Advice on Keyboard Choice

[DrHorace]

Hello everyone,

 

This is my first post here, having looked around for a forum which seems to be both active and knowledgable about the current state of affairs with keyboard technology.

 

First a little background: I've been playing piano/keyboards for my whole life (now in my early 20s) in and out of bands in various genres. I've played jazz, alt rock and a little prog though these days I focus mainly on playing at church with a small worship team in which the keyboard does a lot more work than just lay out some atmospheric pads. I'm also beginning to get back into playing prog with a fellow guitarist.

 

I've got a Yamaha S90 from back in 2003 which has been my main (and only board) to date. I've had chances to play on a couple of Roland boards at various churches and the occasional test drive of other Yamaha boards. I've no experience playing on Korg or Kurz and only lusted after the oh-so-expensive Nords! (Which isn't to say that I'd rule them out - don't knock what you haven't tried!)

 

To the point then: I'm in the market for a new board with rather specific parameters for my choices. The mainstay of my playing will be practicing and playing in a worship band in which I need to be able to lay down pianos, EP, organs, pads and perhaps the occasional high-end glock line. Further, I'd love the capability to experiment with sounds for the prog arena, channeling influences like Yes, ELP, Gentle Giant and more recently Dream Theatre, Opeth and Steven Wilson (both in and out of Porcupine Tree).

 

As such I've been looking into what boards are around at the moment and have become rather lost in the mess of advertising and the fact that because its not about guitars the only people that talk about boards are people that really (really really) know what they are talking about and sometimes the discussion goes right over my head.

 

I've considered the following options: finding a new main board OR getting a controller and perhaps Logic/Mainstage to run my sounds (point of information - I'd be using a late-2011 MacBook Pro to run Logic and Mainstage off).

 

I'd love to hear thoughts and advice on what I should consider in my quest to find a new board - also please tell me if there are glaring omissions from my (long) post about what could help you all give me more specific advice.

[stillplaying]

Welcome to the forum. What's your budget?

 

That S90 is a good bit of kit. What does it not do - or what does it not do as well as you'd like?

 

Here's a link to a Sound On Sound review for anyone on here that's not familiar with it:

 

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec03/articles/yamahas90.htm

[johnchop]

If you've already got the MacBook Pro, you can get Mainstage 2 for $30 from the App Store.

 

Plug your S90 into your Mac, and you've got a HUGE new palette of sounds, plus a bunch of software synths you can program. If you need to upgrade beyond your Mac's built-in sound output, there are dozens of good audio interfaces right around the $200 mark.

 

So, that's the software route, which is low risk but potentially low return in that you will have 4 zillion presets to mess with, plus synths to program

 

The question then is whether this is something you want to gig with. For some folks, the "computer on stage" thing is a non-starter.

 

Also, as stillgigging points out, the S90 is a great board and should cover the church gig with ease. So, yeah, we'll need to know what's turning you off there (if anything).

 

Are you still looking for a weighted-action keyboard?

 

-John

[MoodyBluesKeys]

I play in a worship band - and tried the computer route (not a Mac, but a PC with eMu 0404 MIDI/ASIO Audio. At the time, I was using a Kurz K2000 and PC2 - and neither really gave me enough knobbage to fully control what I wanted to do in changing patches easily on the computer. Leaning over to the right and using a touchpad or mouse to change patches just didn't get it in live playing.

 

I now use a Kurzweil PC361 as top board, with the older PC2 as lower board. The Kurzweils both have excellent orchestral patches, EP's (my PC2 has the optional Classic Keys ROM), a good enough Hammond/B3 sound from the PC361, pianos, strings, and the VA architecture in the PC361 gives me a lot of the prog style synth goodness (the factory VA patches are basic, but using the sliders with them lets one change patch character extensively, plus I can save good starting points.

 

I don't have an S90, but a PC361, PC361K, or even PC361LE would complement the S90 quite well.

 

I also like having both boards available (these boards are left at the church, I have a PC3 and PC3X also for other gigs and studio use). I can setup one board for the next needed sound while playing the other board, and can add such things a accents (like full orchestra on one board with added stabs from bright trumpet on the other).

