Roland V-Combo VR-09

[HammondDave]

Don't worry I think the same thing happened to me.. I think there is a moderator who has to approve your first post to make sure it's not spam...

 

Thanks Craig, I saw your posts there. I am buzzed about the sound expansions( and hopefully the OS upgrade).

 

I am in a quandary now trying to decide between the VR09 with a years financing(sweetwater) or an SK1 for 1699 new(amazon) with 12 months..

 

No matter what you decide, Sweetwater will match the price (or come very close) and upgrade your warranty to Two years!

[Craig MacDonald]

Go to a GC store or something that has plenty of equipment and test out SK-1 versus VR-09. The local GC store actually had the VR-09 below the SK-1.

 

I don't want to repeat my findings comparing those two.

 

Wise decision....

Obviously a wise thing to do, but some people don't have the luxury of a GC being within driving distance. Some may have to make a decision based on what they see and hear In Forums like this and YouTube, and what they read etc..

 

The bottom line is that unless he/she tries one and is magically drawn to one or the other keyboard, it will probably it will probably boil down to the fundamental decision I described in my previous post... Put simply, slightly better organ, waterfall keyboard, more organ tweakability in the SK1 vs all the added features of the VR-09

[Ekewaka]

There's always the option of returning the unit, as well. But most companies charge for the return shipping fees. Plus could get annoyed if the unit has blemishes. Or have a 15% restocking fee. In most cases it's better to take a trip to the nearest bigger city and do an evaluation. I used to do that long time ago, driving 300 miles to check out a MiniMoog. Those were the days.

 

I would also like to say that most of by silliest purchase decisions have been based on cost evaluation and thinking that I save money by getting a cheaper system. While what happens in real life in most cases is that the equipment will be used for 10+ years or more. Plus it's not that easy to resell equipment today. It's also nice to bond with a quality instrument for a very long time.

[HAMEGZ]

thanks for all the input .I appreciate the suggestions and personal comments

 

The New Orleans GC(little over an hours drive) shows an SK1 on the floor none in Baton Rouge (30 minutes)

 

no VR 09 in either store. I just see if I want to drive to Shreveport (5 hours) there is one .

 

AFA my "Hammond" sound I have a Stage 2 73 and of course its EPs

My Mox for everything else.

 

I was looking for a board to bring when I only want one lightweight, compact unit, that would do my splits and layers. Thus the SK1/VR 09 tossup.

 

I have read both threads over and over, digested every ones pros and cons , but the bottom line is no substitute for what my fingers feel and my ears hear.

 

I will wait till I could hopefully A/B them side by side.

[HammondDave]

The VR-09 has a lot of advantages over the SK1.. PERHAPS THE MOST SIGNIFICANT ADVANTAGE that the VR-09 has is the ability to layer two NON-ORGAN Sounds!! The Sk1 cannot do this.. So even if the SK1 had nice strings, you couldn't layer them with an Electric Piano. One part a a layer MUST be organ on the SK1, that is not the case with the VR-09.. now that said, the VR-09 has a few quirks when it comes to layering.. and some annoying things like the expression pedal thing.. but there are workarounds for that..

 

In the spirit of full disclosure, there is one thing that Craig left out. Please correct me if I am wrong Craig, but it is my understanding that although you can have two sounds layered at the same time, you must run both sounds through the same effect. Meaning that if you wanted to split your keyboard to play organ and piano, and if you want to use the Leslie rotary effect for your organ, you also have that Leslie effect on your piano.. To me this is a crippling defect in the design of a performance instrument. (See Craig's own post from the Roland Blog below)

 

Oh... And the little fact the the organ's percussion is affected by the chorus vibrato... Definitely not authentic.

 

But Craig is correct about the overall capabilities of the VR over the SK... It's just not as authentic or useful as it may appear on the surface... Maybe Roland will come out with an OS update to correct these defects that make it a non starter for me... But I would wait and see for yourself if you are serious about purchasing this instrument.

 

From Craig's post on the Roland Blog:

 

"I really enjoy my VR-09 there is a lot of power jammed into this inexpensive keyboard, however there are a number of bugs/design issues that are inhibiting my use of the keyboard for anything other thanas a backup keyboard.

