I've outgrown my rig and it's driving me mad.

[Dglavko]

With respect to listening to Lonnie on an A100/147 vs Tony on a Mojo/3300, I highly doubt that that you'd hear any noticable difference if both the Mojo and the A100 went through the same 147.

 

You might be right about that... We should coordinate a blindfold test to try that out sometime. I don't have the pre-amp to hook up the Mojo to my 145 but could hook it and the A100 to the 3300.

 

Mind you, inspiration to the player does not always (often) amount to discernable differences to the listener, and sometimes inspiration sometimes comes from other subtle things such as Hammond oils, wood and key feel, weight, instrument history, hours on that particular instrument model...

 

Also, in fairness, I should also qualify my comments that some of what I heard an Tony's show was the mic'd 3300, whereas all that I heard of Lonnie's show was 5 feet closer directly from the Leslie (un mic'd). So Lonnie's A100 had a slight advantage in that setting.

[ProfD]

Since the C1/Pro 145 set-up worked great in the past, I would also recommend investing in different amplification or outboard gear rather than cop a new instrument.

[Tusker]

When the instrument fails to inspire, it's often time to woodshed some new tunes and listen to some new players.

[ProfD]

When the instrument fails to inspire, it's often time to woodshed some new tunes and listen to some new players.

Jerry has provided the best advice.

[dazzjazz]

When the instrument fails to inspire, it's often time to woodshed some new tunes and listen to some new players.

 

I'm already there.

[Craig MacDonald]

With respect to listening to Lonnie on an A100/147 vs Tony on a Mojo/3300, I highly doubt that that you'd hear any noticable difference if both the Mojo and the A100 went through the same 147.

 

You might be right about that... We should coordinate a blindfold test to try that out sometime. I don't have the pre-amp to hook up the Mojo to my 145 but could hook it and the A100 to the 3300.

 

Mind you, inspiration to the player does not always (often) amount to discernable differences to the listener, and sometimes inspiration sometimes comes from other subtle things such as Hammond oils, wood and key feel, weight, instrument history, hours on that particular instrument model...

 

Also, in fairness, I should also qualify my comments that some of what I heard an Tony's show was the mic'd 3300, whereas all that I heard of Lonnie's show was 5 feet closer directly from the Leslie (un mic'd). So Lonnie's A100 had a slight advantage in that setting.

 

I would expect a difference in sound between a 145 and a 3300, although I've never used a 3300 (I would like to try one though)..

 

Dglavko, I have an A100 (in a B-style cabinet) and a 147 along with a 147 model speakeasy preamp. So doing a comparison between an A100 and a Mojo into a 147, is relatively easy for me.. perhaps I'll give this a try in the next couple of weeks.. if I do, I'll call you and you can come over!

[Dglavko]

Count me in - will bring a blindfold and maybe the 3300 too!

[dazzjazz]

Another question: I'm about to pull the trigger on a new clone, most likely the KeyB due to the interface and sim.

 

I cannot try this out in person before ordering, so my question is:

 

Do you imagine that the Leslie Sim, running in stereo through 2 QSC K10s would sound better than my Motion Sound Pro 145?

 

Pretty difficult to answer, but I imagine that it would be better, or at least as good as.

 

Thanks for your patience on this topic.

[Dglavko]

I will do an AB on my MS145 - Mojo the next couple days if you can wait

[dazzjazz]

Great sounds good! Many thanks!

[Dglavko]

Ok - so I rolled out the 3300, put the MS145 on top of that, and a speakeasy rack pre-amp on top of all for good measure, and plugged the Mojo L out into the speakeasy (L speakeasy out to MS145, vs 11 pin speakeasy out to the 3300), vs L & R Mojo out to a QSC K10 and Acoustic Image Coda (unfairly bipassing the speakeasy tubes for them).

 

Now in fairness I'm not sure if L Mojo out is best (no default mono? I switched to settings 0-2 just to be sure). Would merging L & R via DI box be better? Perhaps.

 

I'll be honest. I love vinyl over CD's. Tubes over solid state. And air over sims, and I'm not sure how objective I can be in the end. But this contest is really really close. So close that it's hard to deny we are splitting hairs.

 

Everything is as it should be. All sound like a real Leslie, although the MS145 horn still sounds just a tad whooshy on fast, but not enough to bother me or tweak.

 

My first reaction is to say that that the real air of the 145/3300 feels more... real. Old school bias perhaps. Or not.

 

My second reaction is to recall the sound of my (since sold) Nord C1 through the 3300/MS145. It sounded pretty close to this. Why did I sell it again? Oh yeah, no drawbars, keyclick was too loud, and I rarely used the percussion or C/V. But beyond that (add OB drawbars and Vent though and it was almost there).