 

The Kurzweils also give me very good rapid changes of patches. When we set up for cantatas, I set up patches in order on the PC361 using the QA section (which allows setting a mixture of programs and setups) in the sequence that they will be used.

 

The OP didn't make it clear if the new board is to complement the S90 or to replace the S90. Another advantage of dual boards is that there is still something to use if one of them quits during a service (though I've never yet had that happen). If the new board is to be the only board, I'd suggest a 76 or 88 key instead of the 61. My PC2 is 76 key lightly weighted, and the PC361 is 61 key synth action.

 

 

[Bif_]

DrHorace,

 

I also play in a church worship band. My current keyboard rig for that setting is Motif XS and Kurzweil PC3. We just got the PC3 to replace a Roland Fantom S88.

 

I'll echo what Moodyblueskeys wrote. the PC3 has excellent piano, EP, B3 (with a very good Leslie simulation thanks to an OS upgrade), awesome strings and orchestral sounds and wonderful moving pads. The VA stuff should help with the prog stuff too.

 

I would also recommend that you plan on having two keyboards for flexibility with the worship music. I find that I have to be able to pick sounds 'on the fly' and also find that I improvise a lot with sound selection.

 

The S90 is still a great instrument and will work well with whatever other instrument you purchase.

 

Also, you should be able to get a used PC361 for less than $1500 (I've seen them as low as $1000). I just got the PC3 (76 note keyboard) for $1950. Not cheap but still a fair price.

 

Good luck,

 

Greg

[CEB]

If you want a single board that will also cover organ and keep the price under 3000. I would look to Kurzweil.

 

If you were happy with S90 organs then maybe you can find a deal on a 88 key Korg M3 with Radius.

[Bif_]

If you were happy with S90 organs ...

 

The S90 has the same organs as the Motif ES. I can tell you from personal experience that the PC3 organ is much more authentic than the Motif ES.

[CEB]

Pretty much anything else available today is more authenic than Yamaha organs. LOL! That is just not their thing.

[Justin Havu]

I'm the worship leader at my church, and I also like to have a lot a different sounds handy. I'm currently using a Korg 01/W Pro X as my main board and a Yamaha S03 as my second board.

 

While I haven't had any hands-on experience with it, I would add the Korg Kronos to the list. It's flexible enough to either be a great main board in a 2-keyboard setup, or a great 2nd board. With 9 different synth engines, it would easily cover all of your needs, and more! Plus, it has Set List mode, allowing you to set up your favorite programs, combis, sequences, and set them up in any order you like, and smoothly transition from one to the next.

[David Emm]

 

Running things from a laptop definitely represents an additional workload. I use Logic and find its synths to be comprehensive, but step #1 is considering your set list and general logistics. Are you ready to carry a UPS and a line conditioner to protect it? Do you just need it to be a patch-changer you can step through or do you want it to be a second pair of hands for various purposes? Most importantly, will Logic/Mainstage add enough to the music to be worth the effort, or is it overkill?

 

I get the feeling that you'd prefer a workstation, which has a big draw for prog. The S90 doesn't exactly have the friendliest programming environment, although the sound is nice and sharp. If you are comfortable with Yamaha-speak, a Motif is a natural choice; look into its sequencer in particular and scope it out. Roland's Fantom is being phased out and the current Jupiter is not a workstation, but is designed for detailed live performance. Unless you are prepared to seriously commit to living in Kurzworld- and you have to, because its incredibly deep- your current best bet would be a Kronos, or perhaps a Krome. Your praise basics are beautifully covered with gravy to spare and the multiple synth engines will allow you to switch hats for a turn at angular Porcupine Tree lines.

 

I am a bit Korg-biased and actually owned a MonoPoly as my first one. I just like the feel of both the knobs and the sounds over the years. I've played from the religious liturgy a bit and was a big prog fan during its 70s heyday, so I feel equipped to say that a Korg has a certain tone and bombast that serves both of those arenas better than anyone else does, if you just whipped them all out of the box and tried them out flat-footed.

