Roland V-Combo VR-09

[Adan]

I changed my mind and bought one. I'm not sure if I've made stupid decision or not - time will tell - but I have 30 days to evaluate it.

 

Very good description of where this board stands in the grand scheme of things.

 

I've been dropping in to GC on my lunch and playing it, just to see if I can get more comfortable with it. I can live with how it sounds, but the glitches/bugs/design flaws are pretty annoying. I'm having a hard time coming to terms with those.

 

Even so, it might just be my next gigging board. Since I'm talking about gigs that I do strictly for the dough, this is a crass, money out/money in decision. Despite it's limitations, this thing can probably get the job done for me, and at least I can reach over, flip the stick, and hear a satisfying leslie ramp up. There's not another $1K piece of equipment that can do that.

[Craig MacDonald]

Voxpops, congrats on your purchase... I suspect that the more up play it the more you might like it, that's what I've found. That said, the bugs and quirks are quite annoying, especially things like the inability of the VR-09 to layer organ with another instrument without the other instrument going through the Leslie, and expression pedal limitations etc. Until these things are fixed its not going to work for me as an all in one for a gig but its a good backup board for me.

 

Regarding your review of the instrument it's difficult not to compare the VR-09 to instruments worth more than twice the price but that's really not a reasonable comparison. For the record I wouldn't suggest that the VR organ lacks presence until you've had a chance to tweak it (it does NOT lack presence).

 

I think you are bang on with our assessment that no other board does what this does at this weight, footprint, or price point, and the Casio isn't even worth talking about. Keep us posted on your progress with your VR-09.

[voxpops]

Thanks, Craig! I admire your tenacity!! You've been defending the VR against some pretty stiff opposition...

 

Actually, your posts have been very informative and, I suspect, useful to potential purchasers.

 

I shall doubtless be tweaking away over the next few days - and trying to put thoughts of the RED devil behind me. (I was actually surprised at how much better the NE4's emulation is compared to the NE3, which I didn't really like. If you're reading this, Kawai James, go out and buy one - you'll love it!)

 

Anyway, back to the VR...

[Craig MacDonald]

Yes I have taken a bit of flack here haven't I.. ;-) Don't worry I can take it!

 

Regarding the "presence" issue.. I found that compression makes a lot of difference.. Crank up the compression a bit and it starts to cut really nicely, and it screams in the top octave. I've been tweaking my organ tone and I'm very happy with it now..

 

Fast path to a good organ sound is start with "Bay area B3" registration turn the tone control all the way to the left, crank up the compression then set upper and lower gain and key click to taste (this will depend on your taste and what you're playing it through).

 

Let me know what you think of this organ tone!

[Craig MacDonald]

Voxpops, FYI, I also owned a Nord C2 with the new C2D OS installed (same as the Ne4) and it sounded great!

[voxpops]

Yes I have taken a bit of flack here haven't I.. ;-) Don't worry I can take it!

 

Regarding the "presence" issue.. I found that compression makes a lot of difference.. Crank up the compression a bit and it starts to cut really nicely, and it screams in the top octave. I've been tweaking my organ tone and I'm very happy with it now..

 

Fast path to a good organ sound is start with "Bay area B3" registration turn the tone control all the way to the left, crank up the compression then set upper and lower gain and key click to taste (this will depend on your taste and what you're playing it through).

 

Let me know what you think of this organ tone!

 

Thanks! I remembered an earlier post where you mentioned this, and started fiddling with those controls in the store. Yes, they do make a surprising difference to the way the organ responds. I'll see what I can come up with.

[iluvchiclets]

Hey again Craig MacDonald,

 

You mentioned the tweaks (just above this post) that gave you a better sounding organ...were those all the tweaks that you did? I know I read a while back about what changes you made to "Bay Area B3", but I dread the thought of going back to find that post!

 

Was it just those points? Compression, Tone, Upper and Lower gain?

 

I was just at my local L+M, and they have a second-hand VR-700 for $900 and a VK-8 for $699. I hope they get the VR in soon, I don't know if I can hold out any longer with these deals popping in...

[Craig MacDonald]

Yes, you can fine tune things of course, but select the registration, turn the tone control all the way to the left, then bump up the compression and then set the upper/lower gain the way you like it, and this will get you into the ballpark... from there you can fine tune it the way you like... You'll also have to adjust the overdrive to get the right amount of dirt, and you're there.

 

I think this VR-09 is a better sounding organ than the vk8m,I would wait and get the VR-09..you get so much more bang for your buck! The VR-700 is much bigger and heavier and it has some advantages like waterfall keys etc. but it doesn't have the VA synth..

 

Personally , I'd take the VR-09.