 

Presence/Image: I must admit that the Mojo sim stereo imaging cuts more/has more presence although suppose that is inevitable given the L-R speaker placement each accross the room vs top-bottom MS145/3300. Is that more inspiring? Kind of.

 

Clarity: There is more clarity in the sim than the MS145, but not overwhelmingly so, at least at comfortable solo/volumes.The 3300 and the sim are both crystal clear, with the 3300 having a slight edge (perhaps thanks to the Speakeasy).

 

Volume: The 3300 and QSC/AI are equal contenders for Volume, though sending another signal to a PA if needed is obviously easier on the sim than miking the 3300. The MS145 is clearly underpowered in comparison to the others. I recall that it sounded better when using the Nord C1's high output - perhaps a signal boost would help the Mojo -MS145 combo. This might be a dealbreaker for the MS145.

 

Bass/Bottom end: QSC/AI wins hands down. Mind you, the 3300 and MS145 have sub outs for a reason. Would not be an issue on your (non MS)145's (?).

 

Realism: This (Mojo sim to QSC) is as good a digital/modelled rig will get IMO, but it is still a clone and sim, and in my view, a sim will always sound a bit... simulated. Perhaps a tad more sterile than both the MS145/3300 but then I'd say the same thing about CDs vs vinyl. (I listen to both of course.)

 

Bottom line: the QSC/AI-sim nudges the MS145 into 3rd place. Although still sounds pretty darn good at lower volumes, it does continue to ask to be tweaked just a bit, and varies some with room, placement etc., and may not deliver enough volume on mid size stages/venues.

 

The QSC pair vs 3300 contest is pretty close, which is remarkable, given that one is using a sim. If convenience is important (weight, DI to PA) then the QSC/sim is the obvious winner.

 

Convenience aside, the 3300 (or better yet, an old leslie145 (or two) still have the edge from a player's/on stage perspective. I think that this will would become increasingly evident at louder volumes.

 

That said, I really should have done this test in the other room where the A100-leslie145 sit, as I am certain that the Mojo (or the KeyB you contemplate) will inspire even more via that leslie.

 

And I doubt I could get a better recorded sound out of my 59 A100-leslie in the other room than from the Mojo sim directly, even for an old school jazz recording. (Mind you my recording skills are pretty minimal).

 

But no surprise, and perhaps more importantly, I still find more inspiration from playing the real deal (A100-leslie). I suspect that will never change as long as she keeps on ticking.

 

All IMO of course. Hope this helps.

 

 

[ITGITC]

I'll be honest. I love vinyl over CD's. Tubes over solid state. And air over sims, and I'm not sure how objective I can be in the end. But this contest is really really close. So close that it's hard to deny we are splitting hairs.

 

Thanks.

 

You may enjoy this paper: A Review of Digital Techniques for Modeling Vacuum-Tube Guitar Amplifiers

Jyri Pakarinen*, David T. Yeh

 

...it is not surprising that many attempts have been made to emulate guitar tube amplifiers using smaller and cheaper solid-state analog circuits (e.g.,Todokoro 1976; Sondermeyer 1984). The next step in the evolution of tube-amplifier emulation has been to simulate the amplifiers using computers and digital signal processors (DSP).

 

 

Tom

 

 

[dazzjazz]

Ok - so I rolled out the 3300, put the MS145 on top of that, and a speakeasy rack pre-amp on top of all for good measure

The rig of doom! Spinal Tap would be proud!

 

But this contest is really really close. So close that it's hard to deny we are splitting hairs. Everything is as it should be. All sound like a real Leslie

This is good news. Especially for the stereo QSC rig, which is probably what I'd have to go for as I doubt the KeyB and a 145 would fit in my Corolla wagon. I've tried my C1 with a 3300 and thought it sounded OK, but not awesome, certainly not to justify the $4000 price tag here in Australia. I upgraded the woofer in my MS145 and there is plenty of bass. It still has a weird mid-range honk, which I can kinda fix with the eq at 9 o'clock.

 

My first reaction is to say that that the real air of the 145/3300 feels more real

This sounds like what I refer to as cabinet presence, or resonance, something I love about my 45 or 145. Something that is very hard to simulate.

 

Clarity: There is more clarity in the sim than the MS145, but not overwhelmingly so

wow, that's surprising, very good news.