 

Its your call, of course, but I hope you can try several of these out somewhere and have a chance to decide the Feel parameter for yourself. I'd enjoy hearing how it struck you, because you're clearly no total newbie, but you're also looking at a real step up in your game.

 

[DrHorace]

Wow, thanks for a spectacular array of responses everyone!

 

I'm at work and won't be able to process these 'till tonight (Australian time - its 9.30am here now) however please don't think OP has ditched the post after all this stellar advice!

 

To be continued... (hopefully without a double post >.<)

[JeffLearman]

I agree that S90 is a nice bit of kit, if you don't mind lugging the beast. If you plan to keep it and add a 2nd tier, a used Nord Electro 2 61 would be a great addition to the sound palette, cover the organs quite well for prog & worship, as well as EP's and clav. It's strong precisely where the S90 is weak. Use the S90's piano and synth/pad/string sounds. That also gives you an organ-like action on top. Furthermore, you can use the NE alone as a nice little board for rehearsals or whenever you don't want to lug the whole rig. It's piano isn't great, but good enough for rehearsals IMHO.

 

A used NE2/61 runs as low as $600. There's one for that price right now on ebay (and that's a great deal for what you get).

[JeffLearman]

Ah, down under. A used NE2 might be harder to snag. Good luck!

 

BTW, I played for several years using my Ensoniq MR76 as the piano and controller for software organ. It's doable. But I really like having a 2nd tier, both to play piano and organ at the same time, and also for faster switching between instruments -- not to mention not having to play organ on a piano action.

[DrHorace]

Alrighty, quite an array of advice to reply to, thank you all!

 

Starting with general notes, my budget runs to around $2500AUD (which equates, depending where you hail from as follows according to Google: 2637.25USD, 1976.66EUR).

 

Is this board to be added to or replaced: ostensibly to be replaced however given your responses I'd consider the idea of adding a second level with a smaller board.

 

What's wrong with having an S90 (i.e is this a case of GAS): its complicated. I wouldn't characterise this as GAS however at the same time its not because I loath the board I've got.

 

I've found the S90's sounds to be pretty good overall though I've been very underwhelmed (and this would appear to be born out by other's experience) with the organs and the EP sounds. I do admit to loathing the harpsichord patch on the board.

 

It reveals where I'm lacking in the experience department but I must confess to finding the programming possibilities of the S90 quite confusing. I wouldn't say its because I'm not 'tech savvy' - I submit that I've read the manual which helped some however I've not found a great deal of tutes online to dive into and without that I've found it difficult to translate the possibilities in the manual into musical possibilities. I'm certainly open to learning however I suppose another facet of this decision is that I'm considering more 'supported' boards with a community to get involved in.

 

Furthermore I've really had difficulty with being able to get to the p:atches that I need quickly in a live setting and changing them fluidly (unless I've missed something blindingly obvious, I can't change patch while holding a chord and have the sound sustain through the change). Connected to this, I've had great difficulty layering more than 4 patches across the board - the only solution I could think of was nesting performances within another performance however this didn't seem to be possible.

 

Now that the general things are said, I'll ask some specific questions of those of you who responded, if I may:

 

@Johnchop: you mentioned the 'low risk, possible low reward' outcome from getting Mainstage. Can I ask, what are the sounds like in terms of quality and how does it go in a live situation? I'm not worried about the ability to program things in a non-line setting as, especially with the luxury of a computer screen things should be easier however in a live setting how much of a pain can it become? Also, are there latency issues to speak of which can really impinge one the performance? Finally, what audio interfaces would you recommend?

 

@MoodyBluesKeys: in your experience then, having a laptop doesn't give you enough control: is that because with a board with its own data on it can't map as many knobs, sliders and buttons or because you literally have to get off the keyboard to switch stuff? Talking about the Kurz PC361(LE or not): what do you mean by the rapid changing of patches with the QA section?

 

@Bif: when you have two keyboards for worship playing does it extend you improvisational ability or are you twice as focused on making sure two complex machines are on the right setting?

