your de facto standard will simplify things greatly on the implementation side, I would just need to document the correct track numbering so folks can configure their Kronos correctly. At this point I don't see a downside to supporting the three configurations just implemented (Kronos Upper, Kronos Lower, Kronos Both manuals split on the Kronos keyboard). I would just need to add a fourth mode: Combination (Kronos Two Manuals on separate keyboards).

 

So that would be

 

Combi Upper: F0 42 30 68 43 1C 00 00 04 xx 00 00 yy F7

Combi Lower: F0 42 30 68 43 1C 01 00 04 xx 00 00 yy F7 where

xx is drawbar number and yy is position (both 00-08).

 

Is this correct?

 

Did you look into the chance to use the LED by the top button to indicate which manual the DB1 currently is controlling?

No, not yet. Let's get MIDI going first and then I'll figure out what can be done with the LED.

 

I can't run the Configurator without a DB-1. Can I set the drawbar mode for each manual?

Yes, that's true. The Configurator is nothing more than a fancypants interface for generating OBD Sysex messages to reprogram the DB-1. I used to publish a Sysex programming guide and nobody ever wanted to deal with it. And frankly I think it's a bit much to ask musicians to fart around with hex codes in MIDI-OX to program a box.

 

I tried to make the Configurator as simple as possible, but I often bump up against limitations of the programming environment that creates it. Anyway, the Configurator wasn't intended to be a standalone app. With nothing to receive the OBD Sysex strings it really doesn't have a purpose in life, and in fact when there's no DB-1 connected I blank the screen on the Configurator. That way people know right away that something is misconfigured or the DB-1's not powered on, or whatever.

 

There's no way to set the drawbar mode for each manual - the drawbar modes are global. That'd be a huge task that I'm reluctant to take on.

 

Dave

 

[Kurt W]

Very impressed by your attention and speed!

That's what she said!

Forgot she also complained about your lower rotor only having single speed and to much use of stop mode?

 

So that would be

 

Combi Upper: F0 42 30 68 43 1C 00 00 04 xx 00 00 yy F7

Combi Lower: F0 42 30 68 43 1C 01 00 04 xx 00 00 yy F7 where

xx is drawbar number and yy is position (both 00-08).

 

Is this correct?

I have tested it on my Kronos and it works for me. Upper manual organ on track 1 and lower manual organ on track 2.

[OB Dave]

Forgot she also complained about your lower rotor only having single speed and to much use of stop mode?

 

Shhhh! Nobody's supposed to know about that!

 

OK, thanks again for all the legwork you've done on this. I'ma do some code cleanup and then send you some files to play with.

 

Dave

[AnotherScott]

The Kronos options were what I added today.

Is the Kronos functionality available to current DB-1 owners, just by downloading a software update?

 

Also, if you want to go back and forth between two setups... say, using your Kronos with DB-1 to trigger VB3 on your computer at home, but using it to trigger the Kronos' own CX3 mode at a gig where you're not bringing the computer... is there a way to program in those two sets of data in (perhaps in lieu of a more common upper and lower manual distinction) so you could switch between the two just using a button instead of having to load up the configurator software every time you wanted to switch from one to the other?

[OB Dave]

Is the Kronos functionality available to current DB-1 owners, just by downloading a software update?

Yep! It will be, anyway. I have not put this most recent version on the public part of the website yet because it's still being tested. And I'm also in the midst of adding Roland Jupiter 80 functionality, which also uses Sysex. And I recently added support for Hammond-Suzuki's weirdo CC scheme, so all of that stuff will become available at once. Current DB-1 owners will be able to download it for free and flash it in, just as they have with previous firmware updates. You just need a generic USB-MIDI cable (which you also need for the Configurator).

 

Also, if you want to go back and forth between two setups... say, using your Kronos with DB-1 to trigger VB3 on your computer at home, but using it to trigger the Kronos' own CX3 mode at a gig where you're not bringing the computer... is there a way to program in those two sets of data in (perhaps in lieu of a more common upper and lower manual distinction) so you could switch between the two just using a button instead of having to load up the configurator software every time you wanted to switch from one to the other?

There's only so many permutations of configurations that are practical with a device that has almost no user interface. And I'm almost out of code space. I'm thinking that what little code space is left is probably best spent supporting new instruments like the Jupiter 50, 80, and Integra 7, which I think all use different Sysex strings.

 

That said, you probably could make it work this way: if you taught VB3 to use one of the Nord drawbar mappings, you could switch between the Nord mapping and your stored User Defined setting (Kronos) just by using the DB-1's DIP switches.