[iluvchiclets]

Thanks for the info,

 

I am going to memorize those tweaks when I actually get to play a VR-09. Mind you, I am pretty familiar with getting around on a synthesizer so I don't think it will be a problem.

 

I did own the VK-8M for about 2 or 3 years. That was the module I bought when I sold my A100. It did me very well for quite a while, and then I eventually sold it and bought a Yamaha MOX6. Again, a very nice keyboard, but I have never been happy with the organs in it. I have toyed with buying an after-market organ sound set, but I am waiting to see what the VR-09 sounds like. It is priced so reasonably, I think most people can understand the temptation to pick one up, even just for a tweak able organ.

[brenner13]

Delay time are also something very personal, does it mean those can't be changed for the FX knobs even with menu diving?

 

There's a "Tempo Delay" that locks to the tempo in the drum section (tempo is always flashing whether utilizing drums or not)...the tap tempo button is great and can be fine tuned by BPM with the dial. The delay knob controls number of repeats. MFX has a couple of tempo controlled effects, too: Tempo Step Phazer and Tempo Slicer, I haven't messed with the latter two yet.

 

I kind of poo-poo'd the looper before, but just tonight I used the audio recorder in song mode for a 3.5 minute idea using a split I made with a pad and a sax and utilizing one of the rock drum loops at half time...about 58 bpm. I'm very impressed how expressive the "N." instruments can be...and it's all captured within this one board. Simple, fast and easy can get even a time-squeezed, lazy procrastinator like me, semi-productive...what a great tool!

[The_Star_Guy]

New update to the Roland VR-09 website regarding a new "Made for Live Playing" featurette & tutorial is now available. http://www.rolandus.com/blog/2013/05/13/v-combo-vr-09-made-for-live-playing/

 

Craig, I really have to give you both kudos and thanks for your comprehensive and staunch presentation of your experiences thus far with your VR-09. You are being truly helpful and providing a true service to your fellow musicians. You have never lost sight of the fact that what is important is that, as artists and musicians, we each need to use the most effective tools that allow us to express our art.

 

In the long run, what matters is not how Product A (at a given price point) compares to product B (at triple the price point), but whether or not the VR-09 is an effective tool to use in our respective artistic processes with it's particular toolset of features and sounds. Too many of the people debating with you seem to have lost sight of the fact that we are artists and musicians FIRST, and if a product has a feature set that allows any of us to create or perform music in an inspired manner, then it is a useful & effective tool....period.

 

Again, Craig, you have my sincere respect...and my thanks!

[lockerbleiben]

is it true that when u split organ/piano on the vr 09 u cant change octave of the organ?

[Plassgard]

Yep that is true. You can change the Piano but not the Organ.

 

I´ve had mine for three of weeks now and I find it very usable. The Organ sound especially with Craigs all tips and tricks is real good. It´s inspiring to play and easy to carry. I have a big smile going to rehersals with just this under my arm instead of my Hammond XK 1 and Kurzweil PC3-61. My hopes was once that the PC3 would do it all but Organ in it is useless.

 

It´s a nice meat and potato board with a great organ sound, so so pianos (but they work) and great analog strings/pads and all the bread and butter sounds you need. For me the Leslie sim is ok. It´s not as good as the Ventilator but it works. When I use my XK 1 I have to use the Vent but with the VR-09 i´m ok with the sound. I just wish the overdrive was a bit smother.

[lockerbleiben]

but isnt the split org/piano function useless then? as regardless of if u want org on the upper or lower reg its never gna b what you want. so organ on upper reg means u only get the very high octaves nd on lower reg only the very low octaves. whats the point?

[Messiaen]

I'm thinking of buying a VR 09, not sure they are in the Uk yet

 

Why don't people post thier views and issues on the Roland Blog?

 

I've already put a comment on there, if enough people put issues to Roland, maybe they will come up with solutions to some of the issues.

 

For the money it looks like a great beginner board, great for a noob like me to get started on organs.... its not perfect, but nothing is, so I agree with the yea sayers on this, its probably got enough to inspire me to want to play and learn on and thats good enough. I do not want to spend 000's on some huge complex beast that will intimidate me with overkill (Kronos & other stuff) :idk

 

For putting comments on Roland Blog go to:

 

http://www.rolandus.com/blog/2013/05/13/v-combo-vr-09-made-for-live-playing/

[Craig MacDonald]

Thanks for the kind words guys.. I can be very stubborn at times and this has both served me well in my life, and caused me to lose a few friends.. ;-)

 

The KC forum is a great place to share information, but there are guys who have been on here for years, that are caught up in the search for the perfect Hammond Organ or the perfect acoustic piano and some of these guys simply cannot imagine playing on anything but the best equipment. For them, there's nothing wrong with that, but they often forget that there are other musicians at various stages of their musical journey that are coming on here for advice.. guys who are trying to buy their first instrument or guys that are on a budget.

