Hammond XK-3c or KeyB Duo MKIII

[juanbastonoeste]

Hey all,

 

I currently play an XK-1 with lower manual midi setup, and I'm trying to decide whether to buy an XK-3 system or the new KeyB duo. I play jazz and blues, kick bass most of the time and two manuals is very important to me. I'm leaning slightly towards the KeyB at the moment - I like how it transports as one piece and everything I've heard so far is impressively authentic and true to the original. On the other hand, the ability to tweak the sound of the XK system to your liking is a huge plus (I think it might make the Xk3 a more versatile instrument as you can really have a dynamic sound for different playing situations). I realize that I really can't go wrong with either one here, but which one would you guys recommend I get? I'd especially like to hear from anyone who has played both clones. Money is not the deciding factor here, as I'm looking to buy something I'll be happy to play for the rest of my life. Thanks for your help!

[HammondDave]

If money and the schlepping factor were moot, then I would go with the KeyB. I loved playing my xk3 system for several years, but the Key B is much closer to a real Hammond console in sound and player interface.

[David Loving]

Welcome to the forum. Alas I have not played both, just the XK3 System. Here's hoping you find the right instrument for you!

[Outkaster]

[keyClicker]

The tweakability is a heavy argument.

If you are used to the Xk parameters you know that.

 

Besides, XkSystem is prettier Imo...

[juanbastonoeste]

In terms of portability, I was feeling like there's probably not a big different between hauling around the KeyB and the XK system. The KeyB is heavier than either of the XK boards (around 60 lbs I think), but at least the whole organ can be transported in one case. Not having actually lifted a KeyB though, it's hard to say...

[LX88]

When I heard the Key B boards at NAMM nearly two years ago, there was no question in my mind that this was a must have. Particularly when Joey D. demonstrated the leslie sim to me.

 

To hear it used in that way from someone who really knows WHEN and HOW to use the leslie effect, I would have to say that I have actually have not heard it surpassed by any other sim.

 

I did A/B the Ventilator and the NUMA sim a few months ago and for what I need there really wasn't a heck of a lot of difference. The big difference to me was that the Vent had a horn level adjustment which quickly tames some of the shrillness with certain speakers.

 

While the Ventilator does interact differently with different boards, with a Key B or Numa it simply becomes unneccesary.

 

Also, the chorus vibrato on anything with a Key B engine (including Numa) is going to be hard to beat.

 

I did go with the Numa because of portability, but if you need dual manuals the Key B is probably going to remain competitive with anything else that might come along.

 

[ZeroZero]

I had a keyb duo for several years - mk one. I had tech issues and poor back up from Elvio (the maker) no manual . The thing is really heavy and the case handles break easy. It sounded good and had the right controls (which would sometimes not operate correctly). Because it was SO heavy it never went anywhere. When I did use it I found the action of the keyboard superb - best I have ever heard I also found the sound really good.

I ended up using my B4 VST organ and an electro 2. One thing the mk1 did not have were presets - which I missed. The drawbars are better than drawbuttons but I decided to get used to them.

I just bought a C2 and am waiting delivery, the sounds are not quite as good (Subjectively) but they are so close as to not worry me. One thing I don't like about the B4 is the fast speed for the Leslie which is a little too fast for my taste and I think there is no tweekability here.

 

Caveat: I have never owned a real Hammond, and I suspect they all have personalities.

 

Zero

[LX88]

I actually have wondered about tech support for the Key B, which is actually another reason I went with a Numa instead. The Numa has a 2 year full warantee by the way.

 

I know there were problems with the original Diversi. So if there are issues with the Key B, who is going to service it when Elvio is in Italy? This is a very small company.

 

I love the Key B sound, but when I was offered the single manual version at NAMM, I still went with the Numa. And so far I haven't had any problems with the Numa.

 

The Numa presets are a little weird.... you can't go back and forth between leslie sim and non leslie sim presets.The presets seem to relate to drawbar settings for ther most part.

 

The Key B solo doesn't have presets anyway from what I recall. And it is significantly heavier than the Numa.

 

Still, I can't live without the chorus vibrato and leslie sim of the Key B engine, even if it is in the Numa package. And so far, there seems to be nothing else like it on the market.

[Jim Alfredson]

I played a KeyB Duo mkII in Italy for two gigs through a custom Leslie. I liked the tone a lot. The layout was intuitive. The keys felt pretty good. What I didn't like is the latency. I measured just over 11ms of latency. That combined with the lack of a dealer network is the US are the major negatives against the KeyB, imo.