[AnotherScott]

There's only so many permutations of configurations that are practical with a device that has almost no user interface. And I'm almost out of code space. I'm thinking that what little code space is left is probably best spent supporting new instruments like the Jupiter 50, 80, and Integra 7, which I think all use different Sysex strings.

 

That said, you probably could make it work this way: if you taught VB3 to use one of the Nord drawbar mappings, you could switch between the Nord mapping and your stored User Defined setting (Kronos) just by using the DB-1's DIP switches.

I don't think that the device having almost no interface would be an issue, the interface would be in your configurator computer program. But I like your dipswitch workaround regardless.

 

I was surprised to hear about the code space issue, because I had thought that all the CC/sysex codes were kept in the configurator software and sent to the unit as needed based on what instrument you were configuring it for, but I guess you're saying that, actually all the codes would be stored in the DB1 unit itself, and the configurator software is just changing which ones are active, and that's why you could run out of space?

 

Though even assuming that's the case, if the VB3 and Kronos Upper codes (to use my example) are both in the unit, might it just be a change to the configurator software that would let you assign one set to the "primary" spot and the other to the normally toggleable "lower manual" spot? I mean, assuming that all the codes are in there somewhere (or for that matter, even if they were downloadable via the configurator software, either way), you do support pairs of them for upper and lower manuals anyway, so it would be cool to be able to let the user create their own pair of them, i.e. pick any "upper" and any "lower" sets independently, to support whatever combination of gear one may own. So if someone owns a Kronos and a Jupiter, or whatever, and sometimes gigs with one and sometimes the other, the OB1 would always be ready to go for either one (albeit for just one manual of either one). But it sounds like, internally, maybe the unit has X sets of 18-drawbars (9 upper and 9 lower) rather than 2X sets of independently selectable 9 which would lend itself to that kind of flexibility...?

 

As for other instruments to support, within the limits of your space constraints, I think it would be nice to provide 2nd-manual support for any clonewheel that has only one set of drawbars: Numa Organ, Hammond SK1/SK2/XK1, Nord C4D, Roland VR-700/VK8/VR-09... maybe you'd get lucky and some of these overlap with each other or others that you have!

 

That brings me to another scenario that the other suggestion supports... someone might have a two-manual SK2 which they bring to organ-centric gigs, and then they may only care about using the OB1 for their lower manual control; but they may instead bring, say, a Kurzweil to their less organ-centric gigs, and then may prefer that the OB1 controlled the Kurz, so for them it would be useful for the OB1's two "manuals" to be a Kurz "upper" combined with a Hammond "lower" and they would use the device set for one manual or the other depending on which board they brought to that gig.

[OB Dave]

I don't think that the device having almost no interface would be an issue, the interface would be in your configurator computer program.

I guess I'm confused now, because what you had asked about was whether the DB-1 could be reconfigured without having to run the Configurator. It really can't but you can toggle between the user-defined mode and the Nord modes just with the DIP switches.

 

I was surprised to hear about the code space issue, because I had thought that all the CC/sysex codes were kept in the configurator software and sent to the unit as needed based on what instrument you were configuring it for, but I guess you're saying that, actually all the codes would be stored in the DB1 unit itself, and the configurator software is just changing which ones are active, and that's why you could run out of space?

 

 

Right, it's the second part. It's not the SYSEX codes themselves that are taking up space, it's all the code that manages what's supposed to happen with those SYSEX strings, what happens when you push the button, all the Nord modes, etc. As the number of features have grown so has that code base.

 

It might seem like it makes sense to give the DB-1 the ability to send any arbitrary Sysex string, but you'd also need a way to indicate which byte in the string is the drawbar number, which byte is the drawbar position, whether the drawbar numbering is 0-based (like the Korg) or 1-based (like the Roland), and oh yeah Roland for reasons that make no sense at all has a checksum but it only covers half the message and you need code to calculate that checksum.... and all of that information would need to somehow be encapsulated in my own OBD Sysex string because that's what the Configurator sends to the DB-1. It's not impossible, but it's not trivial either. I'd have to write a fair amount of code to make all this happen, and I doubt there's enough code space to accommodate it.

 

And it's not clear to me how much real interest there is in this market segment. For the Nord, yeah, I see it. I just don't know how many Jupiter 50 owners out there are really noticing the lack of drawbars on their keyboards.

 

So right now the DB-1 firmware contains the Kronos and Roland SYSEX strings. What the Configurator sends the DB-1 is a simple OBD Sysex that says "enable this mode" or "enable that mode." It's simple and robust.

