The Difference Between a Custom Built And Stock Bass

[Cthulhu Fhtagn]

Reviewed extensively in a previous issue of BPM. They are not very good. An effort by the manufacture to provide "boutique basses without the boutique price tag".

 

Better off spending the pennies on a MexiP or an Ibanez. But they are inexpensive.

[TimR]

Ok. I'll play.

 

but first let's get the symantics right.

 

Stock: Off the shelf or internet you only chose the colour.

Special/Limited Edition: The bass your hero plays or one that the marketing department think would sell well. It's essentially a stock bass but with special features; 5 strings, active pickups or fancy finish etc.

Custom: The stock bass but you decice the specail features instead of your bass hero or the marketing dept.

Franken Bass: A custom bass that you did yourself at home mainly from second hand parts.

Bespoke: Nothing is standard, you chose the wood and the profiles with or without the help of the builder, everything is made and assembled to your own specific requirements.

[Cthulhu Fhtagn]

... uploading this to Wikipedia ...

[TimR]

... uploading this to Wikipedia ...

 

Check my spelling

[Cthulhu Fhtagn]

ME!! Check Spelling!!! You're doomed.

[rumpelstiltskin.]

The custom built instruments that I wonder about are the ones made by Fender, Gibson, etc. Sometimes there is even a builder's name in the ads, someone I've never heard of.

 

i personally know one of the fender custom shop luthiers. he's a cool guy who used to do the same thing for peavey.

[alexclaber]

I know!!! You're such a freak!

 

Even still, good to hear from you again, Alex!

 

Well I wouldn't put it exactly like that - special, maybe?

 

Good to be back!

[Tom Capasso]

Late to the party but reading with interest.

 

TimR is on the right track - it isn't as simple as boutique vs. manufactured. There are so many variations. Size of the company - along with the type of distribution channels - helps define this - barely. Both Peavey and Fender have "custom shops" that operate differently than the "factory". And I went to see the Gibson guitar factory in Memphis and saw an assembly line where each station varied between specially skilled people and specialized machines (this was for their semi-hollow guitar line).

 

I agree with the OP that you can't buy a "boutique" bass and assume that it was made using small hand power tools. Roger Sadowski gave local forumites a tour back in 2002 and openly stated that CNC machines were used, along with outsourced woodshop facilities.

 

Following along from there, I think what makes a "boutique" bass different comes down to a few things.

 

1) Design - I find I often like "boutique" necks

2) Wood - as was said, smaller makers are more careful about the wood they use. Ash is ash, but the overseas manufacturers may not discard a piece with odd grain patterns that may look bad or resonate poorly.

3) Electronics - this is harder to apply a blanket statement, but really cheap instruments ($500 and under) often (not always) have cheaper preamps or pickups than the next level ($500 - $1200). Above that, it can vary from good to great electronics. I've seen some inexpensive instruments use some nice Duncan PUPs, and I've seen $700 instruments with stock EMGs. For example, my "made to order" Kinal has fairly standard Bartolinis. My Lull (which was not made to order but as a more "stock" group) has Lindy Fralins that Lull has made to his specs.

4) Final Review - "better" shops - or better models - are set up and "finalized" by more experienced (and sometimes more devoted) technicians.

 

And at the end of the day, it comes down to your preferences and budget. I have played some nice basses under $500, but I have found that I like the feel of instruments from the smaller makers.

 

I have to include a disclaimer here. I have an untenable, irrational, and uncommon negative feeling about Fender. I have played some Fenders that have sounded and played great and owned one for a while. Somehow they are just not what I want - whether we're talking about a very nice Squire Jaguar, an American J, or a custom shop special. I fully admit that this is odd on my part and I appreciate all that Leo and his legacy companies have brought to the table. Of the three basses I own, one (Lull M4V) is Fender style.

 

Tom

[plangentmusic]

1) Design - I find I often like "boutique" necks

2) Wood - as was said, smaller makers are more careful about the wood they use. Ash is ash, but the overseas manufacturers may not discard a piece with odd grain patterns that may look bad or resonate poorly.