 

@CEB: I note that Kurz would appear to be a good compromise in my budget bracket, what makes you suggest the Korg M3 and how does it compare to, for example, the Kurz?

 

@David Emm: you mention Logic but unlike Johnchop, not mainstage: I'll reveal a little more ignorance here, how does that work? For while I can understand soft-sythns from Mainstage, how does a DAW work in a live setting? Connected to that, what kinds of things do you mean when you say a 'second pair of hands' - are we talking a backing track of programmed drums or literally a 'loop pedal' of some sort dynamically edited in a live setting? When you say the steep learning 'kurve' (har har), about what kinds of things: the architecture/setup of the keyboard itself or more general keyboard programming principles?

 

@learjeff: Nord Electro 2's seem to be a little thin on the ground down under though a Nord Electro 4 does land in my price bracket - you suggest that the piano sounds aren't all that crash hot however going with the idea that the Nord does have passable sounds, can the Electro be MIDI'd to the S90 and I use the hammer keys for the piano sound while having a EP/Organ on the top board? Can the S90 control surfaces be mapped to the Nord or vice versa? And the idea of a lighter board does appeal - S90 is a beast of a thing to carry.

 

Alrighty! Quite a response, I look forward to more discussion with you all!

 

DrHorace

 

[stillplaying]

@DrHorace I am aware that I am not part of this "praise band scene" that I see a lot of people involved in on here.

 

Any "churchy" stuff I've played has been weddings and hymns and carol services. SATB hymns, Bach etc ...

 

If I've understood your "scene" - sacred and secular - we both seem to be using similar gear, PAs ... so

 

...what are you playing your S90 through? Just wanted to check if maybe a quality powered speaker might improve your happiness as much as a new 'board.

[johnchop]

DrHorace,

 

Thanks for the details.

 

(Just for reference: I've owned a Korg M3 and a Yam MO8, and I now own a Kurz PC3 76 key plus a Receptor and MacBook Pro running all kinds of software.)

 

Re: Mainstage, the presets are surprisingly good, but of course it will host other virtual instruments, so if you need a better piano, buy the one you want and add it to the Mainstage mixer. The built-in electric piano and organ engines still hold up REALLY well. The synths are no slouches either.

 

Re: audio interfaces: I'm using a Focusrite Saffire Pro 14 (Firewire), and I'm getting great sound quality and no latency issues with it. If I were buying again I'd consider the Pro 40 (power switch, more outs, ADAT). If money were no object, I'd go with RME. Money remains an object.

 

The topic of using Mainstage or any other host in a live setting is a big one, and I'm running short on time, but I'll do a brain dump on your other questions:

 

- The Korg Kronos and the current Kurzweil boards will do the "Patch Remain" thing, were you can change patches with existing sounds still ringing out. Not sure how many other boards can do this.

 

- The Kurz PC3s (all models) have a "Quick Access" (QA) mode that lets you save favorite or related programs (individual sounds) and setups (combinations of sounds) in banks of ten. This is a great way of dialing around sounds in a setlist. The Kronos also offers a "setlist" feature that works similarly (albeit with a spiffy touchscreen). Getting Kurz setups together is not all that hard. Check out the tutorial vids with Geoffrey Gee on the website to get a sense of it! It is arguably the most powerful MIDI controller out there and a heck of a live board. Korg combis... likewise, not hard.

 

- Programming individual sounds... on the Kurz, it's like having a mini modular on your hands. I can be productive on it, but it's a turn off for some folks. Again, check the tutorial vids and see if it's the kind of environment you want to work in. The computer-based editor is... well, not quite primetime I'm afraid. If you want a more conventional set of synth engines to work in, the Kronos offers several of them! FYI, the M3 offers a typical ROMpler engine (layers of multisamples) + virtual analog if you get the RADIAS card, which I recommend.

 

- Soundwise... I mean, all recent boards just sound freakin' amazing. It's a matter of degrees, I think. If there is ANY way you can get yourself to a music store to try the board, DO IT.

 

I wouldn't buy any of those keyboards without laying my hands on them.