 

When I have a $1000 budget, and I'm looking for a keyboard, I want help spending my money wisely.. I don't want someone telling me that the keyboard sucks compared to a $3000 model.. I can already figure that out for myself and in doing so, you're taking a bit of the excitement out or my first keyboard purchase!

 

Again thanks for the support, especially Voxpops and The Star Guy, I really appreciate it!

[Craig MacDonald]

but isnt the split org/piano function useless then? as regardless of if u want org on the upper or lower reg its never gna b what you want. so organ on upper reg means u only get the very high octaves nd on lower reg only the very low octaves. whats the point?

 

No it's not really useless.. you can set the split point anywhere you want, and just like the real Hammond, changing the drawbar settings can easily change octaves (or approximate that) by adjusting the drawbars on the upper and lower manuals.

 

If you push in the bottom two drawbars (16'/5 1/3') you will see that the tone raises an octave if you push in the 3rd drawbar (8') it will move up another octave. So without actually having an octave up/down control parameter, you really can move the octave up/down using the drawbars themselves.

 

The only thing you can't do is play the lowest octaves/voices of the hammond organ on the right hand side of the the split. I don't see this as a big deal, I can't ever imagine wanting bass parts on my right hand.

 

Hope this helps!

[Craig MacDonald]

Why don't people post thier views and issues on the Roland Blog?

 

I've already put a comment on there, if enough people put issues to Roland, maybe they will come up with solutions to some of the issues.

 

 

For putting comments on Roland Blog go to:

 

http://www.rolandus.com/blog/2013/05/13/v-combo-vr-09-made-for-live-playing/

 

I put a comment there containing all of the bug/design problems that I have noted so far, however I didn't see your comment (mine was the only comment). Perhaps I put my comment in the wrong place?

[lockerbleiben]

cool, when i get my hands on 1 i will try this. im using mainly piano right and organ left. both playing chords with left and right hand. currently im using vr 760 which i love bt its to heavy. i can playing or range wise do everything with vr09. i just need to figure out the change octave thing for the organ in split modus. maybe you could try something for me when you have the time? when u use the default split point c can u play a Bb chord with both hands? meaning left F Bb D and right F Bb? or is that reg in split mode only for bass? or will i have to use the draw bar tricks? cheers

[rien]

1. Reading the manual, it seems that if you hook up a MIDI controller keyboard to the VR-09's MIDI in, then the entire 61 keys of the VR-09 play the upper split sound and the entire MIDI controller keys the lower sound. Does this mean that if I connect an 88 key controller, set up an upper organ / lower piano split, and play, say, a G4 on my controller that it will trigger the piano sound but not the organ, and, say, a C2 on the VR-09 will trigger organ but not piano? If so, excellent for my needs.

 

indeed, the VR-09 manual seems to imply that behavior, and it is indeed considered a split. note that you have to set the midi-in to "keyboard" mode. from reading the manual, i don't understand the difference between "keyboard" mode and "mode 2".

 

i hope it works this way, since this is what i intend to do when i finally receive my VR-09, which has already been delayed twice...

[Craig MacDonald]

Assuming I understand what you're asking (can you play a Bb chord on either side of the split point) the answer is yes but it sounds like crap unless you push in the bottom 3 drawbars and pull out the high fundamental drawbars (4', 2', 1').

 

This can still give you nice rich sounding chords on the left hand (although using anything but the fundamental drawbars sounds pretty weird).

 

So the answer is yes you can play chords on both sides but you do have to adjust the drawbars in, but this is easy and you just create a registration that has the drawbars preset and you're ready to go.. I assume that you want to hold chord pads while you're playing piano on the upper split.. this is very doable!

 

 

[Craig MacDonald]

1. Reading the manual, it seems that if you hook up a MIDI controller keyboard to the VR-09's MIDI in, then the entire 61 keys of the VR-09 play the upper split sound and the entire MIDI controller keys the lower sound. Does this mean that if I connect an 88 key controller, set up an upper organ / lower piano split, and play, say, a G4 on my controller that it will trigger the piano sound but not the organ, and, say, a C2 on the VR-09 will trigger organ but not piano? If so, excellent for my needs.

 

indeed, the VR-09 manual seems to imply that behavior, and it is indeed considered a split. note that you have to set the midi-in to "keyboard" mode. from reading the manual, i don't understand the difference between "keyboard" mode and "mode 2".

 

i hope it works this way, since this is what i intend to do when i finally receive my VR-09, which has already been delayed twice...