 

The XK3, on the other hand, has a latency of around 6ms according to my measurements. I assume the XK3c is on par with that, perhaps even quicker due to the increased DSP. Yes, it is very tweakable (I just made a new tonewheel set based on my '54 Hammond C2... it's quite mellow compared to the one I made for my '58 B3). And yes, it looks great on stage (which is important).

 

Don't forget the new Hammond SK2. Half the weight of the XK Pro System and with the extra onboard sounds as well. Might be worth a look for you.

[juanbastonoeste]

Thanks for all the great advice so far, everyone. Lot's of good points to consider. You know it's funny about the sk2, because when I heard it had the same sound engine as the Xk-3c, I thought this would surely be an ideal board for me.

 

Howevever, when I went to my local store to try it out, I have to say I was quite disappointed with the sound of the organ! I don't know exactly how to describe it, but it just lacked the same depth, warmth, and authenticity of the xk-1 and xk-3c. At first, I simply attributed this to the poor amplification system at the store, but the next day, I played it through my Leslie 3300 and still couldn't get the damn thing to sound good! Yes, percussion is better, as is C/V, and even the leslie sim. However, the raw tone of the organ seems to be missing something vitale. I very much wanted to love this board, and the fact that I could not achieve a sound at least as good as my XK-1, even through a leslie, really turned me off. I'm certainly willing to give the sk2 a try but I'm assuming that it will have the exact same organ sounds as the sk1, unless they've done some tweaking since the sk1 was released. And don't get me wrong, the organ is by no means "bad" for what it is. In fact it's quite a nice organ given the other sounds that exist on the board. However, my experience so far has been that Hammond sound on the SK1 is definitely inferior to the XK series, especially when it comes to the raw tone of the organ. But if you think about it, if the SK organ really did sound "identical" to the XK-3c, or just as good, it seems it would substantially cannibalize the xk series...

[Jim Alfredson]

Hmmm... I thought the organ sounded very very good. I was playing it through the Leslie 2121 stationary speaker.

 

I won't be able to compare it to the XK3 until I get one (hopefully soon) but if you still have access to an XK1 you should do a side by side comparison.

[Joe Muscara]

I played a KeyB Duo mkII in Italy for two gigs through a custom Leslie. I liked the tone a lot. The layout was intuitive. The keys felt pretty good. What I didn't like is the latency. I measured just over 11ms of latency. That combined with the lack of a dealer network is the US are the major negatives against the KeyB, imo.

 

The XK3, on the other hand, has a latency of around 6ms according to my measurements. I assume the XK3c is on par with that, perhaps even quicker due to the increased DSP.

Interestingly, they just posted latency tests on the FB page for the KeyB Organ module (which I would expect to be similar) and they did not record a latency nearly as high.

 

https://www.facebook.com/pages/KeyB-Organ/166116646869

[juanbastonoeste]

Yeah, there actually happened to be an XK-1 on the floor right next to the SK1 so I was switching back and forth between the two through the 3300 and the XK-1 sounded fuller, warmer, and generally more ballsy. Maybe it's just the sound I've gotten used through playing it all these years.

 

In terms of the latency that you mentioned, it that actually noticeable while playing the instrument (I assume your talking about a delay between pressing a key and hearing a tone)? And how would you rate the KeyB against the XK-3 system for portability? Did the KeyB seem like a reasonable lift for one person?

 

Thanks

[Jim Alfredson]

The KeyB is quite light. One person could do it but it is kinda bulky. That's gonna get you more than the weight. The nice thing about the Pro XK System is the two pieces are relatively light and are easier to haul / place separately.

 

I noticed a disconnect between the KeyB and myself. So the next time it was supplied as backline, I measured the latency. It was enough that it made rhythmic passages awkward for me. Your mileage may vary.

 

I can't comment on the new KeyB module. Technology is advancing every day. Is it using the exact same CPU / motherboard / RAM / Soundcard as the regular KeyB?

[Aidan]

One of the reasons I went for the XK system over the SK2 was the flexibility of still being able to use the XK3/c as a single tier in a two or three board setup.

[KRK]

ciao,

 

just for have complete information, I asked Elvio for a latency test.

please feel free to take a look here:

http://www.divshare.com/image/15572474-beb

 

as I told in other thread, I never had problems with latency with keybduo (and I never noticed this issue among KeyBDuo users in Italy), so maybe the one Jim used had some kind of problem?