3) Electronics - this is harder to apply a blanket statement, but really cheap instruments ($500 and under) often (not always) have cheaper preamps or pickups than the next level ($500 - $1200). Above that, it can vary from good to great electronics. I've seen some inexpensive instruments use some nice Duncan PUPs, and I've seen $700 instruments with stock EMGs. For example, my "made to order" Kinal has fairly standard Bartolinis. My Lull (which was not made to order but as a more "stock" group) has Lindy Fralins that Lull has made to his specs.

4) Final Review - "better" shops - or better models - are set up and "finalized" by more experienced (and sometimes more devoted) technicians.

 

Tom

 

...................

 

I'll address those points.

 

1: Boutique necks are usually though the body, which give a more solid feel, though they can also feel stiff. That's a judgment call.

 

2: True, specialty guitar makers may be more careful about the wood and provide a more consistent product. But again, I don't care about the entire line -- just the one I'm going to use.

 

3: I think pu's can be overrated in general. I've used Norstands and was unimpressed. The pu's in the Squier Deluxe jazz record better than most anything I've ever used and the entire bass cost less than the norstands. EMG's make anything sound like a bass with EMG's. I had a Fodera with a Michael Pop preamp and it still had that bland Fodera sound.

 

4: I think the "technicians" of guitars are also overrated. Setting up a bass isn't rocket science. Anyone can learn it.

 

So...in the end, if those features appeal to you -- if it's what you want and you;re willing to pay for it...great! Enjoy. But the difference is still nominal and for those who might be ready to spend more than they have in the hopes of getting something REALLY special by buying a boutique or custom built bass, may want to reconsider.

[Tom Capasso]

Just so you know, neither of my basses are neck-through (though I considered that for one of them).

 

I disagree about the tech-effect. I think it depends on the attitude in the shop and the attitude of the individual. You can't know about the individual, but sometimes the shop helps. For example, I met the folks at a few small shops and have been impressed by their passion. I know that basses from those places will be great, or they will make it so.

And I don't think they just set up - they review the fret work, finish, sound, etc. - the whole experience - because of that passion.

 

I agree that you don't have to care about the whole line - just the bit of wood that you are going to buy. I've done a lot of shopping in my time - with people working in various price ranges. I've been with someone in a GC when they decide they want a certain bass. Then I make the store person bring out every bass of that type in the stockroom, and the purchaser rarely buys the one from the wall, because the differences are so apparent. I don't have that happen with Lull, MTD, etc.

 

I think PUPs (and electronics) make a difference. I think the sound can be changed by lots of things, and I agree that there are some manufacturers that have their own sound. I love everything about MTD Americans, but I'm not wild about the sound. Same with Ken Smith American basses. Both of these companies make instruments that my hands love and my ears - not so much. For you, Fodera is well made but just isn't your sound.

 

And I'm not a fan of EMGs - I've played some basses that I thought "ewww - that's an EMG" and some that sounded great and I was surprised later. I think it's a "taste" thing, and like all taste things, some people have refined their tastes more than others.

 

But I do take your point that you don't have to spend big to be happy. I have a friend who plays a $500 Schecter that is light, feels smooth, and sounds like he wants. He has a Ric and some Fenders, and can afford something custom-made, but he likes going out with his Schecter. Fine by me!

 

Tom

[rumpelstiltskin.]

1: Boutique necks are usually though the body.... That's a judgment call.

 

quite simply, this is a false statement. it's not just that tom's 2 boutique basses are not neck-thru, there are quite a few more builders who make bolt-on necks. maybe 30 years ago when the boutique movement was starting to gain legs the majority made neck-thru instruments to separate themselves from prominent fender designs. in reality there are as many -- if not more -- boutique fender-inspired instruments as there are any other style. and most of the makers of boutique instruments also make their own distillation of the fender jazz design, because just about any one can sell.

 

2: True, specialty guitar makers may be more careful about the wood and provide a more consistent product. But again, I don't care about the entire line -- just the one I'm going to use.

 

valid point. but, a. that's general consensus around here and everywhere else, and has been covered around here (even in this thread already!) and everywhere else; and b. who made you the arbiter of this?

 

3: I think pu's can be overrated in general.

