Jazz Drummers That Don't Swing

[David Loving]

Something to think on - any player, regardless of any personal opinion of their 'artistry' or 'soulfulness' like I may have with Weckl, who has a mastery of their instrument on the level that Weckl has has something in common with Weckl - the ability to make each note clear and distinct. Their technique allows them to play very complex ideas cleanly at any tempo. It is a means to an end. While something like swing either exists or is absent in a person IMO, one can always learn to execute more distinctly, which sounds like it's at least part of the problem you're having. Have him focus on playing each ride note very distinctly. It may help.

 

The Kankster's best post ever.

[JeffLearman]

I disagree with those who said he can't learn it, though he may not learn it in time for this particular group to benefit.

 

I had a roommate who played bass, a respectable musician (well over my head). One day back in the early 80's he decided to learn funk & snap bass, to open up more gig ops and broaden his technique in general. I never saw such a whitebread approach: he got a book which used tab, and he sat down and worked it out, practiced. At first it sounded ridiculous. But he put in literally hours a day, and within a year, he was a truly funky dude.

 

True, funk isn't swing. But in either case, you have to feel it to get it. However, just because you can't feel it or get it at first doesn't mean you can't learn it. Nobody was born funky or swingin. It's learned. Some have a greater propensity than others, that's all.

[Michelle ggurl]

I dunno, Jazzwee, I've tried to coach players into becoming more versed in the feels I wanted in various projects, and it can work to a degree ... but it needs time, and in this case, I think SK's advice is right on the mark: find out what drummers this guy listens to, then tell him the drummers whose styles you want him to assimilate. A good musician is a good musician: and if the guy is good he can assimilate new styles.

 

None of us were born musicians in our genre of choice. Many of us have played, and still play, several genres, to a pro enough level to at least be called to play paying gigs in these various styles. I don't believe someone's "either born with swing or they ain't" ... but I believe, by adulthood, a player's either got the sensitivity to grow and REALLY absorb the finer points of authenticity in a style, or they don't. So what you want to ask yourself is, Does this guy have big ears.

 

My own case in point: there was a time when I couldn't play a montuno to save my ass. Shortly after taking private lessons with Rebeca Mauleon, and working my ass off at home, I came into one lesson and she said, "you don't sound like a jazz player trying to play Latin. You sound like a Latin player, playing Latin." That is one of the biggest compliments I've ever gotten in my life. It gives me hope that I have sensitivity enough to work on the finer points of a style and become competent at it.

 

However, back to your case ... since the guy is already an adult and is playing jazz, you have to decide if he's new to jazz swing and needs/wants your direction, or whether he just doesn't "get it" at some level. AND, you have to decide if you want to take the time to coach, or just find another guy. I vascillate on what I decide to do based on many factors, including personality, a player's sensitivity and how quick a study, what their strengths are, etc. If you don't want to wait and coach, you may have to find another drummer.

[Jazzwee]

No, you're not out of the mainstream at all. I didn't mean to suggest that you (or your idea of swing) was the problem (sorry if it came across that way), but if it was a matter of expectation, and you're drummer is a "Blakey" style swinger (which you don't favor), then it just might simply be a case of apples and oranges.

 

If you just want an Ellington style swing, any jazz drummer worth his weight in salt should be able to deliver a reasonably competent rendition for you, or at least lock it down and simply swing.

 

My sympathy's to you, as there are few things sadder than a jazz drummer that cannot swing.

 

 

No problem meisenhower. I'm just leery of anyone saying they're a Blakey style drummer because I've heard them make that excuse to justify uncontrolled downbeat banging on the bass drum. That's one drummer I fired long ago.

 

All I'm saying is that for normal swing stuff, I'd probably prefer a "quieter" kind of drumming. A good drummer that demonstrates the quiet style for me is Peter Erskine.

 

When we're doing funk or Latin, or uptempo jazz, then a different style is called for and truly wouldn't mind a Weckl sound. But the kind of jazz I'm talking has a singer. So you can imagine it's not going o be "modern".

 

I do however, favor playing a more modern style where the swing isn't in your face (like Brad Mehldau style). So in a trio setting it would be a little different.

 

There's a particular tempo, like 130bpm and below that really needs a hard swing. And that's the group's weakness. My way out has been to not call tunes at that tempo. I go higher tempo or go latin. Too bad because the audience wants swing.