 

My understanding is that in Midi mode 1 - whatever midi in data the VR-09 gets is sent to the SMF General Midi player (so the internal GM Synth). In Midi Mode 2 midi channels 1 -4 go to the VR-09 keyboard sound generator and the remaining channels go to the internal GM Synth. In Midi Mode 3 the midi in data is assumed to be from a second keyboard and it is automatically assigned to the lower part of a split.

 

I am going to try midi mode 3 later today to see if there is a difference how a second keyboard reacts to splits vs layers.

[lockerbleiben]

 

this is what i want to do. Sometimes i play organ chords with 2 handd on lower reg. Bt i can change the octaves on the vr760. If i used the default settings i wouldnt be able to play chords down there as itd b to low. Bt it sounds like org split on vr09 means play the bass wit ur left hand. Bt i need it to play 2hand chords. Now u say i could play with the drawbars nd minipulate bt that would or could mean i can only use certain settings down their as if i do what u suggested i might not like the sound although the octave range is right????

[LX88]

Craig

 

You say the VR09 is better than the VK8m.

 

Once again I ask.... who has ever heard the VK8m with the leslie sim bypass?

 

At least the VK8m does not have vibrato in the percussion.

 

Once again I contend that playing organ without a leslie sim could become important to some people eventually. Over a period of time I came to realize that using chorus vibrato with no sim was my best option if I had to play in mono.

 

It's the pure Hammond sound, used on many ( primarily jazz) recordings.

 

The VK8m does not come stock with the leslie sim bypass. I am not sure why Roland did this, but there is a treasure to unlock in there if you take the trouble to do it.

[Craig MacDonald]

 

this is what i want to do. Sometimes i play organ chords with 2 handd on lower reg. Bt i can change the octaves on the vr760. If i used the default settings i wouldnt be able to play chords down there as itd b to low. Bt it sounds like org split on vr09 means play the bass wit ur left hand. Bt i need it to play 2hand chords. Now u say i could play with the drawbars nd minipulate bt that would or could mean i can only use certain settings down their as if i do what u suggested i might not like the sound although the octave range is right????

 

Listened to the band.. Nice.. Sounds great.. I think that between the split point and the drawbars you can probably accomplish what you want to do.. again you'll have to push in the bottom 3 drawbars and perhaps raise the split point a couple of notes to play full two handed Bb chords. YES using this method to shift octaves, the drawbars that are left sound a bit odd, so you'll probably only want to use fundamentals (white drawbars).. However, it still has that nice warm Hammond sound.. Try the drawbar setting on your VR760 and you'll see what I mean. Personally I think it's quite workable.

 

 

[Craig MacDonald]

Craig

 

You say the VR09 is better than the VK8m.

 

Once again I ask.... who has ever heard the VK8m with the leslie sim bypass?

 

At least the VK8m does not have vibrato in the percussion.

 

Once again I contend that playing organ without a leslie sim could become important to some people eventually. Over a period of time I came to realize that using chorus vibrato with no sim was my best option if I had to play in mono.

 

It's the pure Hammond sound, used on many ( primarily jazz) recordings.

 

The VK8m does not come stock with the leslie sim bypass. I am not sure why Roland did this, but there is a treasure to unlock in there if you take the trouble to do it.

LX88 I didn't say that the VR-09 is better, I think I said I would take the VR-09 over the VK8m.. That's a matter of personal taste/choice. That said, I do not like the VK8m and I have tried it with the sim bypassed/ I worked in a music store for 2 years, with SVEN, and we had one and we tried a lot of different things to get it sounding good, including putting it through a Ventilator which helped immensely. I'm just not a fan of the VK8 engine.

 

For the record, I heard a rumour that the new VR supernatural engine in the VR-09 is based on the the VK7 engine rather than the VK8 engine because the VK7 had more grit/balls. You are much more of an expert on the VK engine so I have no idea if this is true or not, maybe you can let us know what you think.

 

All that said, I prefer the sound of the VR-09 organ to the VK8m that I've tried in the past.. but it's primarily because of the leslie sim.

[lockerbleiben]

cool, i will try this as soon as it lands in the shops. cheers

[LX88]

I think this VR-09 is a better sounding organ than the vk8m,I would wait and get the VR-09..you get so much more bang for your buck! The VR-700 is much bigger and heavier and it has some advantages like waterfall keys etc. but it doesn't have the VA synth..

 

Personally , I'd take the VR-09.

[LX88]

Craig

 

Please read the above quote

[LX88]

 

I didn't say that the VR-09 is better, I think I said I would take the VR-09 over the VK8m.. primarily because of the leslie sim.

 

Then this....