Volume: The 3300 and QSC/AI are equal contenders for Volume, though sending another signal to a PA if needed is obviously easier on the sim than miking the 3300. The MS145 is clearly underpowered in comparison to the others. I recall that it sounded better when using the Nord C1's high output - perhaps a signal boost would help the Mojo -MS145 combo. This might be a dealbreaker for the MS145.

wow you must play loud! I've never got the MS145 near its 11 mark! The high level output of the C1 is a great idea and it does make a difference to how it drives the preamp.

Bass/Bottom end: QSC/AI wins hands down. Mind you, the 3300 and MS145 have sub outs for a reason. Would not be an issue on your (non MS)145's (?).

true, they are great Leslie's, just not very loud.

Realism: This (Mojo sim to QSC) is as good a digital/modelled rig will get IMO

this is good news.

Bottom line: the QSC/AI-sim nudges the MS145 into 3rd place. Although still sounds pretty darn good at lower volumes, it does continue to ask to be tweaked just a bit, and varies some with room, placement etc., and may not deliver enough volume on mid size stages/venues.

I've heard my current rig sounding truely amazing in certain venues.

The QSC pair vs 3300 contest is pretty close, which is remarkable, given that one is using a sim. If convenience is important (weight, DI to PA) then the QSC/sim is the obvious winner.

not to mention price!

Convenience aside, the 3300 (or better yet, an old leslie145 (or two) still have the edge from a player's/on stage perspective. I think that this will would become increasingly evident at louder volumes.

 

That said, I really should have done this test in the other room where the A100-leslie145 sit, as I am certain that the Mojo (or the KeyB you contemplate) will inspire even more via that leslie.

 

And I doubt I could get a better recorded sound out of my 59 A100-leslie in the other room than from the Mojo sim directly, even for an old school jazz recording. (Mind you my recording skills are pretty minimal).

 

But no surprise, and perhaps more importantly, I still find more inspiration from playing the real deal (A100-leslie). I suspect that will never change as long as she keeps on ticking.

 

All IMO of course. Hope this helps.

 

 

It certainly does help. I really appreciate all the trouble you've gone to for me.

I think it's time to order the KeyB. I'm sure I will end up with a rig that I'll be happy with, certainly happier than what I have currently.

[Dglavko]

Glad to be of assistance!

 

I had another go at it tonight, and moved the rig out to the A100's room for some more comparisons.

 

First thing I should add is that I took a peak at the Mojo manual and turned off the Mojo sim altogether. This seemed to result in a hotter signal and I got much more volume out of the MS145 than before, so my dealbreaker volume comment above perhaps no longer applies.

 

My first reaction after that was to think, "hey the MS sounds great! What was I thinking?"

 

But then I get to the bottom end, and compare it with the huge bottom end on my A100 rig and despite fiddling with the MS bass frequencies, or even using the sub out to the QSC, the sim still edges it out.

 

I should add though that my MS has not been modded like yours, but for replacing the tube with an old RCA. So mine buzzes and rattles a bit on some notes, and seems rather anemic at times on the bottom end. The distortion is also a bit off at times.

 

IF I could mod all that/get all the bugs worked out, get a lot more bass and a tad more volume (would need a major mod for all that), I think I'd prefer the MS over the sim, as I still contend that there is nothing like moving air.

 

But even at that point I don't think I'd find the QSC-AI sim significantly less inspiring, particularly with a stereo rig (Mojo has some cool speaker placement settings) and I would probably gig more if not entirely with the sim particularly given the convenience (shlepping) considerations.

[dazzjazz]

Any YouTube of your rig perhaps?

[Dglavko]

Nothing of the current one (Mojo I assume you meant - My A100 sounds just like Medeski's, not that I can play it like him) and I'm heading out of town tomorrow am for a couple weeks more/less.

 

What were you wanting to see/hear?

[dazzjazz]

Nothing in particular, just thoug you might have existing clips of that rig. Have a great trip!

 

[Dglavko]

Still woodshedding these days (main band on mat leave) but soon enough I hope! Cheers and good luck w the gear search!

David

[LX88]

Darren

 

I have heard some of your recordings and I think the one you will want is the Key B definitely.

 

The main reason being chorus vibrato and very authentic tone. For jazz, Elvio's stuff is hard to beat....

 

Even on the Numa I have never doubted the chorus vibrato, not even one time. This is going on almost 2 years. And the Key B sim still sounding great too.

 

I A/B'ed the Key B and Nord C2 in 2011 and for me it was no contest.

 

Go Italian.

[telecaster]

 

You may enjoy this paper: A Review of Digital Techniques for Modeling Vacuum-Tube Guitar Amplifiers

Jyri Pakarinen*, David T. Yeh

 

 

Tom

 

Thanks, very interesting!! :-)

 

regards

otto