 

Maybe I'm hoping against hope that there's something I can say to the drummer. It's really hard to swing your solo lines when the rhythm section isn't supportive.

 

[Jazzwee]

Jazzwee - only you know how he plays, so it's hard for a forum of outsiders to suggest anything.

 

The only thing you can do is ask the drummer who he listens to, and try to suggest drummers he needs to listen to. Otherwise, there isn't much you can suggest specifically to teach him to feel swing.

 

Knowing the drummer's style, he plays with a quiet sound, lots of dynamics that show a Peter Erskine influence, which I remember he mentioned once. So you would think that he'd be good at medium swing. And he is so good at the dynamics and playing all the other styles.

 

With my little knowledge, I'm guessing it's possibly a time issue (accuracy of the swing beat), which I admit is impossible to solve in the short run.

 

It's really hard to get the right kind of person. One guy swings well but plays way to loud. He has a little problem with dynamics.

 

Another guy has all the pluses on style but inadvertently speeds up. The current guy is the least problematic of the bunch, which is why it's hard to just give up.

 

Maybe if I get a recording of the gig tommorrow I'll post it and you guys can listen.

[Mark Schmieder]

Um, I've had the OPPOSITE problem the past two years, with younger players (even those under 21) "getting" swing, but older guys (older than I am, meaning mid-50's or older) being "old skool", playing by "feel" and being the trap set equivalent of a Berkeley "drum circle" happening.

 

Just saying.

 

As for how to deal with it, the best thing is to hand them some representative music, await their feedback and questions, and then guide them as best you can, hoping they are good listeners and fast learners.

 

I am constantly encountering genres I had never played before, as I do a lot of wedding and private gigs where "anything goes" and there are usually a set of dedicated requests in addition to our stock set list. A good player can pick up any style and at least fake their way through it well enough that the other players can maintain a convincing groove.

[Jazzwee]

I dunno, Jazzwee, I've tried to coach players into becoming more versed in the feels I wanted in various projects, and it can work to a degree ... but it needs time, and in this case, I think SK's advice is right on the mark: find out what drummers this guy listens to, then tell him the drummers whose styles you want him to assimilate. A good musician is a good musician: and if the guy is good he can assimilate new styles.

 

None of us were born musicians in our genre of choice. Many of us have played, and still play, several genres, to a pro enough level to at least be called to play paying gigs in these various styles. I don't believe someone's "either born with swing or they ain't" ... but I believe, by adulthood, a player's either got the sensitivity to grow and REALLY absorb the finer points of authenticity in a style, or they don't. So what you want to ask yourself is, Does this guy have big ears.

 

My own case in point: there was a time when I couldn't play a montuno to save my ass. Shortly after taking private lessons with Rebeca Mauleon, and working my ass off at home, I came into one lesson and she said, "you don't sound like a jazz player trying to play Latin. You sound like a Latin player, playing Latin." That is one of the biggest compliments I've ever gotten in my life. It gives me hope that I have sensitivity enough to work on the finer points of a style and become competent at it.

 

However, back to your case ... since the guy is already an adult and is playing jazz, you have to decide if he's new to jazz swing and needs/wants your direction, or whether he just doesn't "get it" at some level. AND, you have to decide if you want to take the time to coach, or just find another guy. I vascillate on what I decide to do based on many factors, including personality, a player's sensitivity and how quick a study, what their strengths are, etc. If you don't want to wait and coach, you may have to find another drummer.

 

You have pointed at a problem of the current crop of Jazz drummers coming out of school. No one survives in jazz so they mix up all the styles. And I do feel is the hardest one to grasp so they have a little weakness in this.

 

But the guy, being young (I think twenties), is willing to listen so I was hoping for some easy tidbits to pass. Perhaps there are none.

 

I want to emphasize though that the problem is subtle. He's doing all the proper swing elements but there's just some little thing missing in the feel. I just can't grasp it precisely.

 

But as a jazz player, you must know what I mean when you're trying to swing and you feel the rhythm section is against you. It's frustrating as heck.

 

BTW - I'm sure I'm one of those who play latin like a jazz guy I'm sure I need help.

[Jazzwee]

As for how to deal with it, the best thing is to hand them some representative music, await their feedback and questions, and then guide them as best you can, hoping they are good listeners and fast learners.

 

You may have given me an idea here. Maybe I find a drumming style that works for what we're doing and I just say "do this for this tune". It's probably less aggressive of an approach. I wouldn't be saying "you suck".