 

1. I need to be able to control expression independently for layered/split parts

2. when I layer an organ with any other instrument the other instrument goes through the leslie speaker (bad thing)

3. When I have sustained notes to fade out a sound, and I change patches, the sustained notes retrigger

4. The percussion circuit goes through the Chorus/Vibrato circuit which makes it sound very weird (this is NOT how a hammond works) the percussion should be clean an unaffected by chorus/vibrato

 

Fix these things and I will be able to gig with this keyboard, if not its not going to work for me except as a backup drawbar organ."

 

And here is Roland's answer to Craig

 

"OV Valle [Roland US]

MAY 23, 2013 @ 09:58:18

 

These are basically all true:

- You can not assign the expression pedal to only one part (it works on all parts globally).

- All sounds go through the effects.

- If you are holding a chord and select a new sound, it does re-trigger the chord.

- It does sound like the percussion is added before the chorus circuit."

 

 

 

[voxpops]

This is what OV Valle wrote in response to my own complaint about retriggering et al:

"Very valid point, weve addressed these issues with our product development team. I dont have any more news besides that, but I will report as soon as we learn something new. "

[Craig MacDonald]

Dave, to be clear, the issue with layered sounds going through the leslie is ONLY when a sound is layered with an organ sound and I'm not really sure how many people actually do this (or how many have even noticed this)... when the sounds are SPLIT there is no such issue.. and when using a second keyboard the sounds are always set up as a SPLIT so if you are running organ on the VR-09 and using an 88note weighted action keyboard midi'd to the VR-09 to play acoustic piano as a split, the piano sound does not go through the leslie, or if you set up a split with clavinet on the bottom and organ on the top the clavinet does not go through the leslie. Again, if a sound is layered with an organ it will go through the leslie, if it is split with an organ it does not.. This is an important distinction because not a lot of people would actually layer an organ with other sounds.. maybe strings or brass, but even then I would create a would tend to create a split.

 

Now that said, there is another problem with splits and that is that the effects section only works on the upper part of the split so if you select a phased EP for the lower split/keyboard, you will lose the phase effect.

 

Regarding the percussion/vibrato/chorus issue, none of the VR-09 owners including myself even noticed it.. THIS is a very small problem, that does affect the authenticity of the organ sound, but it is for most players a problem that will go unnoticed!

 

I've been very clear that these issues are annoying.. I still really like my VR-09, but the real serious design/bug issues from my perspective are...

 

1. Expression Pedal

2. Layering with Organ going through leslie effect (I do layer AP and Organ)

 

these are the biggies for me.. However, I do WANT them to fix the C/V/percussion issue, and the retriggering of notes.. both of those things are just plain wrong, and should be corrected.. but they're not big issues for me personally.

 

I hope that helps to clarify.. I've been very up front with all of the issues that I've encountered... so I don't want it to appear that I'm glossing over anything.. I still feel that it boils down to the fundamental question that I've set out previously... And of course personal taste if/when an opportunity to try both keyboards side by side presents itself.

[Ekewaka]

Hmm, the more I read customer reports, the more I think that VR-09 was a good idea that was not properly executed on the design/engineering side.

 

If they made those changes plus added in a deep keyboard, let's say VR-10, I would certainly revisit the unit and there's a good chance I would purchase it this time.

[Craig MacDonald]

So the announcement that was coming about sound libraries for the VR-09 is this announcement here:

 

http://www.rolandus.com/blog/2013/05/30/axial-synth-libraries/

 

However at this time the VR-09 is NOT on the list of products that the Axial librarires are targeted at, but OV from Roland has said that this will be updated to include sounds/eligibilitiy for the VR-09.

[HammondDave]

Thanks for clarifying this, Craig.... Strange about the layering issue... You think if they could split the sounds with separate effects they could do the same with layering,,,

[Plassgard]

Yep Craig it seams like this is what the fuzz was about with updates to the sounds. I found the page earlier today and posted about it but I wasn´t sure it was about the VR-09. Well I wouldn´t mind the Synth Legends...