 

in the test you will see the keyBDuo mkII, the hammond B3 and a number of others keyboards (anonimous), that are new organ clones, old generation organ clones and a couple of new generation synth.

 

test was done in same conditions for all the "machines".

 

take care

 

Marco

[Al Coda]

ciao,

 

just for have complete information, I asked Elvio for a latency test.

please feel free to take a look here:

http://www.divshare.com/image/15572474-beb

 

as I told in other thread, I never had problems with latency with keybduo (and I never noticed this issue among KeyBDuo users in Italy), so maybe the one Jim used had some kind of problem?

 

in the test you will see the keyBDuo mkII, the hammond B3 and a number of others keyboards (anonimous), that are new organ clones, old generation organ clones and a couple of new generation synth.

 

test was done in same conditions for all the "machines".

 

take care

 

Marco

 

Now I´m curious which keyboards are related to which of the other diagrams.

 

A.C.

 

[KRK]

ciao,

 

just for have complete information, I asked Elvio for a latency test.

please feel free to take a look here:

http://www.divshare.com/image/15572474-beb

 

take care

 

Marco

 

Now I´m curious which keyboards are related to which of the other diagrams.

 

A.C.

 

I think we'll never know

 

 

PS: to be precise, Elvio DID NOT make this test himself, but a third part (with no interest in any of the analized machines) realized it.

 

PPS: I don't know the keyboards/synts/hammond clones used for this test, but when you see latency = 1 or 2 ms, just think that the MIDI add about 1 ms to the latency, so that should be analog synth (normally less than 2 ms. latency) with midi....

[ZeroZero]

B3-er

"The KeyB is quite light" Comapred to an elephant, I suppose? I would add one word to this "not"

 

I never had latency issues with my Mk1. Best to find out what's going on inside the KeyB before you buy - what processor, what operating system, (used to be Linux) how much Ram, what sound card. It may look the part but its still a computer.

 

Is there an owners club? Yahoo group? If not then someone should start one.

Maybe there are pics somewhere of the internal workings?

[ZeroZero]

juanbastonoeste - I was wonmdering why are you not considering a C2?

[mate stubb]

It may look the part but its still a computer.

 

KeyB USED to be a general purpose computer running the organ software on Linux.

 

Then Elvio switched to dedicated DSP, maybe that was the Mk 2?

 

I would expect the differences in latency experienced might boil down to which version you played?

[Jim Alfredson]

So what was the testing procedure for those images? A real B3 does not have 0 latency. There is SOME delay between hitting the key and getting a sound and that delay increases ever so slightly as the key makes contact with all 9 busbars.

 

Now if we're talking about how quickly the sound appears once contact is made, then yes it's instantaneous with a B3. But it seems to me those graphs are not taking into account the key travel. And that's important because it (obviously) adds to the delay. You can't play the instrument without pressing the keys.

 

Maybe the KeyB Duo I played had an issue or needed it's OS updated or something. I'm pretty sure it was a MkII. It was brand new.

 

All I can tell you guys is what I experienced. And when I played it for the first time, I felt the delay between my fingers and the sound. And it seemed to get worse if I played dense, very rhythmic chord patterns.

 

I'm going back to Europe next week. Maybe I'll run into another one.

[HammondDave]

Where are you playing? Heading to Norway again? I will be in Oslo for two more weeks.

[KRK]

Is there an owners club? Yahoo group? If not then someone should start one.

 

yes there is a yahoo group (italian - english language):

http://it.groups.yahoo.com/group/keybclub/

 

 

 

Best to find out what's going on inside the KeyB before you buy - what processor, what operating system, (used to be Linux) how much Ram, what sound card. It may look the part but its still a computer.

 

KeyBDuo MkII & new mkIII have no computer inside (different from the mkI).

they have a DSP system.

 

ciao!

[KRK]

So what was the testing procedure for those images? A real B3 does not have 0 latency. There is SOME delay between hitting the key and getting a sound and that delay increases ever so slightly as the key makes contact with all 9 busbars.

 

Now if we're talking about how quickly the sound appears once contact is made, then yes it's instantaneous with a B3. But it seems to me those graphs are not taking into account the key travel. And that's important because it (obviously) adds to the delay. You can't play the instrument without pressing the keys.

 

Maybe the KeyB Duo I played had an issue or needed it's OS updated or something. I'm pretty sure it was a MkII. It was brand new.

 

All I can tell you guys is what I experienced. And when I played it for the first time, I felt the delay between my fingers and the sound. And it seemed to get worse if I played dense, very rhythmic chord patterns.