[Jazzwee]

Dup

[Michelle ggurl]

But as a jazz player, you must know what I mean when you're trying to swing and you feel the rhythm section is against you. It's frustrating as heck.

 

Word. It's frustrating in any feel to be fighting a rhythm section that is not locking for either bad time or because one or more of the rhythm players doesn't grasp the feel. I still wrestle with this on occasion ...

[Tim Wood]

I think this book is essential to any jazz drummer. The problem is that not many people know of it and it's expensive but it gets you swinging!

 

The title is The Essence of Jazz Drumming,

http://www.papergiant.com/jimblackley/store.html

 

Click on the publication info pdf and scroll down.

 

This book starts the drummer off at playing quarter notes on the ride playing a 40bpm blues! Really slow but it improves the drummers time and swing. It progresses to concepts used by Elvin and Tony, but get's you started on the essentials of swing- an emphasis on articulation with a strong quarter note pulse on the ride and ghosted skip beat- it goes on from there.

 

Highly recommended!

[Bobadohshe]

...Shortly after taking private lessons with Rebeca Mauleon...

 

I want some.

[BP3]

It don't mean a thing....

[Jazzwee]

I think this book is essential to any jazz drummer. The problem is that not many people know of it and it's expensive but it gets you swinging!

 

The title is The Essence of Jazz Drumming,

http://www.papergiant.com/jimblackley/store.html

 

Click on the publication info pdf and scroll down.

 

This book starts the drummer off at playing quarter notes on the ride playing a 40bpm blues! Really slow but it improves the drummers time and swing. It progresses to concepts used by Elvin and Tony, but get's you started on the essentials of swing- an emphasis on articulation with a strong quarter note pulse on the ride and ghosted skip beat- it goes on from there.

 

Highly recommended!

 

LOL - I don't think I'm going to buy an expensive book for my drummer. I'd just get a new drummer.

 

Come to think of it though, how do you teach swing via a book? Does it come with a DVD? It's like the other thread where they think putting dotted rhythms on a page is enough to describe swing.

 

[Jazzwee]

BTW - I have a theory about what makes a solid swing.

 

I played with my teacher once and made a recording. And then I analyzed the waveforms and what I noticed is that to have a good solid pulse, the swing eighth (the 'let' in tri-p-let) needs to be rock solid and constant.

 

The other beats can drag or get closer to the top and changes the feel but the solid feeling of falling down seems to be maintained if that swing pulse doesn't waver.

 

Which also explains why it requires such perfect control of time to really swing well.

 

To prove this point, a friend of mine made a Midi and varied the drag on the downbeats but kept the swing pulse constant and true enough, a little drag on downbeats made the swing more realistic. But the swing eighth had to be right in the exact spot. I thought it was quite revealing because, if true, it means that control of swing means absolute control of that swing eighth as well as control of drag of the other elements.

[Tim Wood]

I wasn't obviously saying you should buy it!

 

Just for you to recommend to any drummers serious about improving their swing. There is a cd that's not included with the book, but an add on which goes from 40bpm through 340 bpm blues and rhythm changes. It's called Meet the Bass Player by a drummer over here in the UK.

 

You're taught to sing out loud the triplets while playing to internalise the swing pulse to really get it ingrained into your being and to also know where you are in exactly you are in the form without thinking about it. That's how I was taught.

 

I went for a few lessons with one of the top drummers/percussionists in the UK and within a few weeks he really got me swinging and I'm no natural drummer at all but the method used as prescribed can make anybody sound good! If I can swing then anyone can!

 

I'd probably say it is possible to teach swing from a book, nothing beats listening to the masters as in anything but it provides very clear instructions about how to swing and the science behind it. The educational market is saturated with drum dvds and books but this is the best by far on jazz drumming.

 

[Jazzwee]

I wasn't obviously saying you should buy it!

 

Just for you to recommend to any drummers serious about improving their swing. There is a cd that's not included with the book, but an add on which goes from 40bpm through 340 bpm blues and rhythm changes. It's called Meet the Bass Player by a drummer over here in the UK.

 

You're taught to sing out loud the triplets while playing to internalise the swing pulse to really get it ingrained into your being and to also know where you are in exactly you are in the form without thinking about it. That's how I was taught.