 

the irony here is that you've spent most of your words on why pickups are overrated. and the conclusion you came to is not that pickups are overrated, but expensive pickups are overrated. which, like, taste. everyone has an opinion.

 

4: I think the "technicians" of guitars are also overrated. Setting up a bass isn't rocket science. Anyone can learn it.

 

firstly, having worked reliability at a company that both manufactures high end instruments with very refined setup as well as commodity asian-sourced instruments, i have a lot of experience with guitar setup before shipping out to the store. i can tell you that the number reason for instrument returns is poor setup and inadequate finishing. obviously plenty of instruments are well set up and adequately finished before going out, but this isn't a phantom issue.

 

i've spent a lot of time trying to set my basses up. it's *not* conceptually difficult, but i'm at a point where there is little value to me in messing with it when i can take it to someone who is both way better and way faster than i am at adjusting it to my tastes. call it prosperity or whatever, but i'm not going to miss the $40 more than the time it would take me to test and check, test and check.

 

But the difference is still nominal and for those who might be ready to spend more than they have in the hopes of getting something REALLY special by buying a boutique or custom built bass, may want to reconsider.

 

and that's what it all comes down to. a value proposition. and you obviously don't see value in it. maybe others do, though, and despite your best efforts to factualize it the issue is purely subjective.

 

it's like you said, some people are looking for earth-moving differences between a production instrument and a boutique instrument. they may not be able to justify spending more than they have. but other people can afford to spend more, and for them the value of getting exactly what they want, done properly and skillfully, is worth the extra money. like everything, after a certain point you pay much more for incremental improvement. a ferrari isn't ten times the car that corvette is, but it can cost almost ten times the price. is it worth it to me? heck, i can't afford either.

[plangentmusic]

Just so you know, neither of my basses are neck-through (though I considered that for one of them).

 

I disagree about the tech-effect. I think it depends on the attitude in the shop and the attitude of the individual. You can't know about the individual, but sometimes the shop helps. For example, I met the folks at a few small shops and have been impressed by their passion. I know that basses from those places will be great, or they will make it so.

And I don't think they just set up - they review the fret work, finish, sound, etc. - the whole experience - because of that passion.

 

I agree that you don't have to care about the whole line - just the bit of wood that you are going to buy. I've done a lot of shopping in my time - with people working in various price ranges. I've been with someone in a GC when they decide they want a certain bass. Then I make the store person bring out every bass of that type in the stockroom, and the purchaser rarely buys the one from the wall, because the differences are so apparent. I don't have that happen with Lull, MTD, etc.

 

I think PUPs (and electronics) make a difference. I think the sound can be changed by lots of things, and I agree that there are some manufacturers that have their own sound. I love everything about MTD Americans, but I'm not wild about the sound. Same with Ken Smith American basses. Both of these companies make instruments that my hands love and my ears - not so much. For you, Fodera is well made but just isn't your sound.

 

And I'm not a fan of EMGs - I've played some basses that I thought "ewww - that's an EMG" and some that sounded great and I was surprised later. I think it's a "taste" thing, and like all taste things, some people have refined their tastes more than others.

 

But I do take your point that you don't have to spend big to be happy. I have a friend who plays a $500 Schecter that is light, feels smooth, and sounds like he wants. He has a Ric and some Fenders, and can afford something custom-made, but he likes going out with his Schecter. Fine by me!

 

Tom

 

I don't doubt the passion, and I don't doubt that they do good work, I just don't think it's that big of a deal. Set ups and fret filing and such is pretty basic stuff.

 

I agree there's more consistency with higher end stuff. Then again, the new upper line Fenders have been very consistent.

 

Yes, pu's make a difference. But not the most expensive are always better for every type of music. And how much do you want to spend? I agree with you on the Ken Smith basses. And yeah, it comes down to what you like. Though I have to say, I rarely hear people talking about THAT GREAT FODERA SOUND. They tend to be more impressed with the workmanship.

 

And yeah, the bass sound on the first Boston album KILLS. It's an imitation EB0 with a short scale and a warped neck! lol!

[Griffinator]

Had a friend of mine order from the Zon custom shop versus buying an off-the-shelf model. I've never, ever, ever heard a bass sound so good (in person) as that. It was, quite frankly, perfect for exactly what he wanted to do, which was play funk on a virtuoso level.