 

I'm going back to Europe next week. Maybe I'll run into another one.

 

 

ciao Jim!!!!

 

(sorry for my English!!!!!)

 

I don't know the method used for this test, but all the instruments have been measured in the same way.

 

the KeyBDuo is not the best of all in term of latency, but please note that they also did the measurement of the key distance from zero to "on" (sound).

 

so, for example, keybduo keys start "sounding" after a pressure of 2,5 mm.

another machine (KB4) has 1ms of latency, but keys start "sounding" after 6 mm!!!!!!!

 

so, in this case it is useless to have low latency if the sound start after the entire range of the key (I don't know what is the KB4).

 

I'm thinking at Joey DefFrancesco "trilling" (I saw him at the Blue Note in Milan with the KeyBDuo)....

When Joey trills with the thumb, think about how many notes LESS would sound, if the keys distance to "on" would be up to 6 mm.

 

so, in this way 1 ms latency (but 6 mm before having the sound) is worse than having 5 ms and 2.5 mm.

 

by the way, I asked Elvio the name of other "machines" used in this test, but obviosly he will not tell us!

 

take care

 

Marco

[Al Coda]

So what was the testing procedure for those images?

 

No idea.

 

A real B3 does not have 0 latency. There is SOME delay between hitting the key and getting a sound and that delay increases ever so slightly as the key makes contact with all 9 busbars.

 

Right,- but I downloaded the graphs and if you look at these closer,- on top of each graph to the right there´s a entry called "start" and a icon for "key-down" specified w/ a value in ms.

My interpretation is, that´s the time passing by until key contact is closed when you hit a key.

So it seems, key contact closed to audio out was the test.

For KeyB it is 2.5ms and the value of latency is 5ms,- so to me that´s 7.5ms in a total.

 

For the Hammond, for key-down/contact(s) closed it says "each organ could be different".

Not sure if that´s refering to all 9 contacts or only the 1st one.

 

All I can tell you guys is what I experienced. And when I played it for the first time, I felt the delay between my fingers and the sound. And it seemed to get worse if I played dense, very rhythmic chord patterns.

 

With no doubt you might be right.

If it´s 7.5 ms in a total, a sensitive player might be confused,- and because you mentioned dense and very rhythmic chord patterns making it worse,- the real world overall latency might be much higher because you don´t play one note only and it could point to MIDI jitter too, or slow behaviour of keyboard matrix electronics or slow reaction of the soundengine to MIDI.

 

A.C.

 

 

 

[Al Coda]

 

so, for example, keybduo keys start "sounding" after a pressure of 2,5 mm.

another machine (KB4) has 1ms of latency, but keys start "sounding" after 6 mm!!!!!!!

 

 

Marco

 

Ooops, sorry, you´re right !

It´s mm not ms for key-down.

My fault, my eyes ...

 

A.C.

[juanbastonoeste]

I hadn't considered the C2 simply because its lack of drawbars is unacceptable for what I do. However, I do think the C2 sounds excellent through my leslie 3300 (not quite as good as the XK-3c but it's a small margin), and I just found this midi drawbar device from Ocean Beach Digital (http://www.oceanbeachdigital.com/Site/Home.html) which I guess has been available for some time. Quite pricey at $300, but if they work seamlessly, it could be a game changer. Has anyone here tried this drawbar system with the C2?

 

I'm going to be moving around a lot over the next fews years, and space limitations could be an issue, so the extreme portability and compact size of the nord is very attractive (especially since I'm already hauling around my 3300 to most gigs). Makes me wish I actually cared for the organ sounds on the SK2!

[Dglavko]

I hadn't considered the C2 simply because its lack of drawbars is unacceptable for what I do. However, I do think the C2 sounds excellent through my leslie 3300 (not quite as good as the XK-3c but it's a small margin), and I just found this midi drawbar device from Ocean Beach Digital (http://www.oceanbeachdigital.com/Site/Home.html) which I guess has been available for some time. Quite pricey at $300, but if they work seamlessly, it could be a game changer. Has anyone here tried this drawbar system with the C2?

 

 

I have a C1 3300 and OB series 1 drawbars and think they work great, although I use Velcro instead of the suction cups as the older ob's sat a bit high for my tastes with the suction cups

 

I'm going to be moving around a lot over the next fews years, and space limitations could be an issue, so the extreme portability and compact size of the nord is very attractive (especially since I'm already hauling around my 3300 to most gigs). Makes me wish I actually cared for the organ sounds on the SK2!