 

I went for a few lessons with one of the top drummers/percussionists in the UK and within a few weeks he really got me swinging and I'm no natural drummer at all but the method used as recommended can make anybody sound good! If I can swing then anyone can!

 

I'd probably say it is possible to teach swing from a book, nothing beats listening to the masters as in anything but it provides very clear instructions about how to swing and the science behind it. The educational market is saturated with drum dvds and books but this is the best by far on jazz drumming.

 

LOL - I knew that but the image of me handing a drummer a "drummers book" would have been interesting to see. Maybe I get punched in the face

 

On a personal note though, I thought it's important to understand what drummers do so I've watched a lot of drumming videos on Youtube. At least it's good to know the basics.

 

At a jam, the drummer took a break and at least I could do the ride cymbal. That was useful. Would have been nice to do a fill or two. If the book wasn't so costly, I'd get it just for educational reasons.

 

Do you actually play drums Tim or is this just to aid your piano playing?

[BP3]

I'd say that much of a good swing from a jazz drummer comes from the ghost notes on the snare.

[Tim Wood]

I played drums before I played piano. Mostly piano playing now but that can change. But every serious pianist could do with knowing the basics of the drummers function in the band which you know.

 

In rock drums the time is dictated by the snare and bass drum. In jazz drumming, it's the opposite way round. It's the ride and hi-hat that dictates the time which is why I disagree with tinder arts. The ghosts on the snare is the comping but not the swing. The comping on the snare complements the soloist, enhances the groove and adds variety to the time.

 

A drummer could play just quarter notes all night and it'd swing if they do their homework. Listening to Jimmy Cobb on So What proves it.

 

The same author has a good article with words of wisdom for musicians in general, drummers or not- even though it's directed at drummers!

Article

[Dana.]

Weckl is a good musician (or Chick wouldn't have used him) who 'swings' in a fusion style - meaning, the rockier elements in his playing mar the authenticity of the swing feel. So he's not an example of a swinging drummer, because high energy fusion (and even the way the drums are tuned) can effect the looseness, openness or vastness of a swing feel.

This is on point.

[EscapeRocks]

Dammit.... I thought this was gonna be a topic about drummers and their hot wives

 

 

Ok back to my nap

 

 

[Dana.]

I don't know if this qualifies as swing, but drumming doesn't get any better than this.

 

[video:youtube]

[I-missRichardTee]

I actually played one record date with Sir Purdie.. a long time ago

He is a little different than swing as jazz people think of it

but his Shuffles kills- I doubt anyone does his version of a Shuffle as well.

And Jimmy McGriff used Purdie.

 

Here is an excerpt from a teacher of mine

 

The simple answer to the syncopation question is this. Jazz syncopation is produced by a specific time conception and is a byproduct of the behavior produced by it.

 

Why has there been a problem in this area with jazz education? I am going to make a very bold statement now, but the good news is that the problem is about to be solved. Many of todays jazz educators have been teaching jazz with the wrong time conception.

 

This is in no way meant to be disrespectful of the jazz educators, as most of what they teach has been a tremendous contribution to the music and to the young people studying it. The fact remains, however, there is something lacking, as pointed out by Hal Galper.

 

What is polymetric time exactly? It is a time conception that results from several meters in different tempi intersecting with different bar lines, producing a natural accentuation behavior. It is this behavior that produces what is commonly referred to as jazz syncopation. How does that effect ones playing you might ask? It makes you pat your foot and keep time differently, producing a different kind of body rhythm that is a major factor in the playing of Jazz. This has a direct effect on the music and phrasing played over it.

 

The mistake, up to now, has been an attempt to reproduce this effect through feelings and emotion, which in turn has produced an unnatural way of playing that has students trying to imitate swing rather than actually producing it.

 

This imitative approach has led to many unnatural practices currently being taught in some jazz education environments that are, in reality, detrimental to students. I have often referred to these practices as theory without reality.

 

An example of this is the encouragement, in some educational settings, for students to practice with a metronome clicking on the second and fourth beat. I can appreciate how this came into existence through teachers trying to help students who are having trouble with swing. In reality, however, this practice, pretty much, guarantees that a student will never learn to swing and at best produces an unnatural way of playing that has been driving the jazz audience further and further away from the music.

 

This reality can be appreciated if one looks at the history of how this two and four accentuation came into existence in the first place. This originated in the African American Church with people hand clapping to the music. If one observes this practice, which still exists to this day, one cannot help but observe that there is a whole body rhythm involved in this as well as an attitude, neither of which can be produced by a metronome. Actually, a metronome clicking on two and four is the antithesis of the feel and conception of this.