 

Though even assuming that's the case, if the VB3 and Kronos Upper codes (to use my example) are both in the unit, might it just be a change to the configurator software that would let you assign one set to the "primary" spot and the other to the normally toggleable "lower manual" spot? I mean, assuming that all the codes are in there somewhere (or for that matter, even if they were downloadable via the configurator software, either way), you do support pairs of them for upper and lower manuals anyway, so it would be cool to be able to let the user create their own pair of them, i.e. pick any "upper" and any "lower" sets independently, to support whatever combination of gear one may own. So if someone owns a Kronos and a Jupiter, or whatever, and sometimes gigs with one and sometimes the other, the OB1 would always be ready to go for either one (albeit for just one manual of either one). But it sounds like, internally, maybe the unit has X sets of 18-drawbars (9 upper and 9 lower) rather than 2X sets of independently selectable 9 which would lend itself to that kind of flexibility...?

 

[...]

 

That brings me to another scenario that the other suggestion supports... someone might have a two-manual SK2 which they bring to organ-centric gigs, and then they may only care about using the OB1 for their lower manual control; but they may instead bring, say, a Kurzweil to their less organ-centric gigs, and then may prefer that the OB1 controlled the Kurz, so for them it would be useful for the OB1's two "manuals" to be a Kurz "upper" combined with a Hammond "lower" and they would use the device set for one manual or the other depending on which board they brought to that gig.

 

Yeah, I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying there'd be a ton of work involved, a lot of risk of breaking stuff that's currently robust, and I just don't know how much market demand there is for it. I had lots of requests for the Stage 2 Compact shelf, but once it was made nobody bought it. I guess if enough people show up pitchforks and torches demanding this capability I'd bite the bullet and code it up, but to be honest I haven't seen much demand for this. Maybe that will change.

 

[AnotherScott]

I don't think that the device having almost no interface would be an issue, the interface would be in your configurator computer program.

I guess I'm confused now, because what you had asked about was whether the DB-1 could be reconfigured without having to run the Configurator. It really can't but you can toggle between the user-defined mode and the Nord modes just with the DIP switches.

Sorry for the confusion. I did not mean to imply reconfiguring on the device itself (though you did point to way to kind of do that!). To be clear (I hope), I understand that the device can normally toggle between two sets with the top button, i.e. to switch between Upper Manual control and Lower Manual control of the same instrument. What I was suggesting is that the configurator be able to independently assign any of the DB1's 9-drawbar instrument settings to either of those two "locations" (i.e. upper or lower) instead of only being able to load them in the pre-defined pairs you create. So instead of a Kronos Upper, Kronos Lower configuration, a user might also have the option of something like a Kronos Upper, VB3 Upper combination (where VB3 Upper is invoked by the DB-1 button that would otherwise have invoked Kronos Lower). Or a Kurzweil combined with an SK1/SK2 lower, whatever. Just so it's "ready to go" for either of two boards at any time (as long as you only need one manual control from the DB-1).

 

It might seem like it makes sense to give the DB-1 the ability to send any arbitrary Sysex string

Nah. ;-) Really, I think almost nobody wants to get involved with sysex. Custom CCs is more than good enough for most people. And since you do support custom CCs, it sounds like some of what I was describing above possibly can be done, to the extent that the boards someone wants to alternately control, themselves, don't require sysex. So to get back to my Kronos + VB3 example, Kronos uses sysex, VB3 uses CC. Would it be possible to load in your Kronos settings, use them for "upper," and then manually edit the toggled alternate (normally "lower") set to have the CC settings for VB3? Then I would have a unit that I could move between Kronos and VB3 at will (albeit with one manual control for each). It sounds like this would work, unless the sysex configuration of the Kronos portion somehow interferes with a user's ability to enter CCs for the alternate bank of the loaded set, or something like that.

 

I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying there'd be a ton of work involved, a lot of risk of breaking stuff that's currently robust, and I just don't know how much market demand there is for it. I had lots of requests for the Stage 2 Compact shelf, but once it was made nobody bought it. I guess if enough people show up pitchforks and torches demanding this capability I'd bite the bullet and code it up, but to be honest I haven't seen much demand for this. Maybe that will change.

For some of the things where you want to gauge interest, maybe Kickstarter would be a way to go, to assure you'll have enough purchasers to make it worth your while.

[Kurt W]

The Kronos control surface is not optimal in live performances, it is easy to forget which mode it is in and pull down the level of a timbre instead of pulling out the 3rd harmonic drawbar....