 

-John

[MoodyBluesKeys]

Johnchop has already explained QA mode in the Kurzweil - it stands for "Quick Access," each "page" of QA gives you ten spaces to put either individual patches or setups (Kurzweil speak for something similar to Yamaha combis), which can be accessed with a single button press on the numeric keypad. Sounds can also be accessed directly by punching in the patch number and hitting enter on the keypad. A third way to quickly change sounds is the bank buttons - select a bank, then one of 16 patches. PC stands for Performance Controller - these keyboards are designed for live performance.

 

Issues that I had when using a computer and soft synths: I did not have the PC361 then, which definitely has enough panel controls to map many different controls on the computer. Even then, there was no real way to change quickly while playing for examples like this: playing a Hammond Sound from NI B4, switch to a synth patch from eMu's Emulator X (a different program that would load as a different virtual instrument). I still had to change a lot of things using a mouse and looking at the computer screen (which was off to one side).

 

I still use computers in music when assembling stuff in the studio - I just found that the Kurzweil gives me more immediate control without disturbing my focus on the music. I'm not that great a player, and I need to be able to focus on both my playing and how it is blending with the others in the band.

 

Admittedly, some keyboards are easier to control than others. I tried a Yamaha a while back that required digging down several layers into a menu to play any of the several hundred sounds that were not among the 16 or so that could be accessed with one button press. I liked the sound of the board, but despised the amount of work needed if I wanted (for instance) a solo oboe or English horn patch for a few bars, then back to full orchestra. On the PC3 series, I can handle that with single button presses.

 

I make my livelihood on computers and networking, have a good understanding of them. However, when playing with the band, I want to be a musician, not a nerd fiddling with the computer and secondarily playing. BTW - for those who do integrate computers into their live playing - no problem, I may not have set up a proper system for the job.

 

[joeljjison]

I've been (roughly) in your position, where I needed more sounds to become available to me. I would strongly suggest Mainstage for an immediate and cheap solution. For £30 you can already got all those sounds, and hook up to your S90. I don't think Mainstage is the best option, but it is the cheapest option, and if you consider that you could later (or first) get a new main board, and supplement what it already has by also using it as a controller for Mainstage.

 

I've been using the Nord Stage 1 at Church for a long time. I've using pianos , Ep's , organ, and synth pads, with the pads volume controlled by a foot pedal. Occasionally, for special programs, I bring my laptop and a midi controller to play some more exciting sounds!

 

My full set up is a Nord Stage , with a Midi Controller and Mainstage as the top keyboard. Its actually very liberating to have two boards, but my ideal situation would be two keyboards with similar capabilities, and no laptop. To that end, I eventually plan to use a 61 key Korg Kronos at top. They retail for £2000 , and the impression I got when I tried one is that it would be very good for church!

 

[CEB]

Alrighty, quite an array of advice to reply to, thank you all!

 

.....@CEB: I note that Kurz would appear to be a good compromise in my budget bracket, what makes you suggest the Korg M3 and how does it compare to, for example, the Kurz?

....

 

I suggested the M3-88 because it is now on clearance. I like the Radias architechure. Programming seems more straight forward and you have a sampler available on the M3. It is an older flagship unit that I thought was worth taking a look at if you can get a really good deal on it.

 

Kurzweil is really fine stuff also. Today it is all good.

 

Another thought is Roland is expected to release a Fantom replacement. You may be able to get a good deal on a 88 key Fantom but I would probably prefer the M3 personally.

[Bif_]

@DrHorace I am aware that I am not part of this "praise band scene" .....

 

Any "churchy" stuff I've played has been weddings and hymns and carol services. SATB hymns, Bach etc ...

 

stillgigging,

 

Musically speaking, the typical 'church praise band' (an admittedly lame sounding description) that does contemporary worship music has more in common with a band that plays weddings, one-nighters, etc., than it does with the church. It's truly a band (bass, drums, guitars, keys) doing music that often sounds like 'top 40' stuff. During a typical service our band often covers music currently heard on top 40 Christian radio.