[Craig MacDonald]

Thanks for clarifying this, Craig.... Strange about the layering issue... You think if they could split the sounds with separate effects they could do the same with layering,,,

 

YES it really is odd.. but there are a couple of odd things about this machine..! No doubt!! I still think it's one OS update away from awsome.. (keyboard aside).. The important thing here is to decide whether or not you'll use this VR-09 in true layer mode or not.. There was a big debate about this on another thread somewhere.. and a lot of folks were saying they would NEVER layer acoustic piano and organ. If you're an either/or type of player , either organ or piano, or you only use splits you'll never have a problem with this issue.

 

I do actually use layered organ and acoustic piano.. so for me it's an issue.. how I use it is to have an nice bright rock acoustic piano, and an 008846000 registration that I bring in using the expression pedal on choruses, and/or later verses in the song.. I have to use that drawbar registration so the bass isn't overwhelming. I find this very effective.. But I suspect that very few people do this.. so I haven't made a particularly big deal out of it.

[Craig MacDonald]

Yep Craig it seams like this is what the fuzz was about with updates to the sounds. I found the page earlier today and posted about it but I wasn´t sure it was about the VR-09. Well I wouldn´t mind the Synth Legends...

Yes I agree, they would be great to have.. but something tells me that we need an OS update OR the iPad editor needs to be updated before the sounds can be made available to the VR-09.. right now the VR-09 has no capacity to load in an individual sound!! You can only save/load entire registrations sets into it (no individual sounds or registrations) and the iPad editor has no librarian capabilities right now.. So something has to be updated to make it work.. since it's VA synth based sounds, I suspect that the iPad editor will be updated to include and allow for a library of sounds. This would be the easiest way to get sounds like this classic roland synth set into the VR-09.

[Messiaen]

Yep Craig it seams like this is what the fuzz was about with updates to the sounds. I found the page earlier today and posted about it but I wasn´t sure it was about the VR-09. Well I wouldn´t mind the Synth Legends...

Yes I agree, they would be great to have.. but something tells me that we need an OS update OR the iPad editor needs to be updated before the sounds can be made available to the VR-09.. right now the VR-09 has no capacity to load in an individual sound!! You can only save/load entire registrations sets into it (no individual sounds or registrations) and the iPad editor has no librarian capabilities right now.. So something has to be updated to make it work.. since it's VA synth based sounds, I suspect that the iPad editor will be updated to include and allow for a library of sounds. This would be the easiest way to get sounds like this classic roland synth set into the VR-09.

 

Craig, rather then going through the whole blog, I just wanted to ask you, is the expression pedal issue that fact that when using a volume pedal there is not a smooth volume curve? I used 2 pedals in the store and neither really seem to work properly, the volume just seemed to jump, it was not a smooth curve.

 

Also , ans I may being dumb here you cannot lower or raise the octave range on the organ section. Obviously you can use the drawbars, but it still doesn't seem to go low enough. I mean what happens when you plugged in Bass Pedals, surely these must be at a very low octave, so how does this work exactly?

 

I didn't buy it in the end, I wanted to wait and see what new sounds were available and its still a bit vauge.

 

I did enjoy playing it, In the sore it was put through a pa, so I could really belt it out. Sound alone its really very good, some of the strings can get a very good mellotron once you've tinkered with effects etc. Layers seem to work well and adds to options.

 

I dhave a lot of fun playing just not sure I really really want it, but theres not many options at this price, thats the problem!!

[Craig MacDonald]

Yep Craig it seams like this is what the fuzz was about with updates to the sounds. I found the page earlier today and posted about it but I wasn´t sure it was about the VR-09. Well I wouldn´t mind the Synth Legends...

Yes I agree, they would be great to have.. but something tells me that we need an OS update OR the iPad editor needs to be updated before the sounds can be made available to the VR-09.. right now the VR-09 has no capacity to load in an individual sound!! You can only save/load entire registrations sets into it (no individual sounds or registrations) and the iPad editor has no librarian capabilities right now.. So something has to be updated to make it work.. since it's VA synth based sounds, I suspect that the iPad editor will be updated to include and allow for a library of sounds. This would be the easiest way to get sounds like this classic roland synth set into the VR-09.

 

Craig, rather then going through the whole blog, I just wanted to ask you, is the expression pedal issue that fact that when using a volume pedal there is not a smooth volume curve? I used 2 pedals in the store and neither really seem to work properly, the volume just seemed to jump, it was not a smooth curve.