[zumabebop]

has a problem with the watch analogy: any $5 digital plastic wristwatch bought off the street will keep more accurate time than the most expensive complication. heck most kids of a certain age don't even wear watches as they use smartphones for that info. most watches over $100 are NOT bought to keep time...

as to the stock/custom question: we ALL started out on a "cheap" bass that was the most we could afford. as we learned the instrument we also learned its limitations. as we learned those limitations, we learned what it would cost to overcome those limitations. as we accrued the funds, we upgraded. and we ALL have the "if i won the lottery what would i get" "cost no object" dream instrument & rig. and we ALL get as close to that dream as finances & circumstances allow. some do it DIY & some by writing a check to someone else. if you can't tell the difference or can't justify the cost, don't buy it!

& if you come across an engineer/sound man who gets all pissy &/or confused if you've got anything but a p- or j-bass, tell him to fakk off! "you get paid to get my sound outta my bass in my hands. not your sound outta your bass in my hands."...

...i'm not saying, i'm just saying...

[butcherNburn]

If I won the lottery I still don't think I could justify to myself spending more that $2000 on a single instrument, and that $2000 is only if money was no object. I'm not saying I wouldn't spend more on other gear in total, just not a single item. Maybe it's because I grew up without much but the price tag will always be relevant.

[SteveC]

If I won the lottery I still don't think I could justify to myself spending more that $2000 on a single instrument, and that $2000 is only if money was no object. I'm not saying I wouldn't spend more on other gear in total, just not a single item. Maybe it's because I grew up without much but the price tag will always be relevant.

 

I have had a lot of basses over the years ranging from $300 - $2,500 and I think that after all that, for me, I can find a bass that will be just fine for my needs in the $600 - $1,000 range. I did notice differences in my basses, but I am not sure that, for me, it's enough to justify the price difference.

 

As with and difference/worth it discussion, to each their own. I have noting against what anyone plays. If someone wants/needs/feels a high end bass, that's great. If you can get all you need from something less, so be it.

 

Now I just need to take my own advice.

 

[TimR]

It depends on what you want the bass to be. An ornament or a tool?

 

Your $5 watch is a tool, not a good one, the battery will run out in 6 months (if the bottons don't drop off first) and a new battery will cost you twice what the watch is worth. I've got a bass like that. The strings are worth more than the bass.

 

Would you wear that watch to a fancy dinner at an expensive restraunt in your dress suit? YOu might as some sort of statement, or you might just not care.

 

What does the $2000+ bass say about you? Are you playing a very expensive wedding gig where your 1980s Charvel style pointy head bass or your 1970s roadworn fender would look a bit out of place? Are you playing a bar where your $2000+ bass would get damaged or go missing at the first break?

 

If I won the lottery and bought a $2000+ bass maybe I wouldn't be too woried about leaving it unattended on a stage for a few minutes (assuming I had my other $2000+ bass out back in reserve).

 

I suppose it goes back to the argumnet that a bass should be played and not hung in a museum or never leave the house.

[_Sweet Willie_]

Whatever. As long as I have the right to cover it with stickers, I don't care how much it cost. ;-}

 

But, as Tim indicates, the instrument was built to be played. I hope it gets played, whatever it's price.

 

Peace.

--SW

 

[butcherNburn]

What does the $2000+ bass say about you? Are you playing a very expensive wedding gig where your 1980s Charvel style pointy head bass or your 1970s roadworn fender would look a bit out of place?

 

Unless there are a bunch of bass players in the crowd I doubt many would notice unless the Charvel was in a neon color. If there were bass players in the crowd they would pester you with questions about said Charvel. I'm sure most people worthy of the gig could pull off a "starter pack" Ibanez with just a tweak or two to the setup. What does that say about us?

[SteveC]

I'm sure most people worthy of the gig could pull off a "starter pack" Ibanez with just a tweak or two to the setup. What does that say about us?

 

A lot, I think. Not that it's all bad, but it says something.