 

Go to youtube and check out artists like Jeremy Camp, Chris Tomlin, Hillsong and Switchfoot will give you an idea of what's going on in the contemporary Christian music scene.

 

Greg

[stillplaying]

Thanks Greg - that's what I suspected - I don't know any of those people but from the discussions I see on here it seemed the line ups and equipment must be very similar to my function band work.

[Bif_]

@Bif: when you have two keyboards for worship playing does it extend you improvisational ability or are you twice as focused on making sure two complex machines are on the right setting?

 

DrHorace

It is much more liberating to play with two boards for several reasons;

1) you can play one keyboard while changing sounds on the other

2) you can play one sound during the verse and add another sound on the other keyboard during the chorus (for instance a pad during the verse and add organ during the chorus)

3) you could play a lead line on one board over accompaniment on the other

 

Much of this could be done by careful programming and keyboard splitting on one keyboard, but would require much more pre-planning and effort.

 

At one time I had three keyboards in my church setup and loved it. The ability to have more sounds at your fingertips on each board makes it much easier to improvise and respond to what is happening. With practice, using multiple keyboards becomes effortless.

 

Also reiterating something from moodyblueskeys regarding the Kurzweil PC3, the sound does remain when you change from one program to another. This even works fairly well when you switch from one 'setup' to another (a setup is s collection programs mapped across the keyboard). Also, regarding 'Quick Access' mode, you can access each of 140 different programs with only two button pushes. This is a pretty big deal for live use.

 

I also agree with what CEB said. "Today it is all good." You should be able to make very good music with any workstation made within the past 10 years.

 

Greg

 

 

 

[David Emm]

 

 

>>> @David Emm: you mention Logic but unlike Johnchop, not mainstage: I'll reveal a little more ignorance here, how does that work? For while I can understand soft-synths from Mainstage, how does a DAW work in a live setting?

 

It depends on your bravery. I used to play a few solo shows on the high-wire of accompanying myself over sequences I'd written at home, all from within a Korg 01Wfd. (I was shuffling 3.5" diskettes like poker cards.) It was win-win to have people accept that part of it involved pressing Play, but also that my playing the leads and pianos over it in real-time was an acceptable hybrid. Of course, that's not a solution for a whole band unless its been agreed to stick to the sequences, but your DAW can act as a very sophisticated sideman. Whether you feel more drawn to trust a DAW or the sequencer in your workstation for bigger productions is a personal call.

 

>>> Connected to that, what kinds of things do you mean when you say a 'second pair of hands' - are we talking a backing track of programmed drums or literally a 'loop pedal' of some sort dynamically edited in a live setting?

 

I mean anything that suits the piece. Computers are now understood as part of a "band," so the end quality now trumps most cries of fakery. I let the Korg play a two-handed string/pad and then rendered a gritty lead e-guitar over it live. Worked swimmingly.

As far as looping and live alteration, that can come from juggling Ableton Live clips well or massaging a Kaoss pad. I love people who build up layers with loop pedals and create ensembles in real-time. They have a specific purpose and chose the right tool for the job. Looping is almost a style of its own, whether dance-oriented or ambient, so you must decide if it suits your goals.

 

>>>>> When you say the steep learning 'kurve' (har har), about what kinds of things: the architecture/setup of the keyboard itself or more general keyboard programming principles?

 

Both. The first aspect of your question lies in knowing what kinds of sounds suit your style(s) and choosing an instrument whose strengths start there. A DX7 is a poor choice if you need an acoustic piano. Any workstation can generally be trusted to have a passable array of acoustic sounds and then certain more detailed synth programming resources, like 3 or 4 assignable LFOs. Being prog-minded, you'll probably want the means to build layers in a manner not suited to a Nord Modular. There's the dividing line concerning architecture.

The second depends on your style and the level of woodshedding required for you to feel that you can generally make sound changes readily. Unless you're wild for a 16-stage envelope, the usual ADSR covers a lot of ground. You simply have to keep playing with things to learn that, for example, a little sine wave can add a lot of nice weight to a bass, pad or woodwind patch. The basics are easy enough to suss. Learning to use a matrix modulation grid for key-position cross-fading between sounds requires, um, maybe a bit more time.