 

Also , ans I may being dumb here you cannot lower or raise the octave range on the organ section. Obviously you can use the drawbars, but it still doesn't seem to go low enough. I mean what happens when you plugged in Bass Pedals, surely these must be at a very low octave, so how does this work exactly?

 

I didn't buy it in the end, I wanted to wait and see what new sounds were available and its still a bit vauge.

 

I did enjoy playing it, In the sore it was put through a pa, so I could really belt it out. Sound alone its really very good, some of the strings can get a very good mellotron once you've tinkered with effects etc. Layers seem to work well and adds to options.

 

I dhave a lot of fun playing just not sure I really really want it, but theres not many options at this price, thats the problem!!

 

No problem it's a loooonnnnggggg thread.. The expression pedal issue is the fact that in split mode the expression pedal controls both parts upper and lower and it cannot be set to just control only one.. So if you have an AP and an organ split when you change the expression pedal in affects both parts, which is not how I want it (although some might like it this way). I want the acoustic piano to remain a the same volume while I weave the organ in and out using the expression pedal!

 

Yes you are correct, you can't change the octave of the organ in a split/layer but you can manipulate the Drawbars to get a similar effect. Bass pedals just plug in via midi and they will work if you set them to the right midi channel and octave (yes they are set to respond to a lower octave), and your pedals need to be set to correspond to that octave.

 

 

 

[HAMEGZ]

Ok so the Axial site will contain Patch Programming using the existing waveform sets from what I understand, yes?

 

I am not belittling this venture by any means, it sounds like a great resource.

That might answer the speculation if additional or new waveforms would be unlocked or used.

[Craig MacDonald]

Ok so the Axial site will contain Patch Programming using the existing waveform sets from what I understand, yes?

 

I am not belittling this venture by any means, it sounds like a great resource.

That might answer the speculation if additional or new waveforms would be unlocked or used.

. Yes I believe that this will use the existing waves, no one said nothing about any new waves? There are already over 360 PCM waves on top of the traditional synth waves like square, sine, triangle etc...

[HAMEGZ]

Ok so the Axial site will contain Patch Programming using the existing waveform sets from what I understand, yes?

 

I am not belittling this venture by any means, it sounds like a great resource.

That might answer the speculation if additional or new waveforms would be unlocked or used.

. Yes I believe that this will use the existing waves, no one said nothing about any new waves? There are already over 360 PCM waves on top of the traditional synth waves like square, sine, triangle etc...

 

I think the term Sound Expansion was used somewhere.

What is "is", ,, that term could have been taken a few ways.

 

I feel the machine has plenty waveforms as you pointed out, enough bread and butter for lots of toast and jam.Enough for my foreseeable needs anyway.

[Craig MacDonald]

I don't think there is a big mystery here. It's likely a bunch of sounds created using this Jupiter style virtual analog synth engine that is in all of these synths. The classic synth library is already available for the Jupiter synth, and now they are creating this Axial thing as an umbrella under which these library of sounds will continue to grow.. However i think it will likely be different programs that use all of the same PCM waves..

[WOK]

Just have read here:

http://www.rolandus.com/blog/2013/05/13/v-combo-vr-09-made-for-live-playing

and had some serious head shaking, for example:

"You can not change the octave setting of the organ when splitting the keyboard"

"when I layer an organ with any other instrument the other instrument goes through the leslie speaker" > "All sounds go through the effects"

"We have not heard of any updates coming for the VR-09"

 

The engineers at Roland must have been drunk when designing this.

When they made the VR-700 it was the right direction, but the "two sounds only at a time" and the crappy display might have kept away many people. Now they even put a 61 keys non-waterfall keybed inside and even the simplest split/layer function are crap.

 

"Hey, but in rans on batteries and has our cool outstanding D-BEAM controller" - good grief.....

 

[LX88]

Hey ... don't say any more "negative crap" about this board...OK?

 

The brain police don't like it.

[Josh Paxton]

I was looking for a board to bring when I only want one lightweight, compact unit, that would do my splits and layers. Thus the SK1/VR 09 tossup.

 

Just saw your quandary. While Craig's impressively thorough response nailed the technical details, there are some subjective points that I have a slightly different take on...