 

This hand clapping experience is what led to the jazz drummers using a sock cymbal and developing the cymbal beat that goes along with it. This brings up another misconception that needs to be addressed about the ride cymbal beat. How many times have you heard this described as ting ting-a-ting? I have even heard it expressed this way by a young drummer trying to justify the reason he had turned away from jazz and embraced rock and roll. He expressed this by saying, people are tired of ting ting-a-ting. The reality is that with all of the great jazz drummers, it has never been ting ting-a-ting.

 

This is yet another theory without reality being perpetrated on young musicians. The cymbal beat, from the older jazz, could best be described as starting on the and of the fourth beat and saying something like, KA chow chick, KA chow chick etc. If you sing this or play it, you will realize that it produces an entirely different feel and time conception than the ill conceived idea of ting ting-a-ting.

[Jazzwee]

I played drums before I played piano. Mostly piano playing now but that can change. But every serious pianist could do with knowing the basics of the drummers function in the band which you know.

 

In rock drums the time is dictated by the snare and bass drum. In jazz drumming, it's the opposite way round. It's the ride and hi-hat that dictates the time which is why I disagree with tinder arts. The ghosts on the snare is the comping but not the swing. The comping on the snare complements the soloist, enhances the groove and adds variety to the time.

 

A drummer could play just quarter notes all night and it'd swing if they do their homework. Listening to Jimmy Cobb on So What proves it.

 

The same author has a good article with words of wisdom for musicians in general, drummers or not- even though it's directed at drummers!

Article

 

Based on the little I know, I agree with you. It's the ride cymbal that sets the swing feel. It has to be rock solid. Some drummers skimp on the ride cymbal so they can be more open on textures (I guess the Weckl argument), and admitedly it is very easy for me to get lost on that. Reminds me on some really complex jazz drumming on the Yamaha keyboard patches (Yamaha XS). Fancy but no groove.

 

Since my pulse has to key of the swing eighth of the drummer, I've got the feel that all the time. At least that's me.

 

However, as the tempo goes up, then I'll end up focusing on the downbeat anyway since it's pretty difficult for me to hear the swing eighth.

[Jazzwee]

hey missRichardTee, for a moment there I thought I got you because you sounded like Mike Longo with the polymetric stuff (I got his DVD that demonstrated -- but no explanation).

 

But then you turned it all around and said that jazz drumming is not "ting ting-a-ting". Wow that's a big statement. Not sure about all the tings (I was calling it 'ding' earlier), but to me the most important is the "-a-" in "ting ting-A-ting". However you impart that, how can the drummer swing without emphasizing that? At least I can't feel it otherwise.

 

When pianists play solo piano, we often imply swing with a pickup beat (4+) and that's equivalent to the "-a-".

 

Tons of Peter Erskine drum videos on the net and he clearly sets the basic drum pattern as "ting ting-a-ting". Although I grant you that I think it's only the "-a-" that's critical the rest just frames the subivisions.

 

"ting ting-a-ting" is a triplet eighth pattern that would have fit in the understanding of polymetric stuff under Mike Longo's logic (which he claims he got from Dizzy Gillespie.

[Jazz+]

"KA chow chick sounds like the sound of the playing on the hi hat cymbals starting on the "+" (a pickup to the down)

"ting ting-A-ting" sounds like the sound of playing the ride cymbal starting on 1 (a down without a pickup)

 

 

[Jazzwee]

I think there's a difference though from a soloist swinging and the drummer. The drums have to work with perfect subdivisions. A pianist swinging with triplet feel sounds hokey.

 

Interesting how you say "KA chow chick". It implies you accent the swing eighth (pickup). Now do drummers actually do this? I don't know myself but I asked that question earlier.

[Jazz+]

Jazzwee,

 

I don't see how you can help him improve. I think he needs to have a lesson or two with a good jazz drummer who has big enough ears to understand what the guy is doing wrong and then has the ability to explain and demonstrate how it's done. Maybe there is somebody good on Youtube breaking it down in a way that can demontsrate how to swing the ride but it would probably be better helpful to have an expert listen to what the guy is doing wrong in the first place and then try to show the right way to play the ride.

[Jazz+]

 

"lang, spang-a-lang"

 

 

[Jazz+]

moved