 

 

 

[Ekewaka]

Mainstage works just fine. But it's good to have HW to back up in case something happens with either system.

[DrHorace]

Thanks for the continued discussion, despite my radio silence!

 

I've been looking into recommendations, and from that I've some questions:

 

Krome versus Kronos versus M3:

 

There isn't a snowballs chance in hell that I can afford a 88-key Kronos however it is possible to, for example, with a 61-key model drive an 88 key controller (or the S90) with the Kronos sounds?

 

Also, in really brutal terms, what do you loose with the Krome in playablity: I can see the obvious 'numerical' differences in hardware but how do you find that they translate? (If that's a question that can be answered) I ask because its very affordable for me, even in the 88 key model.

 

Finally, the M3: I could perhaps get the 61-key model, and again can that drive another controller? Further, despite it being the 'old model' I doubt that its a bad keyboard (as indeed has been mentioned).

 

Also, subject to my actually testing these out, what is your opinion of Korg's weighted feel?

[Losendoskeys]

I need three for Genesis trib.........ideally four!

Roland XP30/Hammond SK2/Kronos 73

[AnotherScott]

There isn't a snowballs chance in hell that I can afford a 88-key Kronos however it is possible to, for example, with a 61-key model drive an 88 key controller (or the S90) with the Kronos sounds?

Yes. This would be the way I'd go. I'd find the Kronos 88 too heavy for gigging. I'd get the 61 and a 24 pound Casio 88, which can trigger the Kronos pianos, even while you trigger another sound from the Kronos' own keyboard, if you want. It's cost-effective, weight-effective, and you have weighted action for piano and unweighted action for organ/synth. Plus a lot more key "real estate" so you don't have to worry about things like running out of keys for a part because of a split, and you have a spare to get through the gig in case a board fails or gets damaged.

 

Also, in really brutal terms, what do you loose with the Krome in playablity: I can see the obvious 'numerical' differences in hardware but how do you find that they translate?

You mean Krome versus Kronos? I haven't played a Krome myself. The actions are different, though, and the Krome has a small subset of the Kronos' functionality. Basically, as I understand it, the Krome has a scaled down version of the stock Kronos SGX-1 acoustic pianos, sampled versions of some of the Krome modeled EP-1 electric pianos, and then the rest are straight HD-1 style rompler sounds (though perhaps closer to the M50 there, Krome's predecessor), with no equivalent to the rest of the Kronos engines, no streaming of user samples (no user samples at all, actually), no set list mode, no aftertouch, etc. etc. etc.

[allan_evett]

I second AnotherScott's idea about the Kronos 61 / lightweight 88 combination. A Casio PX-350 would be a solid choice for that rig. I have a Kronos 88; great piece of kit, but it gets the majority of use in my home workspace, going out on live gigs only occasionally. It's not the weight, but more the space it takes up; plus it can be a bit awkward / slippery to manuever.

 

I have had a chance to play a Krome 88, and was pleasantly surprised. The tones are excellent; lots of variety, sonically. Granted, it's not a multi-sound engine keyboard like the Kronos; but it still sounds like a high quality, pro 'board. The one area it does lack slightly in is the keybed. Some here strongly dislike it; I found it ok for what it is - a lighter, weighted action 88. Still, I'd give the PX-350 a strong edge, playability-wise, over the Krome 88 keybed. I'd recommended auditioning a Krome 88 though.

[PinkFloydDudi]

Just quickly adding that the Kronos seems to have the "QA" feature mentioned for Kurz as well. You can mark a combi or program as a "favorite" and then filter it so that only your "favorites" display when picking a sound.

[AnotherScott]

Just quickly adding that the Kronos seems to have the "QA" feature mentioned for Kurz as well. You can mark a combi or program as a "favorite" and then filter it so that only your "favorites" display when picking a sound.

Actually, the closest equivalent to Kurzweil's QA mode on the Kronos is their Set List mode (which is actually better). Yamaha also has an equivalent on many boards in their Master mode.