 

Building a combination with a two manual CX3 organ is not straight forward and make it even more difficult to play the drawbars on the Kronos sliders. I am very happy that the DB1 has been upgraded for Kronos support, then I can pull the CX3 drawbars without considering which mode the Kronos control surface is in.

 

It is a pity that there is no "de facto" standard for drawbar midi implementation. However the DB1 is really flexible as it is with a user configurable mode for equipment with drawbars controlled by midi CC's. Since it in addition to this will cover most of the Nords, Roland Jupiters and different Korg Kronos modi it surely may help a lot of people.

 

Related to the discussion of the configurator and switching between different operations: There are 4 DIP-switches that should make it possible to select between 16 different options, could that be an alternative to power up the pc/Mac to select between some of the options available in the configurator?

 

 

[OB Dave]

Nah. ;-) Really, I think almost nobody wants to get involved with sysex. Custom CCs is more than good enough for most people. And since you do support custom CCs, it sounds like some of what I was describing above possibly can be done, to the extent that the boards someone wants to alternately control, themselves, don't require sysex.

Right, totally agree. Nobody should have to deal with Sysex. What I meant was, underneath the hood where do I hide all the black magic, in the DB-1 or in the Configurator? Mostly I guess I'm just muttering aloud now, shooting for "Hall Of Shame" status. But currently all the black magic lives in the DB-1. To the end user it should all be the same. No Sysex voodoo incantations to recite, just a radio button that says "Kronos" or whatever.

 

MIDI CCs are a different story, it makes sense to expose all that to the end user, and I help out by annotating the "well known" CCs in the drop down list (7 is volume, 11 is expression, 64 is sustain, etc).

 

There are 4 DIP-switches that should make it possible to select between 16 different options, could that be an alternative to power up the pc/Mac to select between some of the options available in the configurator?

One of those switches is a ground lift. The microprocessor can only "see" three of the switches, so that makes 8 permutations, seven of which are Nord modes with the 8th being the user-defined mode where all the Kronos and Roland stuff is going to live.

[AnotherScott]

Dave, if you have space and want to add them, here are the CC codes for some other possibilities:

 

Kurzweil SP4, drawbars 1 through 9 are CC # 14 through 22 (supports one manual only) -- useful for SP4 owners because there is no front panel control for these functions at all

 

Numa Organ, drawbars 1 through 9 are CC # 12 through 20 (MIDI channel 1 for upper, MIDI channel 2 for lower; MIDI channels are fixed) -- useful for Numa owners primarily to control the lower manual, so the board's one set of stock drawbars can be dedicated to upper manual, so its drawbars wouldn't get "out of sync" when switching between upper and lower control

[OB Dave]

Thanks! Adding Configurator presets for CCs is pretty easy, so I'll add these. Interesting that the SP4 mapping is different from KB3 and PC3x.

[OB Dave]

Quick update: I released new versions of the DB-1 firmware and the configurator tonight.

If you have a DB-1, come and get 'em. http://www.oceanbeachdigital.com/support.html

 

In addition to the Kronos, I added Sysex support for the Roland Jupiter 50 and Jupiter 80, and also support for Hammond-Suzuki's non-standard CC scheme.

[AnotherScott]

In looking at the docs, it seems like you can choose Sysex mode or CC mode. Getting back to what I typed a few messages up, is it possible to create a hybrid, where you could specify, for example a Kronos sysex set that pairs with a VB3 CC set, toggled with the top button? So that, without having to connect theDB-1 back up to a computer, you could easily go back and forth between using it to control one manual of VB3 or one manual of Kronos?

 

BTW, I think I have a problem with my unit, I'll PM you about that.

[AnotherScott]

Thanks! Adding Configurator presets for CCs is pretty easy, so I'll add these. Interesting that the SP4 mapping is different from KB3 and PC3x.

There is no such keyboard as KB3. KB3 is the name of the organ mode of the various Kurzweil units that have it. So a PC3X and an SP4 both have the KB3 engine in them. Yes, it is surprising that the CC mapping for KB3 would be different among different models that have KB3!

[Delaware Dave]

The SP4 does not have sliders to act as drawbars while the PC3/x does, so that in itself is a difference. If a function on the SP4 like V/C were controlled differently than how it is controlled via the PC3 I could see how the CC mappings could be different.

[keyboardologist]

Hello, is there a DB-1 firmware/configurator which will work with the sp4's KB3 mapping, or the DB-1 is working only with PC3's KB3 mapping?

Thank you!