[TimR]

I think the point being made is that some of us can feel the difference between a starter bass and an expensive one. When I bought my current bass I couldn't feel the difference between an £800 bass and anything more expensive. I could tell the difference between the £800, £650, £350 and £180 basses.

 

The balance is when you can feel the difference between a £650 and an £800 one but know that difference isn't worth the extra.

 

The main point of the thread is to point out that just because it's a custom bass don't get fooled. The £350 basses have become a lot better.

[Davo-London]

Indeed it is. And I think that's all were allowed to play. Clearly certain members are suggesting that custom basses are for those who have more money than sense.

 

Similarly hand-made shoes are a waste of money as are bespoke suits.

 

I'm glad I don't think that way.

 

Davo

[Cthulhu Fhtagn]

Indeed it is. And I think that's all were allowed to play.

 

If you behave yourself and practice everyday, we'll let you play a jazz bass!!!

[jeremy c]

hmmm...my boutique bass

is an alder solid body instrument equipped with a one-piece maple neck with a rosewood fingerboard.

 

Big deal.

[picker]

I know a guy who makes acoustic guitars. He was an engineer who designed machines in his day job, and he got interested in luthery. When he decided to start building guitars, he designed machines to make the individual parts. None of them were CAD based, this was well before there was such a thing. His guitars are basically Martin dreadnaught replicas, and they make most currently produced Martins look a little sick. He isn't into mass-production, turning out maybe 12 guitars in a year, sometimes special orders, sometimes built on spec.

 

The reason I'm bringing him up is the hand-made vs. machine-made concept. If you ask him, he'll tell you no luthier can make parts with hand tools to the tolerances his machines can make them. Those tolerances make a BIG difference in the way an instrument sounds. So, hand-made isn't necessarily better than machine made, in fact, probably isn't.

 

I think that is why the lower price-point instruments are so much better today than they were back in the 60's & 70's, and a beginner can get a low-cost instrument that could serve him well for many years. My question about instruments like those made for Rondo and Xaviere is how durable they are, how well they will take changes in humidity and temperature, and the stress of being under stress from string tension, etc., over the course of time. The point made about selecting quality woods is, I think, very well made. The ability of the builder to pick woods, plain domestic or foreign exotic, that will stand the test of time, along with the guarantee of the maker standing behind his work, and the availability of custom options not available in commonly produced instruments are the things that can make custom instruments worth the elevated prices associated with them. Quality manufacture simply isn't the issue anymore, CAD machines have made it a moot point.

 

I might also add finishing in there too. A properly applied nitro finish is generally agreed to have better effects on the sound an instrument makes than a heavy acrylic finish does.

[Cthulhu Fhtagn]

The reason I'm bringing him up is the hand-made vs. machine-made concept. If you ask him, he'll tell you no luthier can make parts with hand tools to the tolerances his machines can make them. Those tolerances make a BIG difference in the way an instrument sounds. So, hand-made isn't necessarily better than machine made, in fact, probably isn't.

 

True, as far as it goes. Finishing tools in the hands of a skilled and experienced luthier produce a neck that is tapered correctly, has the appropriate radius, is silky smooth and machine-gun fast. In my hands, it doesn't even get the deck level.

[rumpelstiltskin.]

So, hand-made isn't necessarily better than machine made, in fact, probably isn't.

 

this is absolutely correct. try telling that to people who think point-to-point hand wiring is better than a PCB in an amp.

[jeremy c]

So, hand-made isn't necessarily better than machine made, in fact, probably isn't.

 

this is absolutely correct. try telling that to people who think point-to-point hand wiring is better than a PCB in an amp.

 

If it's me doing the point-to-point hand wiring, it definitely isn't better. I need to take a class in soldering.

[Howlin Hanson]

 

Similarly hand-made shoes are a waste of money as are bespoke suits.

 

I'm glad I don't think that way.

 

Davo

 

Davo, I can see value in hand-made shoes, custom-fitted to my feet. Not sure how much I would be willing to pay, though. More value to me than a custom bass. But then my feet frequently hurt.

 

I think high-end off-the-shelf basses will do for me, but those that want customs are helping the craftsmen feed their families.

[rumpelstiltskin.]

i've looked into custom shoes before.