 

Personally I find the SK significantly better than the VR for organ, AP, EP and Clav. I've used the SK for "serious" organ gigs and been very happy with it. I've also used it for piano-only gigs -- not solo piano, of course, but playing with a trad jazz band on a super-tiny stage where I needed to take up as little space as I possibly could. I dug it and so did the band. I would not use the VR in either of those situations.

 

I also find the SK's Rhodes vastly superior to the VR's -- more authentic, more playable, plus it has a couple models to choose from. Wurli is a closer call; the VR does a mediocre job of sounding like a Wurli, while the SK does a good job of sounding like three different ones lumped together into one patch. But between the two I'd still give the nod to the SK. And the Clav isn't even close.

 

The tradeoff, of course, is that if you need anything other than those sounds, the SK probably isn't gonna cut it.

 

If you feel like driving across the lake some night to hear the VR in action, you can find me playing it most Wednesday and Sunday nights on Bourbon Street. PM me for details.

[Craig MacDonald]

I was looking for a board to bring when I only want one lightweight, compact unit, that would do my splits and layers. Thus the SK1/VR 09 tossup.

 

Just saw your quandary. While Craig's impressively thorough response nailed the technical details, there are some subjective points that I have a slightly different take on...

 

Personally I find the SK significantly better than the VR for organ, AP, EP and Clav. I've used the SK for "serious" organ gigs and been very happy with it. I've also used it for piano-only gigs -- not solo piano, of course, but playing with a trad jazz band on a super-tiny stage where I needed to take up as little space as I possibly could. I dug it and so did the band. I would not use the VR in either of those situations.

 

Good feedback FKS, different opinions are absolutely welcome here! Especially those those that are well thought out, like yours. What we are all getting sick of, is the same crap over and over again, and those "oh my God" posts that make a mountain out of a mole hill!

 

All very valid points.. I don't agree with you on the acoustic piano.. I think the VR-09 AC is better (although thats based on the one that i owned and it was at OS level 3 when I returned it I think) and I think that you can do more with the Eps and class on the VR-09 with the effects so I would take the VR-09 ahead on those.. But that's just my thoughts. Thanks for the well thought out post!

[rien]

here is my impressions after a long evening playing with this keyboard:

 

- keybed is fine for me, better than i expected given all was said in this thread... however, i seem to have a problem with the velocity curve. i will try adjusting the sensitivity, and will take some time playing it in order to adapt myself. anyway, i am not a real keyboard player so i may not qualify for judging this aspect. also, i have played many cheap and crappy keyboards, and never played a really good keyboard, so my judgement is completely subjective.

 

- knobs and slider do not look sturdy. i have the feeling that they will likely be the first part failing on this board. the screen is clear, well lit and readable, although it becomes a mess while using the wheel to go through the instrument list: the redraw is to slow so you can't read and scroll at the same time.

 

- the organ sound is gorgeous ! i was dreaming of this sound for so long ! i love this sound ! i was surprised by the quick firing of the keyboard: i think it is the first time in my life that i play a quick firing keyboard, and i really like it.

 

- the synth sounds are really nice, good sounding, full, round. i love them too ! the "others" sound are nice too and cover a lot of different stuffs. so many sounds that i could not play them all...

 

- the acoustic pianos are bad, really bad. i was not able to play properly with any acoustic piano sound. they sound flat and synthetic, and holding a chord for more than a second hurts. electric pianos are a bit better, but they do not seem to have enough velocity layers. i will try playing all the pianos through my weighted keyboard, which i am more used to.

 

- i don't care about the drums sound, i own a TD-9. they sound quite the same (no need to say that i think roland is ahead of anything else in this matter), of course without the expressiveness of a good pair of drumsticks... also, the pre-programmed rhythm patterns are very, very limited. better use the looper to build pattern. (disclaimer: i am a drummer).

 

- making a layer is sooo easy, i inadvertently made layers by pressing some buttons, and had a hard time cancelling them. i should re-read the manual to avoid this problem in the future. splits are very easy too.

 

- any editing is generally one button press away, no deep menu diving, and that's really interesting. i found the interface very intuitive.

 

- i tried the yamaha FC-7 expression pedal (through the required 1/4" TRS->RTS adapter, homemade). the pedal works, but the velocity curve is not linear and i could not find a setting which satisfies me. anyone tried a roland expression pedal ? i would like to know if roland's pedal have the same curve. also, when changing registration, the velocity is reset to the velocity stored in the registration, forgetting the settings of the expression pedal, which makes some big velocity jumps if you are not careful when changing registration.

 

- the yamaha FC-5 damper pedal worked as-is. you may have to plug it before powering the vr-09 in order for it to work as intended. the function assigned to the damper is global and that bugged me when testing pianos after testing organ: i assigned the damper to control the rotary speed, when i switched to piano, the damper was still switching the rotary speed... i stumbled on this multiple times through the evening. i expect this to sort out once i get used to the board and stop switching sound every minute or so (plus i should mainly be playing the pianos through my other keyboard, which has its own damper pedal).

 

- i did not find a good use for the d-beam. also i accidentally triggered it many time while adjusting the overdrive. maybe a good use is as a controller for n.control-enabled instruments, or as a wheel brake for the organ.

 

- i am not an effect guy, so most of the time i shut the effects off. overdrive seemed too much, as was already stated in this thread, however i had no problem limiting my use of the overdrive to the first quarter of its range.

 

- contrary to what is said in the namm video, not every parameters are editable from the buttons and menus. editing a synth patch REQUIRES the use of the ipad application. i was well aware of this limitation before ordering the vr-09, after reading the manual. the editor is only available for ipad, roland did not realize that some people may not have an ipad or will never have one (as i said, i will tackle this problem personally as soon as i can... but that "soon" may be a bit late)

 

i don't think i covered every feature of the keyboard. to be honest, i fell asleep in front of it... bottom line is: i am so happy to have this board at home ! despite all the limitations listed, that's a huge improvement from the keyboard i already own. those limitations do not pose me any problem, and i will get used to them pretty quickly. i love that keyboard, and i will do my best to learn how make the best out of it !

[Craig MacDonald]

Nice review! Thanks for taking he time!! Another well thought out post!

 

Thanks!

[Kevmo]

Yes but how can the A piano be "really bad" for one and "georgious" for another

 

I just took delivery from GC can't wait to try it at tonites rehersal

[Ken Beaumont]

Easy, Kurzweil "Triple-Strike" anyone? To me they sound much better played with a weighted action. Its the exact same piano as in my Sonic Cell and my BK7-M modules. You either like them or not. The "Supernatural" pianos aren't in this. When I midi it to my SV1, the piano from the VR-09 sounds better solo. In the mix I prefer the ones it has, it cuts through the guitar and bass better. And of course, I prefer the electric pianos in the SV1. That's the main reason I bought it, that and 73 keys.

[HammondDave]

Yes but how can the A piano be "really bad" for one and "georgious" for another

 

Of course it can be...

 

Anyone who buys anything strictly based on others' opinions of sound and playability is mad...

 

Look... Even I was surprised when Craig liked his "Mellotron" sound that he created... There is no accounting for taste...

[Craig MacDonald]

Yes but how can the A piano be "really bad" for one and "georgious" for another

 

Of course it can be...

 

Anyone who buys anything strictly based on others' opinions of sound and playability is mad...

 

Look... Even I was surprised when Craig liked his "Mellotron" sound that he created... There is no accounting for taste...

I don't know that I used the word liked exactly, and its so far back that I'm not going to go look... My point was that you could create a passable/useable mellotron sound in the VR-09 using a string sample and effects... I think that statement is true the sound I created had a rough "tape" character to it. I like the organ sound in the VR-09, and the mellotron string program I created is useable...

[High Diving Act]

Yes but how can the A piano be "really bad" for one and "georgious" for another

 

Of course it can be...

 

Anyone who buys anything strictly based on others' opinions of sound and playability is mad...

 

Look... Even I was surprised when Craig liked his "Mellotron" sound that he created... There is no accounting for taste...

I think piano sounds may be the most subjective of all tones due to personal taste and environment. I bought my vr 2 days ago and when I was trialing it.. I compared the krome piano to the vr09. The krome is outfitted with a Kronos derived unlooped AP. Head to Head I'm not overly fond of either and depending on keyed register.. they flip flop on which I preferred. I could see both sitting very well in a live mix though as they are both Brite.